my rights buying car online auction I think I can ask refund
Discussion
TallPaul said:
So its pretty clear the only way to bid for salvage with Car Transplants is to register and the only way to register is to confirm you are a trader?
...and the auction section of their website is headed...CarTransplants said:
Features
- Salvage cars sourced direct from insurance companies.
- Providing the salvage industry with used and damaged autos for over 40 years.
- Salvage vehicles can be inspected before you bid on the online auction.
TallPaul said:
OP, what are you hoping for?
The moon on a stick with change from a fiver.Seems the OP has gone quiet - and all without even telling us what the apparent damage to the car in question was...
bladebloke said:
Mojooo said:
No I am not a solicitor but the relevant sections of the legislation are only a few paragraphs and not hard to understand
People on this forum and many others tend to want to say what rights they think the buyer should have as opposed to the rights they do have.
But with respect, you are over simplifying the situation. Not through your interpretation of the regs, but as to whether or not they would apply.People on this forum and many others tend to want to say what rights they think the buyer should have as opposed to the rights they do have.
The regs, of course, only apply to consumer contracts. OP has bought from a site that is apparently stated to be for trade customers only, so OP might well have made a representation, by bidding, that he is a trader. And by bidding, her will also have accepted their terms of sale, which I would expect include a warrant by the bidder that he is a trader. So the OP now trying to claim, having done all this, that he is a consumer will, I would think, be tricky!
Just having a general term that everyone is a trader is unlikely to be sufficient - but I have not gone through the whole process of signing up to the trader to see what steps they have in place to ensure that all buyers are trade purchasers.
In this day and age it is not that unusual for consumers to buy stuff direct from breakers. I have certainly bought parts.
Where does the site make clear on the front page it is business to business only?
There is also no mention of it that is obvious to me in the terms linked to at the bottom of the page:
http://www.car-transplants.co.uk/docs/t-and-cs.pdf
It is also not listed in the FAQ
http://www.car-transplants.co.uk/faq/
There is no mention of it on the auction page
https://auctions.car-transplants.co.uk/
That being said, I note they do mention it on another terms and condition page and I have not gone through their sign up process.
I think it is fair to say at the least their website could be clearer.
Mojooo said:
I think I made that caveat clear though in my earlier post.
Just having a general term that everyone is a trader is unlikely to be sufficient - but I have not gone through the whole process of signing up to the trader to see what steps they have in place to ensure that all buyers are trade purchasers.
In this day and age it is not that unusual for consumers to buy stuff direct from breakers. I have certainly bought parts.
Where does the site make clear on the front page it is business to business only?
There is also no mention of it that is obvious to me in the terms linked to at the bottom of the page:
http://www.car-transplants.co.uk/docs/t-and-cs.pdf
It is also not listed in the FAQ
http://www.car-transplants.co.uk/faq/
There is no mention of it on the auction page
https://auctions.car-transplants.co.uk/
That being said, I note they do mention it on another terms and condition page and I have not gone through their sign up process.
I think it is fair to say at the least their website could be clearer.
To bid you have to pay to register.Just having a general term that everyone is a trader is unlikely to be sufficient - but I have not gone through the whole process of signing up to the trader to see what steps they have in place to ensure that all buyers are trade purchasers.
In this day and age it is not that unusual for consumers to buy stuff direct from breakers. I have certainly bought parts.
Where does the site make clear on the front page it is business to business only?
There is also no mention of it that is obvious to me in the terms linked to at the bottom of the page:
http://www.car-transplants.co.uk/docs/t-and-cs.pdf
It is also not listed in the FAQ
http://www.car-transplants.co.uk/faq/
There is no mention of it on the auction page
https://auctions.car-transplants.co.uk/
That being said, I note they do mention it on another terms and condition page and I have not gone through their sign up process.
I think it is fair to say at the least their website could be clearer.
To register you have to agree to the terms & conditions.
The terms & conditions clearly require the user to acknowlwdge they are a trader for profit and not a consumer.
A consumer can obviously lie but doing so, in my opinion, negates them from any consumer protection.
Pay your money and take your chances like all the other traders.
I work at an online auction site, the law is very simple regarding online auctions.
As long as the item is as described (ie we only sell broken cars it doesn't need to be in every cars description) and as long as you have been given the chance to view if you bid you have legal brought the car in a as described condition.
If you decide not to view you are accepting the risk and throwing away any consumer rights you may have, we have been taken to the small claims many times and no one's ever won!
As long as the item is as described (ie we only sell broken cars it doesn't need to be in every cars description) and as long as you have been given the chance to view if you bid you have legal brought the car in a as described condition.
If you decide not to view you are accepting the risk and throwing away any consumer rights you may have, we have been taken to the small claims many times and no one's ever won!
Whether something is a PUBLIC AUCTION for the purposes of consumer rights is stated in the Consumer Rights Directive which states:
"A public auction implies that traders and consumers attend or are given the possibility to attend the auction in person. The goods or services are offered by the trader to the consumer through a bidding procedure authorised by law in some Member States, to offer goods or services at public sale. The successful bidder is bound to purchase the goods or services. The use of online platforms for auction purposes which are at the disposal of consumers and traders should not be considered as a public auction within the meaning of this Directive."
It is very clear that for something to be a PUBLIC AUCTION and therefore give the consumer lesser rights (and take away the 14 day cooling off period) you must be able to attend the bidding procedure.
Opening the warehouse for 2 minutes on a Sunday night is irrelevant - the chance to view is not the key. The chance to watch the hammer coming down is.
"A public auction implies that traders and consumers attend or are given the possibility to attend the auction in person. The goods or services are offered by the trader to the consumer through a bidding procedure authorised by law in some Member States, to offer goods or services at public sale. The successful bidder is bound to purchase the goods or services. The use of online platforms for auction purposes which are at the disposal of consumers and traders should not be considered as a public auction within the meaning of this Directive."
It is very clear that for something to be a PUBLIC AUCTION and therefore give the consumer lesser rights (and take away the 14 day cooling off period) you must be able to attend the bidding procedure.
Opening the warehouse for 2 minutes on a Sunday night is irrelevant - the chance to view is not the key. The chance to watch the hammer coming down is.
If you are not going to take advise from someone working in the industry I wish you good luck.
Please be aware that the auction site is acting as an agent for the vendor and legally it is the vender selling the goods therefore you need to claim from them, however the auction site has no obligation to give the information of who the vendor is.
Also if they have clearly stated the sale is not a consumer sale and the sale of goods act 1979 does not apply you cannot claim, likewise if they have clearly stated the goods are secondhand and not fit for purpose then the auctioneer will be deemed to have acted in a satisfactory manner.
Hope this industry information helps.
Please be aware that the auction site is acting as an agent for the vendor and legally it is the vender selling the goods therefore you need to claim from them, however the auction site has no obligation to give the information of who the vendor is.
Also if they have clearly stated the sale is not a consumer sale and the sale of goods act 1979 does not apply you cannot claim, likewise if they have clearly stated the goods are secondhand and not fit for purpose then the auctioneer will be deemed to have acted in a satisfactory manner.
Hope this industry information helps.
The fact that you work in the industry does not make you right (as someone who has previously advised many businesses). IME many businesses think that just because everyone else is doing it it must be legal.
There are numerous examples of many major businesses interpreting the law incorrectly. for example:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10560466
If it is a proper auction I don't see the problem - we are all in agreement that B2B rules apply in that case. The point is a lot of places calling themselves auctions are not actually auctions as defined in the law and therefore if the bueyr is a consumer then B2C rules apply.
The issue raised by the OP is whether it actually is a public auction and furthermore even if it isn't whether they can be classed as a trader.
There are numerous examples of many major businesses interpreting the law incorrectly. for example:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10560466
If it is a proper auction I don't see the problem - we are all in agreement that B2B rules apply in that case. The point is a lot of places calling themselves auctions are not actually auctions as defined in the law and therefore if the bueyr is a consumer then B2C rules apply.
The issue raised by the OP is whether it actually is a public auction and furthermore even if it isn't whether they can be classed as a trader.
Mojooo said:
The fact that you work in the industry does not make you right (as someone who has previously advised many businesses). IME many businesses think that just because everyone else is doing it it must be legal.
There are numerous examples of many major businesses interpreting the law incorrectly. for example:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10560466
If it is a proper auction I don't see the problem - we are all in agreement that B2B rules apply in that case. The point is a lot of places calling themselves auctions are not actually auctions as defined in the law and therefore if the bueyr is a consumer then B2C rules apply.
The issue raised by the OP is whether it actually is a public auction and furthermore even if it isn't whether they can be classed as a trader.
I agree it doesn't make me right, but when you've seen the outcome from numerous similar cases you tend to twig on what the courts decide is and isn't legal!There are numerous examples of many major businesses interpreting the law incorrectly. for example:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10560466
If it is a proper auction I don't see the problem - we are all in agreement that B2B rules apply in that case. The point is a lot of places calling themselves auctions are not actually auctions as defined in the law and therefore if the bueyr is a consumer then B2C rules apply.
The issue raised by the OP is whether it actually is a public auction and furthermore even if it isn't whether they can be classed as a trader.
Mojooo said:
Whether something is a PUBLIC AUCTION for the purposes of consumer rights is stated in the Consumer Rights Directive which states:
"A public auction implies that traders and consumers attend or are given the possibility to attend the auction in person. The goods or services are offered by the trader to the consumer through a bidding procedure authorised by law in some Member States, to offer goods or services at public sale. The successful bidder is bound to purchase the goods or services. The use of online platforms for auction purposes which are at the disposal of consumers and traders should not be considered as a public auction within the meaning of this Directive."
It is very clear that for something to be a PUBLIC AUCTION and therefore give the consumer lesser rights (and take away the 14 day cooling off period) you must be able to attend the bidding procedure.
Opening the warehouse for 2 minutes on a Sunday night is irrelevant - the chance to view is not the key. The chance to watch the hammer coming down is.
so the fact you have a guy who works at one stating this isn't the case and many people have tried and failed to implement what you're saying makes no difference"A public auction implies that traders and consumers attend or are given the possibility to attend the auction in person. The goods or services are offered by the trader to the consumer through a bidding procedure authorised by law in some Member States, to offer goods or services at public sale. The successful bidder is bound to purchase the goods or services. The use of online platforms for auction purposes which are at the disposal of consumers and traders should not be considered as a public auction within the meaning of this Directive."
It is very clear that for something to be a PUBLIC AUCTION and therefore give the consumer lesser rights (and take away the 14 day cooling off period) you must be able to attend the bidding procedure.
Opening the warehouse for 2 minutes on a Sunday night is irrelevant - the chance to view is not the key. The chance to watch the hammer coming down is.
andymc said:
so the fact you have a guy who works at one stating this isn't the case and many people have tried and failed to implement what you're saying makes no difference
Not necessarily, only because he has not provided a reason as to why his auction is outside the scope of the law. I am happy for the debate. The fact that it is standard practice does not make it legal.IME small claims can be a bit random so I am not convinced that I am wrong without knowing the full facts of each case.
I suspect the courts, like many on here, take the view that you buy at auction you take the risk - but the law clearly states that is not the case in every type of auction.
Mojooo said:
andymc said:
so the fact you have a guy who works at one stating this isn't the case and many people have tried and failed to implement what you're saying makes no difference
Not necessarily, only because he has not provided a reason as to why his auction is outside the scope of the law. I am happy for the debate. The fact that it is standard practice does not make it legal.IME small claims can be a bit random so I am not convinced that I am wrong without knowing the full facts of each case.
I suspect the courts, like many on here, take the view that you buy at auction you take the risk - but the law clearly states that is not the case in every type of auction.
KevinCamaroSS said:
But I would suspect that there must have been at least one 'test case' at court which has, in fact, found in favour of the auction house that it is trade only therefore B2C regulations do not apply.
Not as far as I know - but if anyone can find it at High Court level or above please do post.It is well established that when you attend an auction the auction house could treat you as a trade buyer for the purposes of the Sale of Goods Act 1979 and now the Consumer Rights Act 2015. These protect you in terms of misdescriptions, not for for purposes, satisfactory quality.
The Consumer Contracts Regulations 2014 change that (and give you a 14 days cooling off period) and the rights under those Regs can only be restricted for certain types of auctions - once you can attend the bidding process in person. The law is absoltuley clear that online only auctions are not exempt from the Regs.
This is what the EU guidance says - bearing in mind our UK law stems from that:
http://ec.europa.eu/justice/consumer-marketing/fil...
Rules for public auctions
The replaced Distance Selling Directive 97/7/EC did not apply to contracts 'concluded at an
auction' (Article 3(1)). The new Directive applies to auctions, subject to specific rules
regarding 'public auction', defined under Article 2(13) as 'a method of sale where goods or
services are offered by the trader to consumers, who attend or are given the possibility to
attend the auction in person, through a transparent, competitive bidding procedure run by an
auctioneer and where the successful bidder is bound to purchase the goods or services'.
For public auctions Article 6(3) makes it possible to replace the identity, contact details and
geographical address of the establishment and place of business of the trader selling the goods
or services with those of the auctioneer. Furthermore, there is no right of withdrawal from
contracts concluded at a public auction pursuant to the exception in Article 16(k).
A public auction should give consumers the possibility to attend in person, even if it is also
possible to make bids online or by telephone. In contrast, online auctions without the
possibility to attend in person should not be considered public auctions.
Recital 24 specifies that '[…] the use of online platforms for auction purposes which are at
the disposal of consumers and traders should not be considered as a public auction within the
meaning of this Directive.' Accordingly, online auctions should be fully subject to the
Directive regarding, e.g., the pre-contractual information to be provided before the consumer
is bound by the contract (the bid) and the right of withdrawal.
Why you don't buy from transplants. They don't let you start the cars as its indoors.
Bought a few fro them but after they moved its not worth the risk.
Once but one from hills, saw it a few weeks previously had it started etc, chucked a big on it as lost the one I really wanted, when I went to collect they had no keys, I refused to complete purchase as they had mis-sold, got told ok, a few weeks later I was banned and expected to pay £50 due to not completing the sale, No emails etc exchanged, emailed them and got told tough luck.
Also viewed a corsa the same day I went looking, described as ok engine and gearbox driving etc, the wishbone was bent so unsure how they drove it, engine knocking its arse off, completely different to the advert but you need to check
Bought a few fro them but after they moved its not worth the risk.
Once but one from hills, saw it a few weeks previously had it started etc, chucked a big on it as lost the one I really wanted, when I went to collect they had no keys, I refused to complete purchase as they had mis-sold, got told ok, a few weeks later I was banned and expected to pay £50 due to not completing the sale, No emails etc exchanged, emailed them and got told tough luck.
Also viewed a corsa the same day I went looking, described as ok engine and gearbox driving etc, the wishbone was bent so unsure how they drove it, engine knocking its arse off, completely different to the advert but you need to check
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