Is jail really the smart solution for speeding?
Discussion
Alex_225 said:
That's my thinking on it as well.
I'm not saying what the guy did wasn't stupid and dangerous but it strikes me as them making an example of the guy.
You've hit the nail on the head.I'm not saying what the guy did wasn't stupid and dangerous but it strikes me as them making an example of the guy.
But.. is that a bad thing? There have been numerous cases on here of people doing things that didn't happen to cause any accidents or whatever at the time, but were at such extremes of behaviour that the only logical outcome would be that the justice system would make an example of them to others.
I would argue that if this guy going to jail for 4 months stops 10 people who would've otherwise had a blast themselves - possibly with much more dire outcomes than this guy - because they don't want to go to prison themselves, then it is a net positive result for society.
Looking at the punishment in isolation misses the wider point of justice needing to be seen to be coming down hard on outliers. If you do those kinds of speeds on the public road and get caught the circumstances effectively become secondary to sending a message to others.
Is it proportionate? Not really. Does it send a message to other would-be mega speeders? Absolutely.
StottyEvo said:
A burst of acceleration on an empty arrow straight in good conditions with good visibility from an extremely experienced rider warrants 4months in prison... I can only assume there is more to this than the article lets on!
Experience counts for nothing in court. The offence applies one common standard for all from learner to the most experienced.He is testing a bike that he has concerns about, it being twenty years old, sat in a garage for 8 years with a rusty tank & running problems.
Article said:
He admitted driving dangerously
There are enough cases that have been through the Scottish courts for him to know a likely sentence for his actions. he went ahead regardless (effectively sticking a couple of fingers up to the courts). He can't be surprised by his current predicament.
vonhosen said:
Experience counts for nothing in court. The offence applies one common standard for all from learner to the most experienced.
He is testing a bike that he has concerns about, it being twenty years old, sat in a garage for 8 years with a rusty tank & running problems.
Which is just ridiculous. He is testing a bike that he has concerns about, it being twenty years old, sat in a garage for 8 years with a rusty tank & running problems.
vonhosen said:
There are enough cases that have been through the Scottish courts for him to know a likely sentence for his actions. he went ahead regardless (effectively sticking a couple of fingers up to the courts). He can't be surprised by his current predicament.
There's no doubt he was thoughtless, the issue is how draconian our legal system is locking up people for something like this. It is obviously not a deterrent and just creates another problem, arguably a bigger one.vonhosen said:
Experience counts for nothing in court. The offence applies one common standard for all from learner to the most experienced.
Surely pursuit vehicles should be classed as driving dangerously if that was the case though?After all, it's only their experience that separates their driving at speed from ours?
StottyEvo said:
A burst of acceleration on an empty arrow straight in good conditions with good visibility from an extremely experienced rider warrants 4months in prison... I can only assume there is more to this than the article lets on!
Doesn't matter how experienced he was or what the conditions were, he was doing over 2 and a half times the speed limit, he was just so far outside the limit, at that speed his experience doesnt matter, you are relying then on Doris not turning out, nobody crossing the road on foot, escaped sheep etc.Not sure prison is the answer but it might have an impact on others.
Am sure loads of bikers (and some drivers) get away with that kind of speed daily, I hear them down the bypass on sportsbikes really winding them out, they must be hitting those kind of speeds and I can see how compelling it is, but each time it is a lottery of getting caught like him or ending up hurt or worse, those are the risks.
Not sure what he was on if it was 20 years old but A modern Sportsbike will pass 150 mph in what, ten seconds or less, so from a rolling start at 60, must be what six to seven, really is just a quick burst isnt it !
Is the fact he's a motorcross champion jaundicing your view a bit OP? What if it was a fat chav on a 20 year old bike wearing a t shirt and pair of jeans. Can't you see that it's the fact that this guy was more experienced that actually counted against him.
He'll serve nowhere near his 4 months, and it'll be in some low category prison probably mixing with young lads who have breached their ASBO or some public order offence.
He'll serve nowhere near his 4 months, and it'll be in some low category prison probably mixing with young lads who have breached their ASBO or some public order offence.
yonex said:
vonhosen said:
Experience counts for nothing in court. The offence applies one common standard for all from learner to the most experienced.
He is testing a bike that he has concerns about, it being twenty years old, sat in a garage for 8 years with a rusty tank & running problems.
Which is just ridiculous. He is testing a bike that he has concerns about, it being twenty years old, sat in a garage for 8 years with a rusty tank & running problems.
Durzel said:
Alex_225 said:
That's my thinking on it as well.
I'm not saying what the guy did wasn't stupid and dangerous but it strikes me as them making an example of the guy.
You've hit the nail on the head.I'm not saying what the guy did wasn't stupid and dangerous but it strikes me as them making an example of the guy.
But.. is that a bad thing?
The passionless dried-out prunes that are anti-car lobbyists have already browbeaten us enough as it is, without this adding to it.
If people are happy with the potential of joyless boxes limited to 56mph, go ahead and support this move.
R8Steve said:
vonhosen said:
Experience counts for nothing in court. The offence applies one common standard for all from learner to the most experienced.
Surely pursuit vehicles should be classed as driving dangerously if that was the case though?After all, it's only their experience that separates their driving at speed from ours?
The emergency services can't use their training as a defence to a dangerous driving charge, the case law comes from cases where they tried to.
http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/c...
yonex said:
There's no doubt he was thoughtless, the issue is how draconian our legal system is locking up people for something like this. It is obviously not a deterrent and just creates another problem, arguably a bigger one.
Absolutely agree.The guy now has a criminal record, is doing jail, will struggle to get a job at the other end of it, will have cost the country ££,£££s to process and probably will cost him ££,£££s in lost income, etc.
J4CKO said:
StottyEvo said:
A burst of acceleration on an empty arrow straight in good conditions with good visibility from an extremely experienced rider warrants 4months in prison... I can only assume there is more to this than the article lets on!
Doesn't matter how experienced he was or what the conditions were, he was doing over 2 and a half times the speed limit, he was just so far outside the limit, at that speed his experience doesnt matter, you are relying then on Doris not turning out, nobody crossing the road on foot, escaped sheep etc.What would be an acceptable speed on your acceptance compass then? You know, you're out testing your Cooper S or 350Z, the road is quiet, good visibility, dry conditions. 65mph? 70?
vonhosen said:
R8Steve said:
vonhosen said:
Experience counts for nothing in court. The offence applies one common standard for all from learner to the most experienced.
Surely pursuit vehicles should be classed as driving dangerously if that was the case though?After all, it's only their experience that separates their driving at speed from ours?
The emergency services can't use their training as a defence to a dangerous driving charge, the case law comes from cases where they tried to.
http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/c...
SuperchargedVR6 said:
Durzel said:
Alex_225 said:
That's my thinking on it as well.
I'm not saying what the guy did wasn't stupid and dangerous but it strikes me as them making an example of the guy.
You've hit the nail on the head.I'm not saying what the guy did wasn't stupid and dangerous but it strikes me as them making an example of the guy.
But.. is that a bad thing?
The passionless dried-out prunes that are anti-car lobbyists have already browbeaten us enough as it is, without this adding to it.
If people are happy with the potential of joyless boxes limited to 56mph, go ahead and support this move.
GroundEffect said:
So we should allow people to gauge their own ability with regards to ignoring the law?
That's surely the job of the court, and I would suggest a law which has something more advanced in its armoury than a custodial sentence. Lke I said, why lock him up when this is obviously not the deterrent it should be? This will get a lot of short term press coverage but then it's gone. As for the guy, there is no defence, nobody is suggesting that there is. But IMO in 2017 when we are considering what to do with someone who probably has a career, family and is actually contributing otherwise to society there could be other options. Like I said it's just making a bad situation worse for everyone.R8Steve said:
vonhosen said:
R8Steve said:
vonhosen said:
Experience counts for nothing in court. The offence applies one common standard for all from learner to the most experienced.
Surely pursuit vehicles should be classed as driving dangerously if that was the case though?After all, it's only their experience that separates their driving at speed from ours?
The emergency services can't use their training as a defence to a dangerous driving charge, the case law comes from cases where they tried to.
http://www.bailii.org/cgi-bin/format.cgi?doc=/ew/c...
Mark Milton decided to test his Police car out to see what it would do.
He was reported by his colleagues, charged by his bosses, prosecuted by the CPS & convicted by the courts.
(Another who tried to use his training as a defence as to why it wasn't dangerous).
Well. Confession time. I haven't read the thread, nor do I intend to.
All I need to know is in the headline of the linked article. "Motocross Champion".
Having seen the state that these knuckle-dragging morons leave my beloved countryside in, life imprisonment would be too soft a sentence. All too often I see the evidence of their tyre-treads illegally using local bridleways to get to even more countryside that they can ruin and put beyond the use of those seeking "quiet enjoyment" for years to come.
Lock 'em all up and sell off their assets to put right the mess they make...
All I need to know is in the headline of the linked article. "Motocross Champion".
Having seen the state that these knuckle-dragging morons leave my beloved countryside in, life imprisonment would be too soft a sentence. All too often I see the evidence of their tyre-treads illegally using local bridleways to get to even more countryside that they can ruin and put beyond the use of those seeking "quiet enjoyment" for years to come.
Lock 'em all up and sell off their assets to put right the mess they make...
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