Is jail really the smart solution for speeding?
Discussion
singlecoil said:
Heaveho said:
Yes, badly worded. Fortunately, I seem to remember someone not a million miles away doing the same thing earlier in the thread when the conversation had turned to what may or not have been in the bikers mind when he set out on his journey, so in this instance I'm prepared to forgive myself.
Do you regard yourself as less distracted using a phone hands free than hand held? In all honesty?
You and JNW1 are fixating on distraction. Have another read of this-Do you regard yourself as less distracted using a phone hands free than hand held? In all honesty?
singlecoil said:
If a link to authoritative research had been produced I would have had a look at it but it ignores the fact that there is more to it than just 'distraction'. There's the actual handling of the phone, hand held phone use involves the use of a hand, which reduces the number of hands available for operating the car.
Heaveho said:
singlecoil said:
Heaveho said:
Yes, badly worded. Fortunately, I seem to remember someone not a million miles away doing the same thing earlier in the thread when the conversation had turned to what may or not have been in the bikers mind when he set out on his journey, so in this instance I'm prepared to forgive myself.
Do you regard yourself as less distracted using a phone hands free than hand held? In all honesty?
You and JNW1 are fixating on distraction. Have another read of this-Do you regard yourself as less distracted using a phone hands free than hand held? In all honesty?
singlecoil said:
If a link to authoritative research had been produced I would have had a look at it but it ignores the fact that there is more to it than just 'distraction'. There's the actual handling of the phone, hand held phone use involves the use of a hand, which reduces the number of hands available for operating the car.
singlecoil said:
Don't you mean 'handling the phone and conversing on it is more of an issue than conversing on a hands-free system whilst driving'? That's my position, by the way, so I am happy to take questions on it.
Hmm. Not for the first time on this thread, I've just read back and deleted my initial reply. I'll attempt to be more moderate.No, that's not what I mean. Unfortunate that I appear to be required to say so, given how transparent I feel my position is. Your position is your position, I have no questions requiring an answer from you with regard to it. It's too fundamentally flawed to know where to start.
Heaveho said:
singlecoil said:
Don't you mean 'handling the phone and conversing on it is more of an issue than conversing on a hands-free system whilst driving'? That's my position, by the way, so I am happy to take questions on it.
Hmm. Not for the first time on this thread, I've just read back and deleted my initial reply. I'll attempt to be more moderate.No, that's not what I mean. Unfortunate that I appear to be required to say so, given how transparent I feel my position is. Your position is your position, I have no questions requiring an answer from you with regard to it. It's too fundamentally flawed to know where to start.
Opinion being stated as fact. Again.singlecoil said:
p1esk said:
singlecoil said:
I personally am not distracted by having a conversation while driving but maybe some people are. Whether they are talking to someone in the car or on the phone makes no real-world difference.
Oh, I thought that research had supposedly shown that a driver suffered much more distraction when having a mobile phone conversation, than occurred when conversing with a passenger.To my mind this boils down to a matter of judgement, the exercise of sound and reliable judgement, but unfortunately this is being taken out of the hands of individuals, and replaced by an increasing range of controls by government and its agencies. I think this is quite the wrong way to be going, but that's where we are.
p1esk said:
singlecoil said:
p1esk said:
singlecoil said:
I personally am not distracted by having a conversation while driving but maybe some people are. Whether they are talking to someone in the car or on the phone makes no real-world difference.
Oh, I thought that research had supposedly shown that a driver suffered much more distraction when having a mobile phone conversation, than occurred when conversing with a passenger.To my mind this boils down to a matter of judgement, the exercise of sound and reliable judgement, but unfortunately this is being taken out of the hands of individuals, and replaced by an increasing range of controls by government and its agencies. I think this is quite the wrong way to be going, but that's where we are.
It's annoying for many competent drivers to have to put up with such laws, but the rest of us competent ones count it a small sacrifice for the improvement in safety for everyone.
singlecoil said:
p1esk said:
singlecoil said:
p1esk said:
singlecoil said:
I personally am not distracted by having a conversation while driving but maybe some people are. Whether they are talking to someone in the car or on the phone makes no real-world difference.
Oh, I thought that research had supposedly shown that a driver suffered much more distraction when having a mobile phone conversation, than occurred when conversing with a passenger.To my mind this boils down to a matter of judgement, the exercise of sound and reliable judgement, but unfortunately this is being taken out of the hands of individuals, and replaced by an increasing range of controls by government and its agencies. I think this is quite the wrong way to be going, but that's where we are.
It's annoying for many competent drivers to have to put up with such laws, but the rest of us competent ones count it a small sacrifice for the improvement in safety for everyone.
For the first eight years of my driving we had no national speed limit (and no mobile phones either, for that matter!) but there was never a time when I felt uncomfortable with the level of road safety, and fearful that I was in serious danger of coming to harm on our roads. Now, of course, the level of safety on our roads is a good deal higher than when I started driving, but quite frankly I'd rather have some of the freedom restored.
That's just how I feel about it. I try to make good judgements, and I want the freedom to do that; and I'd like everybody else to have that opportunity, and I'll accept the small added risk that stems from that.
There's a saying something along the lines of 'those who trade freedom for security end up getting neither' - well not to a worthwhile degree.
Drive safely.
Crackie said:
Wow Singlecoil, I can't recall a more hypocritical comment from anyone on Pistonheads.......ever.Edited by Crackie on Sunday 19th February 19:48
I wouldn't care, he's even done it on this thread, and in much more dubious circumstances. Talk about a lack of self-awareness.
I'd also add that when an individual continually selectively quotes from a post, and ignores the main issue contained within it, he's struggling to construct a coherent argument.
Edited by Heaveho on Sunday 19th February 20:06
p1esk said:
Well I'm not going to say you're wrong, because there is no absolute right or wrong about this, but clearly we take a different view of the balance between safety and freedom. In my view the pendulum has swung too far to the 'safe' side, and too far away from the 'freedom to use our own judgement' side.
For the first eight years of my driving we had no national speed limit (and no mobile phones either, for that matter!) but there was never a time when I felt uncomfortable with the level of road safety, and fearful that I was in serious danger of coming to harm on our roads. Now, of course, the level of safety on our roads is a good deal higher than when I started driving, but quite frankly I'd rather have some of the freedom restored.
That's just how I feel about it. I try to make good judgements, and I want the freedom to do that; and I'd like everybody else to have that opportunity, and I'll accept the small added risk that stems from that.
There's a saying something along the lines of 'those who trade freedom for security end up getting neither' - well not to a worthwhile degree.
Drive safely.
Absolutely, although I expect I would shove the pendulum somewhat further than you.For the first eight years of my driving we had no national speed limit (and no mobile phones either, for that matter!) but there was never a time when I felt uncomfortable with the level of road safety, and fearful that I was in serious danger of coming to harm on our roads. Now, of course, the level of safety on our roads is a good deal higher than when I started driving, but quite frankly I'd rather have some of the freedom restored.
That's just how I feel about it. I try to make good judgements, and I want the freedom to do that; and I'd like everybody else to have that opportunity, and I'll accept the small added risk that stems from that.
There's a saying something along the lines of 'those who trade freedom for security end up getting neither' - well not to a worthwhile degree.
Drive safely.
p1esk said:
Well I'm not going to say you're wrong, because there is no absolute right or wrong about this, but clearly we take a different view of the balance between safety and freedom. In my view the pendulum has swung too far to the 'safe' side, and too far away from the 'freedom to use our own judgement' side.
For the first eight years of my driving we had no national speed limit (and no mobile phones either, for that matter!) but there was never a time when I felt uncomfortable with the level of road safety, and fearful that I was in serious danger of coming to harm on our roads. Now, of course, the level of safety on our roads is a good deal higher than when I started driving, but quite frankly I'd rather have some of the freedom restored.
That's just how I feel about it. I try to make good judgements, and I want the freedom to do that; and I'd like everybody else to have that opportunity, and I'll accept the small added risk that stems from that.
There's a saying something along the lines of 'those who trade freedom for security end up getting neither' - well not to a worthwhile degree.
Drive safely.
I'm happy to disagree with you about that. And comparing the now with then isn't hugely helpful when there are now vastly more cars on the roads and they can all go a LOT faster then in the days before the national speed limit came in. For the first eight years of my driving we had no national speed limit (and no mobile phones either, for that matter!) but there was never a time when I felt uncomfortable with the level of road safety, and fearful that I was in serious danger of coming to harm on our roads. Now, of course, the level of safety on our roads is a good deal higher than when I started driving, but quite frankly I'd rather have some of the freedom restored.
That's just how I feel about it. I try to make good judgements, and I want the freedom to do that; and I'd like everybody else to have that opportunity, and I'll accept the small added risk that stems from that.
There's a saying something along the lines of 'those who trade freedom for security end up getting neither' - well not to a worthwhile degree.
Drive safely.
Heaveho said:
Crackie said:
Wow Singlecoil, I can't recall a more hypocritical comment from anyone on Pistonheads.......ever.Edited by Crackie on Sunday 19th February 19:48
I wouldn't care, he's even done it on this thread, and in much more dubious circumstances. Talk about a lack of self-awareness.
singlecoil said:
Heaveho said:
singlecoil said:
Heaveho said:
Yes, badly worded. Fortunately, I seem to remember someone not a million miles away doing the same thing earlier in the thread when the conversation had turned to what may or not have been in the bikers mind when he set out on his journey, so in this instance I'm prepared to forgive myself.
Do you regard yourself as less distracted using a phone hands free than hand held? In all honesty?
You and JNW1 are fixating on distraction. Have another read of this-Do you regard yourself as less distracted using a phone hands free than hand held? In all honesty?
singlecoil said:
If a link to authoritative research had been produced I would have had a look at it but it ignores the fact that there is more to it than just 'distraction'. There's the actual handling of the phone, hand held phone use involves the use of a hand, which reduces the number of hands available for operating the car.
As for Heaveho and I being fixated on distraction, what else is the debate about driving whilst using a mobile device about if not that? Do you think it's just about not having both hands on the wheel all the time?!!
cmaguire said:
JNW1 said:
If you don't think hands-free should be made illegal aren't you by definition saying you're happy (content) for it to remain legal?!
That thought process is very worrying.JNW1 said:
You might be right but the research and evidence (which you obviously don't accept) suggests the vast majority of the distraction from driving comes from having the conversation and not the holding of the handset. Therefore, it is completely illogical to advocate ever stronger punishment for the use of hands-held devices whilst being prepared to accept the continued use of devices hands-free.
As for Heaveho and I being fixated on distraction, what else is the debate about driving whilst using a mobile device about if not that? Do you think it's just about not having both hands on the wheel all the time?!!
If by 'distraction' you mean everything that stops a driver performing at 100% of their ability then I accept your POV. But I think of distraction as being a purely mental thing, with encumbrance of holding the phone as a physical limitation.As for Heaveho and I being fixated on distraction, what else is the debate about driving whilst using a mobile device about if not that? Do you think it's just about not having both hands on the wheel all the time?!!
p1esk said:
singlecoil said:
I personally am not distracted by having a conversation while driving but maybe some people are. Whether they are talking to someone in the car or on the phone makes no real-world difference.
Oh, I thought that research had supposedly shown that a driver suffered much more distraction when having a mobile phone conversation, than occurred when conversing with a passenger.The point often made is that if a passenger sees that a driver is busy dealing with a situation that requires particular concentration they shut up and leave him to it, whereas a person on the other end of the phone does not know this, and carries on with the conversation. This does not tally with my experience: I've generally found that most passengers continue to chatter, even when the driver is clearly quite busy.
IMO people who say they're not distracted from driving whilst talking on a mobile remind me of those who claim they can drink alcohol without it affecting their driving - a good story except all the control experiments show it's not actually true....
JNW1 said:
Just a statement of the obvious I'd have thought? It can only be either legal or illegal so if you don't want it to become illegal I reckon that means you're content for it to remain legal - or is there another option I haven't thought of?!
I would prefer that the unit of measurement for everything was not legality.There are far too many laws already, we don't need more of them, we need less of them.
Why is it the State wants to micro-manage everybody ?
It's boring and oppressive. And I don't feel any safer because of it, just more annoyed by it.
singlecoil said:
JNW1 said:
You might be right but the research and evidence (which you obviously don't accept) suggests the vast majority of the distraction from driving comes from having the conversation and not the holding of the handset. Therefore, it is completely illogical to advocate ever stronger punishment for the use of hands-held devices whilst being prepared to accept the continued use of devices hands-free.
As for Heaveho and I being fixated on distraction, what else is the debate about driving whilst using a mobile device about if not that? Do you think it's just about not having both hands on the wheel all the time?!!
If by 'distraction' you mean everything that stops a driver performing at 100% of their ability then I accept your POV. But I think of distraction as being a purely mental thing, with encumbrance of holding the phone as a physical limitation.As for Heaveho and I being fixated on distraction, what else is the debate about driving whilst using a mobile device about if not that? Do you think it's just about not having both hands on the wheel all the time?!!
JNW1 said:
I'm not saying the physical limitation with hands-held doesn't exist - to an extent it clearly does - but I don't think it's the main problem with mobile phone usage when driving....
I'm not sure what the row of dots after your post signifies, is it a request for a reply?I was going to reply anyway, that maybe it isn't the main problem, or maybe it is (we can argue about that if you like) but holding the phone is an ADDITIONAL problem. It's adding to the burden on the driver. The conversation distraction is there anyway, and holding the phone is extra.
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