Help with Yellow Box junction fine- Merton London

[C70R]

bigandclever said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

C70R said:

I've been a driver in London for a decade, and have never been caught in a box junction, bus lane or red route. I'm not a particularly good driver, but I try hard to be observant and plan ahead.

Same here, except 37 years London driving. The other day, when some clown moved from another lane and pinched my exit spot, was the first time I've ever stopped in a box junction (unless turning right).

I've been done twice at the same box junction in a similar manner, albeit 5 years apart.

What happens is you have 2 lanes going into the box from the traffic lights but it (kind of, almost) immediately turns into a bus lane and a single lane when you get to the other side. So you get a traffic-light grand prix but the inside lane driver paps themself when they see the approaching bus lane and they lurch into the outside lane, causing all sorts of panic braking and the poor sod 3 cars back finds himself stopped in the middle of what was, 10 seconds ago, free-flowing traffic with what would be, once he got there, a clear exit. And then the lights change. That's my excuse anyway

Link should work, but the traffic is *never* as light as that ... https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@51.4780571,-0.16963...

I know the area well! The Draft House was a favourite watering hole of mine for quite some time - the back bar upstairs was the scene of a few very hefty evenings!
In truth, with traffic as slow as it normally is around there (and the sheer bloody volume of buses on that route), it becomes a case of 'one in, one out' at the YB, to the extent that I can't see how you'd get caught out?

[JonV8V]

speedking31 said:

JonV8V said:

And it amounts to the same thing - if you drive into a box junction and your exit is not clear, you have caused a vehicle (yours) to enter a box junction and stop because there is a stationary vehicle blocking your exit.

you've missed the point about speed and STOP. You can enter the box junction if your exit is blocked, you can then drive very slowly, but not stopping, if the exit is clear by the time you reach it then no offence has occurred. Thus speed is a very important part of the situation. Stopping is required to complete the offence.

I guess. Everyday is a school day, I'm just a little surprised that the highway code decided to use completely different words to the law. I knew the highway code was always going to be a less legal and more accessible way of presenting legislation, and on reflection, as you say, its not even as if the don't enter until your exit is clear is just one form of the infringement. Happy to stand corrected.

If anyone is going on a speed awareness course, when they start spouting about the highway code, turn this on them and see what they say, as I imagine they probably don't know.

[anonymous-user]

C70R said:

Well I'm not having that either. I've been a driver in London for a decade, and have never been caught in a box junction, bus lane or red route. I'm not a particularly good driver, but I try hard to be observant and plan ahead.

I'm from Enfield, now living in Cambridge area, been driving in and around London for 37 years, never been done in London but my trips into town are less frequent now due to the money making rackets that have popped up everywhere now.

[bigandclever]

C70R said:

In truth, with traffic as slow as it normally is around there (and the sheer bloody volume of buses on that route), it becomes a case of 'one in, one out' at the YB, to the extent that I can't see how you'd get caught out?

Well, you've kind of nailed it. Impatience, mainly. Everyone's in a rush to get nowhere but if you didn't go for it then no one would ever move. If the bus lane started further up and meant the merge could happen later there wouldn't be as much of a problem. Anyway I did it, got the videos and paid the resultant bills. And still moan about it years later

[C70R]

bigandclever said:

C70R said:

In truth, with traffic as slow as it normally is around there (and the sheer bloody volume of buses on that route), it becomes a case of 'one in, one out' at the YB, to the extent that I can't see how you'd get caught out?

Well, you've kind of nailed it. Impatience, mainly. Everyone's in a rush to get nowhere but if you didn't go for it then no one would ever move. If the bus lane started further up and meant the merge could happen later there wouldn't be as much of a problem. Anyway I did it, got the videos and paid the resultant bills. And still moan about it years later

Fair one for taking it on the chin. It's a crappy piece of road, even as a cyclist - the bit where the road narrows before the bridge, where the buses are pulling out of the bus stop is a real bottleneck.

[Hackney]

Raygun said:

Hackney said:

I replied to your previous post before I saw this.
You're an idiot. Sadly there are still no laws against this or fines for those caught in the act.

You're a fking idiot if you think conning people is ok.

A con? Being fined for committing an easily avoidable motoring offence is a con?
You'll be telling me next you're being fined for using your mobile phone and that's a con too because you were lured into it by a council stooge phoning you.

[surveyor_101]

Hackney said:

A con? Being fined for committing an easily avoidable motoring offence is a con?
You'll be telling me next you're being fined for using your mobile phone and that's a con too because you were lured into it by a council stooge phoning you.

£130 for entering a YBL on a stop start section of road! That is more then the fine two months ago for mobile phone.

This isn't a standard box junctions et out TSRGD! Its a merton special that when they started fining folk they didn't even have TfL approval for!

[Red Devil]

This one - https://goo.gl/maps/jDwSvrM64V52
Where there are traffic lights just beyond a YBJ you have to take extra care.
It's a similiar situation to the notorious Bagley's Lane YBJ in H&F.
That one is the highest income producer in the whole of London.
http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/cars/article-38...

[Truffs]

DaveH23 said:

Raygun said:

speedking31 said:

@akirk. Not relevant. This thread is about someone who is going to pay a high price for not paying attention.

Getting done is one thing, £20 or £25 even but £110 is taking the fking piss.
This game of catching people out in bus lanes, box junctions etc is one thing but imposing heavy fines like they are is getting beyond a joke, someone might be going to work and he's lost a days money because he got caught in a box junction, no wonder people would rather sign on the dole.

Not wanting to sound like an arse but not paying attention when driving is a pretty big deal. You are in charge of several tonnes of metal.

Not paying attention can easily result in someone losing their life. I know its a bit extreme but i'd say a fine is a pretty good result for such a lapse in concentration.

Well Dave I am afraid you do sound a bit of a bum cheek, perhaps not two but certainly one. For all we know he might have been watching out for the children. Anyway, the problem with these things are that the rules are to try to prevent congestion but the heavy handedness of the fines cause it.

Edited by Truffs on Saturday 18th February 14:52

[kowalski655]

+1
The OP was looking out for traffic etc, and saw the way was clear till some fool nipped across a lane and nicked the space!
I wonder if you would get fined if you had to do an emergency stop as a cyclist jumped a red light and went across your path?
Knowing the council,very likely...Better than a DWDCAA charge I suppose

[TwigtheWonderkid]

kowalski655 said:

The OP was looking out for traffic etc, and saw the way was clear till some fool nipped across a lane and nicked the space!

Nope that wasn't the OP's story, that was mine. But I never got fined.

[Digby]

akirk said:

wait for space in the exit, and then move...

non-issue

Which for myself, in something 36 feet long, is a massive, massive issue.

I regularly have to block a junction near Tun Wells, for example. If I do not, it's either wait for the rush hour (three hours) to finish, or get out and explain to people what I need them to do.

There's another near Orpington where cars struggle just the same.

Another near the Old Kent Road had so many complaints (bus drivers included), that after several years of making a fortune, they backed down and finally changed the design to something you had a chance of crossing.

Another in London has two laughable box junctions which it can be almost impossible to cross but worse than that, your average sized artic cannot fit between both without falling foul. That drivers exit can be clear on the first, but not the second, so they have no way to clear the first.

There was another in Croydon which had complaints which had to be altered due to lights being placed on a blind corner on the other side of the junction.

In fact numerous examples where given a while ago in a thread on these junctions.

Many are not policed due to them causing traffic issues, they just know how up against it you are to get across and will nab you not for blocking traffic, but for having an inch of tyre inside a box.

Another lucrative scam for the cash-strapped councils.

Edited by Digby on Sunday 19th February 21:50

[Hackney]

surveyor_101 said:

Hackney said:

A con? Being fined for committing an easily avoidable motoring offence is a con?
You'll be telling me next you're being fined for using your mobile phone and that's a con too because you were lured into it by a council stooge phoning you.

£130 for entering a YBL on a stop start section of road! That is more then the fine two months ago for mobile phone.

This isn't a standard box junctions et out TSRGD! Its a merton special that when they started fining folk they didn't even have TfL approval for!

You're talking about a specific junction I think, I (and Raygun I believe) are talking about box junctions in general.

£130 fine is halved if paid in two weeks.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

williredale said:

While she was stopped in the yellow box a police car came round and gave her three points and a fine for being in the box.

I wasn't aware it was an endorsable offence so what was the endorsement code on her licence?

Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Wednesday 15th February 10:48

Are we going to get an answer to this?

[FiF]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

williredale said:

While she was stopped in the yellow box a police car came round and gave her three points and a fine for being in the box.

I wasn't aware it was an endorsable offence so what was the endorsement code on her licence?

Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Wednesday 15th February 10:48

Are we going to get an answer to this?

It is technically a section 36 offence, and would fall under failing to comply with a traffic sign. If you look at the appropriate bits of Road Traffic Act 1988 then yellow box markings are one of the 'signs' listed where section 36 applies. If you then check the possible penalties for such fixed penalty offences then 3 points are possible.

The other thing to consider is that a fixed penalty notice issued by a police officer can result in points on the licence, those issued by a council cannot do so.

That doesn't answer your question about what endorsement code the poster's wife received in her licence but hope it clarifies the other issue.

[TwigtheWonderkid]

FiF said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

williredale said:

While she was stopped in the yellow box a police car came round and gave her three points and a fine for being in the box.

I wasn't aware it was an endorsable offence so what was the endorsement code on her licence?

Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Wednesday 15th February 10:48

Are we going to get an answer to this?

It is technically a section 36 offence, and would fall under failing to comply with a traffic sign. If you look at the appropriate bits of Road Traffic Act 1988 then yellow box markings are one of the 'signs' listed where section 36 applies. If you then check the possible penalties for such fixed penalty offences then 3 points are possible.

The other thing to consider is that a fixed penalty notice issued by a police officer can result in points on the licence, those issued by a council cannot do so.

That doesn't answer your question about what endorsement code the poster's wife received in her licence but hope it clarifies the other issue.

OK, so the code would be a TS50 - Failing to comply with traffic sign (excluding stop signs, traffic lights or double white lines).

[williredale]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

FiF said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

williredale said:

While she was stopped in the yellow box a police car came round and gave her three points and a fine for being in the box.

I wasn't aware it was an endorsable offence so what was the endorsement code on her licence?

Edited by TwigtheWonderkid on Wednesday 15th February 10:48

Are we going to get an answer to this?

It is technically a section 36 offence, and would fall under failing to comply with a traffic sign. If you look at the appropriate bits of Road Traffic Act 1988 then yellow box markings are one of the 'signs' listed where section 36 applies. If you then check the possible penalties for such fixed penalty offences then 3 points are possible.

The other thing to consider is that a fixed penalty notice issued by a police officer can result in points on the licence, those issued by a council cannot do so.

That doesn't answer your question about what endorsement code the poster's wife received in her licence but hope it clarifies the other issue.

OK, so the code would be a TS50 - Failing to comply with traffic sign (excluding stop signs, traffic lights or double white lines).

Sorry completely forgotten about this! I was in the car when she was stopped but wasn't in the police car when she had her bking so can't tell you exactly which code it was. It's also gone from her current licence so can't check that either.

[SS2.]

Not all offences contrary to s36 RTA 1988 are endorsable - the TSRGD 2016 schedules list which ones are and which ones aren't.

YBJ contraventions aren't.

[FiF]

That's interesting as I cross checked with sentencing council information. So something doesn't tie up somewhere.

[SS2.]

Take a STOP sign as an example (Diagram 601.1).

From the relevant schedule in TSRGD 2016, Column 5 shows which provisions apply to the STOP sign.



Referring to Part 8 of that schedule -

Provision 1 confirms that s.36 Road Traffic Act 1988 applies;

Provision 2 confirms that Column 5 of Schedule 2 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988 also applies;



Column 5 of Schedule 2 of the RTOA 1988 specifies that contravention of the STOP sign is endorsable - see below.



Whilst the entry for a box junction (Diagram 1043) confirms that s.36 RTA 1988 does indeed apply (Provision #1), there is no mention of Provision #2 which confirms the sign is not specified as one which carries points / disqualification / endorsement.