Trailer towing whilst 'supervised'

[brrapp]

My daughter is just 20 so has a 'b' licence. She works on a local estate and towing large trailers comes into her job regularly so she plans to sit her 'b+e' test later this year when she gets some spare time. She can and does regularly drive a tractor trailer combo of 20 Tonnes plus and this is quite legal , but also needs to tow a large stock trailer behind her Isuzu D-max pickup for the 50 mile round trip to the local livestock mart.
She does this at the moment by sticking on l-plates and taking a 'supervising' driver with her who has 'b+e' authorisation on their licence. Some times she takes her boss, who can drive the combo but usually has a drink or two with cronies at the market, sometimes she takes the old retired gamekeeper who still lives on the estate, she has even been known to take her 80 year old Granny who has a 'b+e' licence but has never actually driven a trailer in over 50 years of holding the licence.
I'm just wondering whether this approach is strictly legal or whether there are restrictions on actually 'working' while 'learning' under supervision.

[TooLateForAName]

brrapp said:

Some times she takes her boss, who can drive the combo but usually has a drink or two with cronies at the market

I'd not do this. If she is relying on him to be supervising then they are both going to be in bother if stopped.

[HughG]

brrapp said:

she has even been known to take her 80 year old Granny who has a 'b+e' licence but has never actually driven a trailer in over 50 years of holding the licence.

I don't think anyone with "grandfather rights" can be the supervisor anymore either they have to have passed the B+E test themselves or be a registered instructor.

[brrapp]

HughG said:

I don't think anyone with "grandfather rights" can be the supervisor anymore either they have to have passed the B+E test themselves or be a registered instructor.

Thanks for this, it's the sort of advice I was looking for . I couldn't find anything in DVLA advice or legislation about this, only for larger vehicles like c1 +e, everything I looked at seemed to say as long as they have b1+e entitlement then the can 'supervise' . Can you tell me where you got this from?

[HughG]

brrapp said:

HughG said:

I don't think anyone with "grandfather rights" can be the supervisor anymore either they have to have passed the B+E test themselves or be a registered instructor.

Thanks for this, it's the sort of advice I was looking for . I couldn't find anything in DVLA advice or legislation about this, only for larger vehicles like c1 +e, everything I looked at seemed to say as long as they have b1+e entitlement then the can 'supervise' . Can you tell me where you got this from?

It's what I was told by my B+E instructor when I did mine a couple of weeks ago.
If she want's any pointers on the bits they're specifically looking for on the test I can do some notes if you/she wants.

[Shaw Tarse]

Anything here? http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

[brrapp]

Shaw Tarse said:

Anything here? http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...

Yes, I looked at that topic but couldn't find anything negative about 'working' while being 'supervised'.
The bottom paragraph of the original post in that topic also seems to contradict HughG's post that you need to have a 'professional' supervisor.
I've no doubts whatsoever about her abilities, she's been towing trailers off-road since about aged 10, and legally since aged 16 she's been driving large tractor-trailer combos on road. She could probably reverse an unlubricated arctic up a gnat's chuff blindfolded without touching the sides.

[Prohibiting]

I would just do the test. Cost me £450 all in including lessons. It is a joke though and it's just a money spinner.

[akirk]

I would have thought it to be in the interest of the Estate to find the time (and money) for her to do the test as they will be benefiting...
As mentioned above - if someone is supervising they can be done for drunk in charge if they have had a drink, so the current approach with her boss is likely to be slightly dodgy... equally, it is not really ideal to be using retired gamekeepers / grannies for this however nicely it works out...

I think the issue here is that there is no incentive for the Estate to make time / find the cash while there is a work-around...
if granny / game-keeper were not available / the boss realised he can't drink unless she holds a licence - they might get it sorted!
encourage them to sort it out sooner rather than later...

[brrapp]

akirk said:

I would have thought it to be in the interest of the Estate to find the time (and money) for her to do the test as they will be benefiting...
As mentioned above - if someone is supervising they can be done for drunk in charge if they have had a drink, so the current approach with her boss is likely to be slightly dodgy... equally, it is not really ideal to be using retired gamekeepers / grannies for this however nicely it works out...

I think the issue here is that there is no incentive for the Estate to make time / find the cash while there is a work-around...
if granny / game-keeper were not available / the boss realised he can't drink unless she holds a licence - they might get it sorted!
encourage them to sort it out sooner rather than later...

Thanks, there is no problem with her doing the test. The estate has already offered to pay for the test and training and pay her to do the training in their time. It's just she's a little busy right now (lambs and calves popping out at all times of the day and night) so she's running 'supervised' as a temporary work around till the summer and a few more daylight hours. Just trying to make sure it's legitimate in the short term. I don't think her boss is getting drunk on their visits to market, just using them as an excuse to socialise a bit whilst leaving the 'work' to the hired help, but I'll check with her on that.

[HughG]

HughG said:

brrapp said:

HughG said:

I don't think anyone with "grandfather rights" can be the supervisor anymore either they have to have passed the B+E test themselves or be a registered instructor.

Thanks for this, it's the sort of advice I was looking for . I couldn't find anything in DVLA advice or legislation about this, only for larger vehicles like c1 +e, everything I looked at seemed to say as long as they have b1+e entitlement then the can 'supervise' . Can you tell me where you got this from?

It's what I was told by my B+E instructor when I did mine a couple of weeks ago.
If she want's any pointers on the bits they're specifically looking for on the test I can do some notes if you/she wants.

I don't want to mislead anyone so have just spoken to DVLA and they said anyone with B+E on their license regardless of whether they did the test or got it via grandfather rights can supervise, as long as they have had the B+E there for 3 years continuously and are 21years old or older.

[JayBM]

As well as trailer towing requirements the other area she needs to make sure she complies with are the livestock transportation regulations. There is a 65km limit before there are authorisation and certificate requirements. Although not 100% clear, the 65km limit should also take in to account the return journey in case any of the animals remain unsold and have to be taken back.

[brrapp]

JayBM said:

As well as trailer towing requirements the other area she needs to make sure she complies with are the livestock transportation regulations. There is a 65km limit before there are authorisation and certificate requirements. Although not 100% clear, the 65km limit should also take in to account the return journey in case any of the animals remain unsold and have to be taken back.

Thanks, yes, she knows about that and is fully compliant with these regs.

[akirk]

brrapp said:

akirk said:

I would have thought it to be in the interest of the Estate to find the time (and money) for her to do the test as they will be benefiting...
As mentioned above - if someone is supervising they can be done for drunk in charge if they have had a drink, so the current approach with her boss is likely to be slightly dodgy... equally, it is not really ideal to be using retired gamekeepers / grannies for this however nicely it works out...

I think the issue here is that there is no incentive for the Estate to make time / find the cash while there is a work-around...
if granny / game-keeper were not available / the boss realised he can't drink unless she holds a licence - they might get it sorted!
encourage them to sort it out sooner rather than later...

Thanks, there is no problem with her doing the test. The estate has already offered to pay for the test and training and pay her to do the training in their time. It's just she's a little busy right now (lambs and calves popping out at all times of the day and night) so she's running 'supervised' as a temporary work around till the summer and a few more daylight hours. Just trying to make sure it's legitimate in the short term. I don't think her boss is getting drunk on their visits to market, just using them as an excuse to socialise a bit whilst leaving the 'work' to the hired help, but I'll check with her on that.

Good wasn't quite sure and know some estates which put off spending money, so good to have one prepared to invest in their staff...
As above, I think she is legal - however I would still try and fit it in sooner rather than later - appreciate that there are lots of births going on, but worth at least booking it in before harvest is another excuse etc...

[TwigtheWonderkid]

HughG said:

HughG said:

brrapp said:

HughG said:

I don't think anyone with "grandfather rights" can be the supervisor anymore either they have to have passed the B+E test themselves or be a registered instructor.

Thanks for this, it's the sort of advice I was looking for . I couldn't find anything in DVLA advice or legislation about this, only for larger vehicles like c1 +e, everything I looked at seemed to say as long as they have b1+e entitlement then the can 'supervise' . Can you tell me where you got this from?

It's what I was told by my B+E instructor when I did mine a couple of weeks ago.
If she want's any pointers on the bits they're specifically looking for on the test I can do some notes if you/she wants.

I don't want to mislead anyone so have just spoken to DVLA and they said anyone with B+E on their license regardless of whether they did the test or got it via grandfather rights can supervise, as long as they have had the B+E there for 3 years continuously and are 21years old or older.

Indeed. Licence grandfather rights are in no way inferior to anyone who has subsequently specifically "earned" their rights.