Motorist with 62 penalty points legally allowed to drive
Discussion
mybrainhurts said:
As in my previous post, I've seen a few cameras flash in the early hours where the variable limit was ambiguous. I held the low limit in lane 4, all others technically closed, but not obviously so. If I had held 40 in lane 4 for long (as required), I would have been a serious hazard in the confusion, so I had no choice but to break the temporary limit.
This has happened to me four times on the M1 between Sheffield and Leeds in the past 6 months.
So, NOT sorted.
Can you describe the ambiguity on speed limits and how a lane can be technically closed please. This has happened to me four times on the M1 between Sheffield and Leeds in the past 6 months.
So, NOT sorted.
Gavia said:
mybrainhurts said:
As in my previous post, I've seen a few cameras flash in the early hours where the variable limit was ambiguous. I held the low limit in lane 4, all others technically closed, but not obviously so. If I had held 40 in lane 4 for long (as required), I would have been a serious hazard in the confusion, so I had no choice but to break the temporary limit.
This has happened to me four times on the M1 between Sheffield and Leeds in the past 6 months.
So, NOT sorted.
Can you describe the ambiguity on speed limits and how a lane can be technically closed please. This has happened to me four times on the M1 between Sheffield and Leeds in the past 6 months.
So, NOT sorted.
4 lanes. No hard shoulder. Preparing for overnight roadworks, but all the kit is parked up in the refuges and no cones out yet.
Highways England preparing for roadworks with the variable limit signs.
(1) Limit showing 60
(2) Limit showing 50, white arrows moving traffic over from lanes 1,2,3 to lane 4
(3) limit showing 40, red crosses over lanes 1,2,3
All this over a lengthy distance.
All traffic now in lane 4 at 40.
Gantry then appears with no signs illuminated. Then another. Then a long distance to the next gantry.
Confused drivers in lane 4 see no obstruction ahead, no speed limit/red crosses overhead.
Some move over to lanes 3,2,1 and start to undertake, including a lot of lorries.
But we've had no all clear sign overhead, so I'm still supposed to be in lane 4 at 40, but nobody else is, so I have to join the flow and get over to lane 1 before somebody hits me from behind.
A long way further on...gantry with all clear sign lit up over all 4 lanes.
So everybody has been in closed lanes for well over a mile and due £100 and 3 points.
Some unfortunates moved left before the gantries went blank and cameras flashed.
mybrainhurts said:
Certainly.
4 lanes. No hard shoulder. Preparing for overnight roadworks, but all the kit is parked up in the refuges and no cones out yet.
Highways England preparing for roadworks with the variable limit signs.
(1) Limit showing 60
(2) Limit showing 50, white arrows moving traffic over from lanes 1,2,3 to lane 4
(3) limit showing 40, red crosses over lanes 1,2,3
All this over a lengthy distance.
All traffic now in lane 4 at 40.
Gantry then appears with no signs illuminated. Then another. Then a long distance to the next gantry.
Confused drivers in lane 4 see no obstruction ahead, no speed limit/red crosses overhead.
Some move over to lanes 3,2,1 and start to undertake, including a lot of lorries.
But we've had no all clear sign overhead, so I'm still supposed to be in lane 4 at 40, but nobody else is, so I have to join the flow and get over to lane 1 before somebody hits me from behind.
A long way further on...gantry with all clear sign lit up over all 4 lanes.
So everybody has been in closed lanes for well over a mile and due £100 and 3 points.
Some unfortunates moved left before the gantries went blank and cameras flashed.
I'm not sure what's confusing about that. The speed gradually reduces as each lane is closed. A Red Cross is unambiguous and remains in force until advised otherwise. Just because there's no traffic doesn't mean it's OK to ignore it. 4 lanes. No hard shoulder. Preparing for overnight roadworks, but all the kit is parked up in the refuges and no cones out yet.
Highways England preparing for roadworks with the variable limit signs.
(1) Limit showing 60
(2) Limit showing 50, white arrows moving traffic over from lanes 1,2,3 to lane 4
(3) limit showing 40, red crosses over lanes 1,2,3
All this over a lengthy distance.
All traffic now in lane 4 at 40.
Gantry then appears with no signs illuminated. Then another. Then a long distance to the next gantry.
Confused drivers in lane 4 see no obstruction ahead, no speed limit/red crosses overhead.
Some move over to lanes 3,2,1 and start to undertake, including a lot of lorries.
But we've had no all clear sign overhead, so I'm still supposed to be in lane 4 at 40, but nobody else is, so I have to join the flow and get over to lane 1 before somebody hits me from behind.
A long way further on...gantry with all clear sign lit up over all 4 lanes.
So everybody has been in closed lanes for well over a mile and due £100 and 3 points.
Some unfortunates moved left before the gantries went blank and cameras flashed.
If you're waiting at a set of red traffic lights do you go through simply because there's no visible obstruction?
Gavia said:
I'm not sure what's confusing about that. The speed gradually reduces as each lane is closed. A Red Cross is unambiguous and remains in force until advised otherwise. Just because there's no traffic doesn't mean it's OK to ignore it.
If you're waiting at a set of red traffic lights do you go through simply because there's no visible obstruction?
Comparing that to a red traffic light is a bit daft. Traffic lights serve a legitimate purpose that can be appreciated by all and assuming they are functioning correctly then we can all accept that they are on a 'timer' that means we may be waiting on them at quiet times when there is no traffic crossing on the opposing green. If you're waiting at a set of red traffic lights do you go through simply because there's no visible obstruction?
Speed enforcement is regularly a total nonsense with little justification and prior to its existence we managed perfectly well without it. Managed Motorways are an extension of this poor joke where we are expected to follow 'the rules' without question when they are frequently seen to be a totally unnecessary exercise in nothing other than the State telling us what to do and punishing us if we don't do as they say.
Gavia said:
I'm not sure what's confusing about that. The speed gradually reduces as each lane is closed. A Red Cross is unambiguous and remains in force until advised otherwise. Just because there's no traffic doesn't mean it's OK to ignore it.
If you're waiting at a set of red traffic lights do you go through simply because there's no visible obstruction?
Yes, thanks for reminding me of the bleedin' obvious.If you're waiting at a set of red traffic lights do you go through simply because there's no visible obstruction?
That's not the point. The point is that a large number of drivers were confused, did the wrong thing and made it impossible for drivers, who did understand what was happening, to drive as required.
mybrainhurts said:
Yes, thanks for reminding me of the bleedin' obvious.
That's not the point. The point is that a large number of drivers were confused, did the wrong thing and made it impossible for drivers, who did understand what was happening, to drive as required.
Although, getting away from what the overhead gantries were telling you, in fact absolutely nothing was happening and you were being ordered to do 40mph in lane 4 for no good reason.That's not the point. The point is that a large number of drivers were confused, did the wrong thing and made it impossible for drivers, who did understand what was happening, to drive as required.
So your life and everybody else's on that section of Motorway at that time would have been a far more pleasant experience without any interference from the 'poorly' managed Motorway at all.
cmaguire said:
Comparing that to a red traffic light is a bit daft. Traffic lights serve a legitimate purpose that can be appreciated by all and assuming they are functioning correctly then we can all accept that they are on a 'timer' that means we may be waiting on them at quiet times when there is no traffic crossing on the opposing green.
Speed enforcement is regularly a total nonsense with little justification and prior to its existence we managed perfectly well without it. Managed Motorways are an extension of this poor joke where we are expected to follow 'the rules' without question when they are frequently seen to be a totally unnecessary exercise in nothing other than the State telling us what to do and punishing us if we don't do as they say.
The lanes were covered by a Red Cross. The meaning of that is clear and simple and exactly the same as a Red light for the lane over which it is shown. Going back into that lane before being shown the derestricted or another appropriate sign is bad driving. Speed enforcement is regularly a total nonsense with little justification and prior to its existence we managed perfectly well without it. Managed Motorways are an extension of this poor joke where we are expected to follow 'the rules' without question when they are frequently seen to be a totally unnecessary exercise in nothing other than the State telling us what to do and punishing us if we don't do as they say.
Gavia said:
The lanes were covered by a Red Cross. The meaning of that is clear and simple and exactly the same as a Red light for the lane over which it is shown. Going back into that lane before being shown the derestricted or another appropriate sign is bad driving.
Why were they covered by a red cross?If you want to blindly follow the rules that's your business. I would prefer to follow the rules when they are applied with justification and ignore them when they are not. This is not something I gave much thought to 20 years ago but these days there are so many pointless and/or inappropriately applied rules it's almost unavoidable. My respect for the Law has decreased as their attempts to control us have increased.
Gavia said:
cmaguire said:
Comparing that to a red traffic light is a bit daft. Traffic lights serve a legitimate purpose that can be appreciated by all and assuming they are functioning correctly then we can all accept that they are on a 'timer' that means we may be waiting on them at quiet times when there is no traffic crossing on the opposing green.
Speed enforcement is regularly a total nonsense with little justification and prior to its existence we managed perfectly well without it. Managed Motorways are an extension of this poor joke where we are expected to follow 'the rules' without question when they are frequently seen to be a totally unnecessary exercise in nothing other than the State telling us what to do and punishing us if we don't do as they say.
The lanes were covered by a Red Cross. The meaning of that is clear and simple and exactly the same as a Red light for the lane over which it is shown. Going back into that lane before being shown the derestricted or another appropriate sign is bad driving. Speed enforcement is regularly a total nonsense with little justification and prior to its existence we managed perfectly well without it. Managed Motorways are an extension of this poor joke where we are expected to follow 'the rules' without question when they are frequently seen to be a totally unnecessary exercise in nothing other than the State telling us what to do and punishing us if we don't do as they say.
Fastpedeller said:
If a gantry has a red cross above the lane then that is fair enough, but if it's followed by 2 further gantries without red crosses what is the motorist to believe? The absence of a red cross surely implies it's ok to drive in that lane?
Nope. The Red Cross means do not proceed further in this lane. Until there's a sign to override it, then that lane remains closed. This is pretty basic Highwya Code stuff. Gavia said:
Fastpedeller said:
If a gantry has a red cross above the lane then that is fair enough, but if it's followed by 2 further gantries without red crosses what is the motorist to believe? The absence of a red cross surely implies it's ok to drive in that lane?
Nope. The Red Cross means do not proceed further in this lane. Until there's a sign to override it, then that lane remains closed. This is pretty basic Highwya Code stuff. Completely missing the point that what should be known and what should be done is all very well if every driver is competent, but the majority of drivers are not competent and, in circumstances like this, relying entirely on people doing what they should be doing is gross negligence on the part of the men with fingers on the gantry keyboards.
When something goes badly wrong, it won't be those people who are held to task, it will be the poor unfortunates who misunderstood what was going on around them because they should have known they were doing something wrong.
Bad form.
mybrainhurts said:
Spoken as though a trained plod. As always.
Completely missing the point that what should be known and what should be done is all very well if every driver is competent, but the majority of drivers are not competent and, in circumstances like this, relying entirely on people doing what they should be doing is gross negligence on the part of the men with fingers on the gantry keyboards.
When something goes badly wrong, it won't be those people who are held to task, it will be the poor unfortunates who misunderstood what was going on around them because they should have known they were doing something wrong.
Bad form.
Except, I'm not and never have been plod. I passed my test 31 years ago and still know what the signs mean, it's not difficult. Completely missing the point that what should be known and what should be done is all very well if every driver is competent, but the majority of drivers are not competent and, in circumstances like this, relying entirely on people doing what they should be doing is gross negligence on the part of the men with fingers on the gantry keyboards.
When something goes badly wrong, it won't be those people who are held to task, it will be the poor unfortunates who misunderstood what was going on around them because they should have known they were doing something wrong.
Bad form.
Thing is that although the rules are laid down, if a large percentage of drivers don't see it that way, the 'system' is failing. If signs are 'intuitive' drivers don't need to read the rule book to be able to understand. Putting a red cross above the closed lane(s) on every gantry until the lane is open wouldn't seem to be too onerous a task IMHO, and would save any ambiguity.
Shakermaker said:
I think I would love to be his insurance broker
Along the lines of:
"62 penalty points? Your policy for this year is £98,300, or a deposit of £12,000 followed by 9 equal payments of £11,000"
I knew of someone in somerset who had 21 points on their licence. They were motability and so didn't care about insurance as it came with the specially adapted car.Along the lines of:
"62 penalty points? Your policy for this year is £98,300, or a deposit of £12,000 followed by 9 equal payments of £11,000"
Gavia said:
Except, I'm not and never have been plod. I passed my test 31 years ago and still know what the signs mean, it's not difficult.
Nobody said it is difficult. It was said that doing 40mph in lane 4 in those circumstances puts you in a very tricky situation. Not tricky as in oh dear, look at all those silly people who don't understand signs, tricky as in somebody may well drive into the back of you at 70mph. creampuff said:
Nobody said it is difficult. It was said that doing 40mph in lane 4 in those circumstances puts you in a very tricky situation. Not tricky as in oh dear, look at all those silly people who don't understand signs, tricky as in somebody may well drive into the back of you at 70mph.
Your car isn't invisible at 40mph. There's also the question over whether it's an enforced 40 on a managed motorway, or an advisory one. If it's advisory, then drive at whatever speed you want. If it's enforced, then the person doing 70 will be picking up points galore before they run into the back of you. Anybody that has used our motorway systems will have come across totally pointless limits and warnings on the gantries.
Some are so regular it can only be operators having a laugh.
Animals or pedestrian on the motorway on the M40 is favourite.
Speed restrictions for 5 or more miles before an incident that turns out to be a car with a puncture on the hard shoulder is a bit excessive.
Much I think is down to the call handlers getting the information wrong or not understanding if you give them the reference number off the posts at the side of the motorway .
This gives the direction on the motorway and the distance along the motorway .
Some are so regular it can only be operators having a laugh.
Animals or pedestrian on the motorway on the M40 is favourite.
Speed restrictions for 5 or more miles before an incident that turns out to be a car with a puncture on the hard shoulder is a bit excessive.
Much I think is down to the call handlers getting the information wrong or not understanding if you give them the reference number off the posts at the side of the motorway .
This gives the direction on the motorway and the distance along the motorway .
grumpy52 said:
Anybody that has used our motorway systems will have come across totally pointless limits and warnings on the gantries.
Some are so regular it can only be operators having a laugh.
Animals or pedestrian on the motorway on the M40 is favourite.
Speed restrictions for 5 or more miles before an incident that turns out to be a car with a puncture on the hard shoulder is a bit excessive.
Much I think is down to the call handlers getting the information wrong or not understanding if you give them the reference number off the posts at the side of the motorway .
This gives the direction on the motorway and the distance along the motorway .
Is the M40 a managed motorway anywhere? Speed "limits" displayed in Amber with flashing lights are advisory only. Some are so regular it can only be operators having a laugh.
Animals or pedestrian on the motorway on the M40 is favourite.
Speed restrictions for 5 or more miles before an incident that turns out to be a car with a puncture on the hard shoulder is a bit excessive.
Much I think is down to the call handlers getting the information wrong or not understanding if you give them the reference number off the posts at the side of the motorway .
This gives the direction on the motorway and the distance along the motorway .
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