Ministers question Speed Awareness Course effectiveness.
Discussion
It seems that the government might have been reading the recent but long running thread here, in which the effectiveness of Speed Awareness Courses was called into question by myself! 
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ministers-slam-b...
It goes on to reveal that nobody has any clue how many drivers who have been on courses, go on to reoffend, and it quotes the shadow transport minister, Richard Burden as saying “If ministers want to continue encouraging the use of diversionary courses as an alternative to fixed-penalty notices they must present the evidence that they are working in the intended way.”
This comes after awareness courses for mobile phone use offenders have been dropped and penalties hiked massively, and while the IAM in Scotland are pushing for SACs to be introduced there, with them (the IAM) benefitting from the running of the courses!
Should course providers really be reporting back on how effective they might be, without any evidence other than a questionnaire provided to attendees, which they are told must be filled in before they complete the course and leave?
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ministers-slam-b...
The Times said:
The government has also commissioned a review of the classes — the first for more than a decade — to address concerns that they fail to alter drivers’ attitudes.
You might remember that I highlighted that a course instructor had failed to practice what she preached - and had been the cause of a fatal accident.It goes on to reveal that nobody has any clue how many drivers who have been on courses, go on to reoffend, and it quotes the shadow transport minister, Richard Burden as saying “If ministers want to continue encouraging the use of diversionary courses as an alternative to fixed-penalty notices they must present the evidence that they are working in the intended way.”
This comes after awareness courses for mobile phone use offenders have been dropped and penalties hiked massively, and while the IAM in Scotland are pushing for SACs to be introduced there, with them (the IAM) benefitting from the running of the courses!
Should course providers really be reporting back on how effective they might be, without any evidence other than a questionnaire provided to attendees, which they are told must be filled in before they complete the course and leave?
There were many gasps from the audience in mine at a few things the tutor correctly said. He highlighted lots of areas of ignorance or lack of thought from his guests and made many advanced driving technique points. I thought it was all very positive and it was nice to be top of the class for once in my life LOL 
I was pleasantly surprised at the content (as had gone there for a fight!) and it also keeps 51yr old top cops busy and out of trouble too! Has to be better than pure cash grabs?
I was pleasantly surprised at the content (as had gone there for a fight!) and it also keeps 51yr old top cops busy and out of trouble too! Has to be better than pure cash grabs?Ken Figenus said:
There were many gasps from the audience in mine at a few things the tutor correctly said. He highlighted lots of areas of ignorance or lack of thought from his guests and made many advanced driving technique points. I thought it was all very positive and it was nice to be top of the class for once in my life LOL I was pleasantly surprised at the content (as had gone there for a fight!) and it also keeps 51yr old top cops busy and out of trouble too! Has to be better than pure cash grabs?
But if they are so effective, why is it only drivers just over the limit get to take them, while serial offenders and those well over the limit whose education would seem most wanting, are not offered or even told to take them? I was pleasantly surprised at the content (as had gone there for a fight!) and it also keeps 51yr old top cops busy and out of trouble too! Has to be better than pure cash grabs?Mill Wheel said:
But if they are so effective, why is it only drivers just over the limit get to take them, while serial offenders and those well over the limit whose education would seem most wanting, are not offered or even told to take them?
That is one of the best points you make.You know it makes sense don't you.If you have been to naughty we won't talk to you because we know better.Dave Finney said:
It would be easy enough to determine the effect of courses, just run scientific trials.
But since the authorities refuse to run scientific trials for speed cameras, I would be surprised if they really did want evidence of courses, and for that evidence to be public!
Quite.But since the authorities refuse to run scientific trials for speed cameras, I would be surprised if they really did want evidence of courses, and for that evidence to be public!
There's a whole office for statistics that might be of use nationally. But they don't seem to get let loose on any of this sort of stuff. Or even a data.gov.uk site where other people could crunch the raw numbers.
Dave Finney said:
It would be easy enough to determine the effect of courses, just run scientific trials.
But since the authorities refuse to run scientific trials for speed cameras, I would be surprised if they really did want evidence of courses, and for that evidence to be public!
They won't, because they know full well that there's not a snowball's chance of it showing up in the statistics.But since the authorities refuse to run scientific trials for speed cameras, I would be surprised if they really did want evidence of courses, and for that evidence to be public!
Accidents happen as a result of one or more very low-probability events, in an environment where even things like traffic volume can make a difference in probability of three orders of magnitude or more.
And here we have a measure, the effect of which, at best, cannot amount to more than a few percent to a small proportion of cases.
The phrase, "pi**ing in the ocean" comes to mind.
Mill Wheel said:
You might remember..
To avoid doubt, perhaps you would say what you would prefer the position to be, for instance, that speed awareness courses should be abolished and replaced with points/fines? Or that the prosecution thresholds should be raised? Speed limits increased? Speed limits abolished?I gather that you are complaining, but as a specialist in complaints myself I know that the first rule of complaining is that you decide what you want to have happen, and make that clear.
Mill Wheel said:
But if they are so effective, why is it only drivers just over the limit get to take them, while serial offenders and those well over the limit whose education would seem most wanting, are not offered or even told to take them?
For the same reason that those committing low level offences (of any description not just speeding) get offered cautions or suspended jail sentences whilst those committing the more serious offences get jail sentences, which increase in length based on the severity of the crime. I still don't understand why people get upset about SACs. If you don't like them then take the points, if you'd prefer a clean licence for half a day's classroom work, then do an SAC. It's simple really.
0000 said:
Quite.
There's a whole office for statistics that might be of use nationally. But they don't seem to get let loose on any of this sort of stuff. Or even a data.gov.uk site where other people could crunch the raw numbers.
They could start by comparing drivers involved in accidents (from insurance statistics) with those convicted of speeding. I doubt the result of that (non-correlation) would ever be published.There's a whole office for statistics that might be of use nationally. But they don't seem to get let loose on any of this sort of stuff. Or even a data.gov.uk site where other people could crunch the raw numbers.
Glosphil said:
0000 said:
Quite.
There's a whole office for statistics that might be of use nationally. But they don't seem to get let loose on any of this sort of stuff. Or even a data.gov.uk site where other people could crunch the raw numbers.
They could start by comparing drivers involved in accidents (from insurance statistics) with those convicted of speeding. I doubt the result of that (non-correlation) would ever be published.There's a whole office for statistics that might be of use nationally. But they don't seem to get let loose on any of this sort of stuff. Or even a data.gov.uk site where other people could crunch the raw numbers.
singlecoil said:
To avoid doubt, perhaps you would say what you would prefer the position to be, for instance, that speed awareness courses should be abolished and replaced with points/fines? Or that the prosecution thresholds should be raised? Speed limits increased? Speed limits abolished?
I gather that you are complaining, but as a specialist in complaints myself I know that the first rule of complaining is that you decide what you want to have happen, and make that clear.
I have to agree. They are a rare breath of fresh air when all there seems to be is often a wallet lunge and a bit of disproportionate misery for an often irrelevant misdemeanour. We all know that 79mph on a motorway is not worthy of bothering with but for the waggy finger 'rules isnt rules unless you enforce them' or the 'you will kill more children more quickly at 79mph' brigade then SAC should potentially be a better option. Its rehabilitation over 'lock em up'!I gather that you are complaining, but as a specialist in complaints myself I know that the first rule of complaining is that you decide what you want to have happen, and make that clear.
I had a positive experience on mine and many of my (non petrolhead) mates who have been on the same one said the same. I gather other courses may not be as good of course. Shame.
djc206 said:
Gavia said:
Why does it matter whether they work or not? It's a free pass for a low level speeding offence.
Bingo. One day I will get caught speeding and hope that I can do a course to save me the 3 points. I don't care if they work or not.Gavia said:
djc206 said:
Gavia said:
Why does it matter whether they work or not? It's a free pass for a low level speeding offence.
Bingo. One day I will get caught speeding and hope that I can do a course to save me the 3 points. I don't care if they work or not.I found the one I went on both useful and frustrating.
I went with a negative / bad attitude but the course was mostly useful and a useful reminder particularly as it focused as much on observation as speed(ing)
What was frustrating was he number of attendees who didn't know some fairly basic stuff. If you never drive a lorry then maybe you don't need to know he speed limit of a lorry, fair enough. But the percentage who got dual carriageway confused with two lanes or didn't know the speed limit as a result was shocking. And these are only the people who got caught. The numbers in the general population would be huge.
My recommendation at the end was every driver should do this at some point if not regularly.
I went with a negative / bad attitude but the course was mostly useful and a useful reminder particularly as it focused as much on observation as speed(ing)
What was frustrating was he number of attendees who didn't know some fairly basic stuff. If you never drive a lorry then maybe you don't need to know he speed limit of a lorry, fair enough. But the percentage who got dual carriageway confused with two lanes or didn't know the speed limit as a result was shocking. And these are only the people who got caught. The numbers in the general population would be huge.
My recommendation at the end was every driver should do this at some point if not regularly.
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