Help with Yellow Box junction fine- Merton London
Discussion
Can someone explain, please.
It is often said, and the Highway Code states... You MUST NOT enter the [yellow] box [junction] until your exit road or lane is clear (except if turning right, etc, etc). It is therefore generally accepted that an offence is committed if the exit was not clear when you entered the yellow box junction.
But that doesn't seem to be borne out by the legislation regarding yellow box junctions which seems to say that an offence is committed only if you stop in the yellow box junction. Therefore if traffic is flowing across the yellow box junction as you approach and you are able to exit without stopping, notwithstanding that the exit was not "clear" when you entered, you have not committed an office. The relevant legislation seems to be thus:
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
Road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3, 1025.4, 1043 and 1044: bus stop and bus stand clearways and box junctions
29.
(2) The road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall convey the prohibition specified in Part II of Schedule 19.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#29
SCHEDULE 19
Regulation 29
BUS STOP AND BUS STAND CLEARWAYS AND BOX JUNCTIONS
PART II
SIGNIFICANCE OF BOX JUNCTION MARKINGS
Interpretation of Part II of Schedule
6. In this Part of this Schedule -
(a) "box junction" means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044; and
(b) a reference (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst part of it is within the box junction.
Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044
7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
Prohibition conveyed when markings are placed in conjunction with signs in diagrams 615 and 811
8. When the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044 is placed in conjunction with the signs shown in diagrams 615 and 811 on an area of carriageway which is less than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point, the road marking shall convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.
The relevant phrase seems to be... no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. There's no mention that you MUST NOT enter until your exit or lane is clear.
Am I, are we, is the Highway Code missing the point here?
It is often said, and the Highway Code states... You MUST NOT enter the [yellow] box [junction] until your exit road or lane is clear (except if turning right, etc, etc). It is therefore generally accepted that an offence is committed if the exit was not clear when you entered the yellow box junction.
But that doesn't seem to be borne out by the legislation regarding yellow box junctions which seems to say that an offence is committed only if you stop in the yellow box junction. Therefore if traffic is flowing across the yellow box junction as you approach and you are able to exit without stopping, notwithstanding that the exit was not "clear" when you entered, you have not committed an office. The relevant legislation seems to be thus:
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
Road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3, 1025.4, 1043 and 1044: bus stop and bus stand clearways and box junctions
29.
(2) The road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall convey the prohibition specified in Part II of Schedule 19.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#29
SCHEDULE 19
Regulation 29
BUS STOP AND BUS STAND CLEARWAYS AND BOX JUNCTIONS
PART II
SIGNIFICANCE OF BOX JUNCTION MARKINGS
Interpretation of Part II of Schedule
6. In this Part of this Schedule -
(a) "box junction" means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044; and
(b) a reference (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst part of it is within the box junction.
Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044
7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
Prohibition conveyed when markings are placed in conjunction with signs in diagrams 615 and 811
8. When the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044 is placed in conjunction with the signs shown in diagrams 615 and 811 on an area of carriageway which is less than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point, the road marking shall convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.
The relevant phrase seems to be... no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. There's no mention that you MUST NOT enter until your exit or lane is clear.
Am I, are we, is the Highway Code missing the point here?
johnao said:
Can someone explain, please.
It is often said, and the Highway Code states... You MUST NOT enter the [yellow] box [junction] until your exit road or lane is clear (except if turning right, etc, etc). It is therefore generally accepted that an offence is committed if the exit was not clear when you entered the yellow box junction.
But that doesn't seem to be borne out by the legislation regarding yellow box junctions which seems to say that an offence is committed only if you stop in the yellow box junction. Therefore if traffic is flowing across the yellow box junction as you approach and you are able to exit without stopping, notwithstanding that the exit was not "clear" when you entered, you have not committed an office. The relevant legislation seems to be thus:
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
Road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3, 1025.4, 1043 and 1044: bus stop and bus stand clearways and box junctions
29.
(2) The road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall convey the prohibition specified in Part II of Schedule 19.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#29
SCHEDULE 19
Regulation 29
BUS STOP AND BUS STAND CLEARWAYS AND BOX JUNCTIONS
PART II
SIGNIFICANCE OF BOX JUNCTION MARKINGS
Interpretation of Part II of Schedule
6. In this Part of this Schedule -
(a) "box junction" means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044; and
(b) a reference (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst part of it is within the box junction.
Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044
7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
Prohibition conveyed when markings are placed in conjunction with signs in diagrams 615 and 811
8. When the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044 is placed in conjunction with the signs shown in diagrams 615 and 811 on an area of carriageway which is less than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point, the road marking shall convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.
The relevant phrase seems to be... no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. There's no mention that you MUST NOT enter until your exit or lane is clear.
Am I, are we, is the Highway Code missing the point here?
The highlighted "no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction..." would mean that the only way one can be certain as to not stop is for the exit to be clear at the time, and that there are no other cars in the box between you and it.It is often said, and the Highway Code states... You MUST NOT enter the [yellow] box [junction] until your exit road or lane is clear (except if turning right, etc, etc). It is therefore generally accepted that an offence is committed if the exit was not clear when you entered the yellow box junction.
But that doesn't seem to be borne out by the legislation regarding yellow box junctions which seems to say that an offence is committed only if you stop in the yellow box junction. Therefore if traffic is flowing across the yellow box junction as you approach and you are able to exit without stopping, notwithstanding that the exit was not "clear" when you entered, you have not committed an office. The relevant legislation seems to be thus:
The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002
Road markings shown in diagrams 1025.1, 1025.3, 1025.4, 1043 and 1044: bus stop and bus stand clearways and box junctions
29.
(2) The road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall convey the prohibition specified in Part II of Schedule 19.
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#29
SCHEDULE 19
Regulation 29
BUS STOP AND BUS STAND CLEARWAYS AND BOX JUNCTIONS
PART II
SIGNIFICANCE OF BOX JUNCTION MARKINGS
Interpretation of Part II of Schedule
6. In this Part of this Schedule -
(a) "box junction" means the area of carriageway marked with yellow cross-hatching at a junction between two or more roads on which there has been placed the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044; and
(b) a reference (however expressed) to a vehicle which is stationary or stops within a box junction includes a vehicle which is stationary whilst part of it is within the box junction.
Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044
7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
Prohibition conveyed when markings are placed in conjunction with signs in diagrams 615 and 811
8. When the road marking shown in diagram 1043 or 1044 is placed in conjunction with the signs shown in diagrams 615 and 811 on an area of carriageway which is less than 4.5 metres wide at its narrowest point, the road marking shall convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles beyond the box junction.
The relevant phrase seems to be... no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles. There's no mention that you MUST NOT enter until your exit or lane is clear.
Am I, are we, is the Highway Code missing the point here?
Entering a yellow box junction whilst in moving traffic and therefore expecting to clear that junction should be a non-event were you to be 'trapped' at the exit. Whereas wilfully entering the box knowing that you will be stopped within the box and may therefore obstruct traffic flow should be a contravention.
But the authorities don't care about intent unless they have to or it suits them. Pay up, or else.
Another stealth tax.
Although either way, the fines are ridiculously high and disproportionate to the 'offence'.
But the authorities don't care about intent unless they have to or it suits them. Pay up, or else.
Another stealth tax.
Although either way, the fines are ridiculously high and disproportionate to the 'offence'.
tr7v8 said:
Simply if you obey the box junction nothing would ever move
Quite seriously, perhaps that is the solution.Get a group of motorists to properly obey the box junction (i.e. not even attempting to cross until the exit is free) and bring the area to a halt. Then do it again the next day. And the next.
How long do you think the resulting chaos would be allowed to continue before changes would be made.
Raygun said:
surveyor_101 said:
£130 seems excessive, if it was £50 but that's more than a penalty for speeding,
These little motoring misdemeanors should be £20 max.Has there been a load of people killed in this box junction in the past?
PF62 said:
tr7v8 said:
Simply if you obey the box junction nothing would ever move
Quite seriously, perhaps that is the solution.Get a group of motorists to properly obey the box junction (i.e. not even attempting to cross until the exit is free) and bring the area to a halt. Then do it again the next day. And the next.
How long do you think the resulting chaos would be allowed to continue before changes would be made.
So all entering motorists stop...
exiting motorists move on because their direction is forwards
now there is space for motorists to enter the box knowing their exit is clear...
it is how these junctions work - and they do work, I frequently drive in London and have had no issues with many yellow box junctions...
the only current issues are:
- entering to turn right when your exit is clear but you have to wait for passing traffic in the other direction (legal) if traffic from the other direction then turns into your exit leaving it blocked you can get caught out - technically you are not in breach of the HC but I guess you could end up with a ticket...
- waiting for your exit to clear, you move into the box and someone from another lane (whose exit is not clear) out-accelerates you and cuts you up taking your exit space - again, not in breach of the HC and to avoid simply keep an eye on adjoining traffic
- occasionally you see the exit space being created as you wait at red lights - only to see it being filled by cars from the crossing traffic, leaving you no space while your lights are green - frustrating, but in my experience you will eventually get a space, it taking time doesn't justify blocking the junction...
other than those issues, I don't see how there is ever an issue with yellow boxes - wait for space in the exit, and then move...
non-issue
akirk said:
if someone is going straight across a yellow box (not turning across moving traffic to go right, how can they enter with the exit clear and not be able to exit?
the only way that can happen is if someone from another lane moves ahead of them into their lane...
asked and answered. It has happened to me, fortunately not caught on camera but if it had been I believe the other car changing lanes would have been enough to exonerate me. I entered the box junction with a clear exit, the fact that that exit became blocked while I was in progress across the junction is key.the only way that can happen is if someone from another lane moves ahead of them into their lane...
akirk said:
And how does that work?
So all entering motorists stop...
exiting motorists move on because their direction is forwards
now there is space for motorists to enter the box knowing their exit is clear...
it is how these junctions work - and they do work, I frequently drive in London and have had no issues with many yellow box junctions...
the only current issues are:
- entering to turn right when your exit is clear but you have to wait for passing traffic in the other direction (legal) if traffic from the other direction then turns into your exit leaving it blocked you can get caught out - technically you are not in breach of the HC but I guess you could end up with a ticket...
- waiting for your exit to clear, you move into the box and someone from another lane (whose exit is not clear) out-accelerates you and cuts you up taking your exit space - again, not in breach of the HC and to avoid simply keep an eye on adjoining traffic
- occasionally you see the exit space being created as you wait at red lights - only to see it being filled by cars from the crossing traffic, leaving you no space while your lights are green - frustrating, but in my experience you will eventually get a space, it taking time doesn't justify blocking the junction...
other than those issues, I don't see how there is ever an issue with yellow boxes - wait for space in the exit, and then move...
non-issue
About right. Getting caught out the other day when someone from another lane nicked my exit space was the first time I've had an issue. The main problem with box junctions is people not having a clue what they are for. Lights go green, and you can't move because idiots who are crossing your path are still blocking the junction from when their light was green. So all entering motorists stop...
exiting motorists move on because their direction is forwards
now there is space for motorists to enter the box knowing their exit is clear...
it is how these junctions work - and they do work, I frequently drive in London and have had no issues with many yellow box junctions...
the only current issues are:
- entering to turn right when your exit is clear but you have to wait for passing traffic in the other direction (legal) if traffic from the other direction then turns into your exit leaving it blocked you can get caught out - technically you are not in breach of the HC but I guess you could end up with a ticket...
- waiting for your exit to clear, you move into the box and someone from another lane (whose exit is not clear) out-accelerates you and cuts you up taking your exit space - again, not in breach of the HC and to avoid simply keep an eye on adjoining traffic
- occasionally you see the exit space being created as you wait at red lights - only to see it being filled by cars from the crossing traffic, leaving you no space while your lights are green - frustrating, but in my experience you will eventually get a space, it taking time doesn't justify blocking the junction...
other than those issues, I don't see how there is ever an issue with yellow boxes - wait for space in the exit, and then move...
non-issue
DaveH23 said:
Not wanting to sound like an arse .
You failed.Box junction cameras are a complete scam, especially in London. They only fit cameras where they know traffic bunches up and stopping is sometimes unavoidable.
If you find yourself in one, just make sure you don't stop. Drive as slow as possible, just don't actually stop and you'll be fine.
Raygun said:
speedking31 said:
@akirk. Not relevant. This thread is about someone who is going to pay a high price for not paying attention.
Getting done is one thing, £20 or £25 even but £110 is taking the f
king piss.This game of catching people out in bus lanes, box junctions etc is one thing but imposing heavy fines like they are is getting beyond a joke, someone might be going to work and he's lost a days money because he got caught in a box junction, no wonder people would rather sign on the dole.
If the fine was small it'd be like a bus lane tax: yeah, "I'll pay a fiver to jump the queue", which is ridiculous. It has to be enough of a jolt to make people think again before doing it.
Dr Doofenshmirtz said:
DaveH23 said:
Not wanting to sound like an arse .
You failed.Box junction cameras are a complete scam, especially in London. They only fit cameras where they know traffic bunches up and stopping is sometimes unavoidable.
If you find yourself in one, just make sure you don't stop. Drive as slow as possible, just don't actually stop and you'll be fine.
It can be difficult in some junctions (the junction at Southampton Place onto the A40 springs to mind) but someone blocking a box junction, particularly in London, can cause all sorts of delays. They only fit cameras where they know it's a problem.
Given the proliferation of speed cameras I'd applaud moves to put a camera on every box junction and on every traffic light.
akirk said:
PF62 said:
tr7v8 said:
Simply if you obey the box junction nothing would ever move
Quite seriously, perhaps that is the solution.Get a group of motorists to properly obey the box junction (i.e. not even attempting to cross until the exit is free) and bring the area to a halt. Then do it again the next day. And the next.
How long do you think the resulting chaos would be allowed to continue before changes would be made.
So all entering motorists stop...
exiting motorists move on because their direction is forwards
now there is space for motorists to enter the box knowing their exit is clear...
it is how these junctions work - and they do work, I frequently drive in London and have had no issues with many yellow box junctions...
the only current issues are:
- entering to turn right when your exit is clear but you have to wait for passing traffic in the other direction (legal) if traffic from the other direction then turns into your exit leaving it blocked you can get caught out - technically you are not in breach of the HC but I guess you could end up with a ticket...
- waiting for your exit to clear, you move into the box and someone from another lane (whose exit is not clear) out-accelerates you and cuts you up taking your exit space - again, not in breach of the HC and to avoid simply keep an eye on adjoining traffic
- occasionally you see the exit space being created as you wait at red lights - only to see it being filled by cars from the crossing traffic, leaving you no space while your lights are green - frustrating, but in my experience you will eventually get a space, it taking time doesn't justify blocking the junction...
other than those issues, I don't see how there is ever an issue with yellow boxes - wait for space in the exit, and then move...
non-issue
t ways that encourage trapping people in boxes. There was a whole 15 minute or so segment on one of the BBCs shows a few months back about examples like this, the problem was often other sets of traffic lights close to yellow boxes, which means a queue would form behind the lights, the and light signals are timed against the people who are wanting to go straight onward, but are clear for when people are turning into the same section, or the other way around.£100+ fine is ridiculous however you look at it though.
Dr Doofenshmirtz said:
If you find yourself in one, just make sure you don't stop. Drive as slow as possible, just don't actually stop and you'll be fine.
Or bump into the car which stole your exit route, causing less than £130 of damage. I believe you MUST stop after being involved in an accident 
Hackney said:
If the fine was small it'd be like a bus lane tax: yeah, "I'll pay a fiver to jump the queue", which is ridiculous. It has to be enough of a jolt to make people think again before doing it.
People are not doing it on purpose, the way traffic is in London they can get caught out especially if they are not local to the area, this is why the council has set up this scam, easy money. These people responsible for charging £130 for entering a box junction by mistake should be doing time for fraud.Raygun said:
People are not doing it on purpose, the way traffic is in London they can get caught out especially if they are not local to the area, this is why the council has set up this scam, easy money. These people responsible for charging £130 for entering a box junction by mistake should be doing time for fraud.
Many are doing it on purpose, in so much as they have not the foggiest clue what all those funny yellow lines actually mean. Hopefully a fine prompts them to look it up. TwigtheWonderkid said:
Many are doing it on purpose, in so much as they have not the foggiest clue what all those funny yellow lines actually mean. Hopefully a fine prompts them to look it up.
Of course they're doing it on purpose, lets give the local council £130 today for being such a great council, perhaps they can also send a letter to their local council as well asking them to increase their council tax bill, give em 80 quid to take the brown bin away rather than 40 quid.The OP says that the fine is £65 if paid in 14 days.
As a motoring offence it may not be the worse crime of the century, but box junctions are intended to keep traffic flowing as best it can (certainly much better than just letting the junction get grid-locked) and I know there are plenty of people who object to any fine, or see it as a cash-cow. Anybody driving in a busy city will know what box-junction markings are for, and should know how to use them. If they choose to ignore it, or just aren't paying attention, then a £65 slap on the wrist may just help keep them focussed and keep the traffic moving.
It may be a better strategy to issue a warning for the first-time, like they did recently in Newcastle when they changed all the bus lanes and only issue the fine to those who ignore rather than those who just may a mistake.
As a motoring offence it may not be the worse crime of the century, but box junctions are intended to keep traffic flowing as best it can (certainly much better than just letting the junction get grid-locked) and I know there are plenty of people who object to any fine, or see it as a cash-cow. Anybody driving in a busy city will know what box-junction markings are for, and should know how to use them. If they choose to ignore it, or just aren't paying attention, then a £65 slap on the wrist may just help keep them focussed and keep the traffic moving.
It may be a better strategy to issue a warning for the first-time, like they did recently in Newcastle when they changed all the bus lanes and only issue the fine to those who ignore rather than those who just may a mistake.
Raygun said:
TwigtheWonderkid said:
Many are doing it on purpose, in so much as they have not the foggiest clue what all those funny yellow lines actually mean. Hopefully a fine prompts them to look it up.
Of course they're doing it on purpose, lets give the local council £130 today for being such a great council, perhaps they can also send a letter to their local council as well asking them to increase their council tax bill, give em 80 quid to take the brown bin away rather than 40 quid.Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff