Ministers question Speed Awareness Course effectiveness.

[V8RX7]

singlecoil said:

Mill Wheel said:

You might remember..

To avoid doubt, perhaps you would say what you would prefer the position to be, for instance, that speed awareness courses should be abolished and replaced with points/fines?

Or that the prosecution thresholds should be raised?

If we were to go back to the previous situation, they would simply be abolished.

Previously a Policeman would either not pull you for such slight infractions or tell you off they really weren't "instead of points" as you hadn't reached that threshold - unless you failed the attitude test.

[Gavia]

p1esk said:

OK, you think all hell would break loose, and I don't.

...and then you mention 'whizzing around twice as fast as before', which sounds like wild talk to me.

Anyhow, neither of us knows what would happen. We're both attempting to forecast the result - which is always an uncertain business - so I guess we'll just have to agree to differ.

I know I would be the perfect NIMBY, I'd be unhappy at people whizzing around near my house, but I'd have no problem doing it near theirs. I'd certainly belt through a few villages near me and some of the old bypasses would get the full on treatment too. I'm pretty certain that kids would go for it at every opportunity.

It's all guesswork anyway as it will never happen, but if it did, I'd happily make sure I do some stupid speed past your house

[singlecoil]

V8RX7 said:

singlecoil said:

Mill Wheel said:

You might remember..

To avoid doubt, perhaps you would say what you would prefer the position to be, for instance, that speed awareness courses should be abolished and replaced with points/fines?

Or that the prosecution thresholds should be raised?

If we were to go back to the previous situation, they would simply be abolished.

Previously a Policeman would either not pull you for such slight infractions or tell you off they really weren't "instead of points" as you hadn't reached that threshold - unless you failed the attitude test.

Do you feel that would be a better system, assuming you do, any thoughts on how the extra costs could be met?

[mickmcpaddy]

Gavia said:

I know I would be the perfect NIMBY, I'd be unhappy at people whizzing around near my house, but I'd have no problem doing it near theirs. I'd certainly belt through a few villages near me and some of the old bypasses would get the full on treatment too. I'm pretty certain that kids would go for it at every opportunity.

It's all guesswork anyway as it will never happen, but if it did, I'd happily make sure I do some stupid speed past your house

Exactly, I cant wait for the day when after 30 years of saving I buy a new Mercedes, hopefully speed limits will have been abolished by then and the first thing that I will do to celebrate is drive at 150mph round a blind bend and stuff it into a wall. Best decision I will ever make.

[Crackie]

Gavia said:

Crackie said:

Gavia said:

I do around 15000 miles a year on bikes and car and don't believe I'm that lucky. the more I pay attention, the luckier I get.

Well done, did you get a certificate or medal ?

Edited by Crackie on Sunday 19th March 21:46

Did you edit that 6 hours later, just to continue to look tough to your buddies?

Do you believe that careful observation, whilst exceeding the limit, is sufficient to avoid be caught by some form of mobile enforcement ?

If so where in the UK do you drive / ride your 15000 miles ?

[Davidonly]

Gavia said:

Davidonly said:

The business model is a distraction from more effective ideas and approaches that might actually help improve our roads.

You seem to be a very arrogant person. You will blend in with most of the pro-establishment drones here There are some notable exceptions who do actually represent a logical position on the 'pro mindless enforcement' side of the discussion. Very few. One perhaps. Von.

Your point is weakened by the ad hominem nature of your posts.

However, to be clear the business model is irrelevant. The enforcement is the thing that matters and that has to be done for the law to be effective or at least respected to some extent. If there were zero enforcement then it would be anarchy on the roads.

There is now far more enforcement with no proof of any benefit than there was during the 1980's and 1990's. And more recently an exponential increase with so-called SMART (dumb) motorways and many more ASC's (specs etc). The issue is that the disbenefits are not being quantified as much as the case for any benefit is not made. We need a better way forward and an end to this stupid fixation (with no science at its base) on speed alone. The SAC model is a wheeze to allow things to perpetuate without the government copping the flack.

[Gavia]

Crackie said:

Do you believe that careful observation, whilst exceeding the limit, is sufficient to avoid be caught by some form of mobile enforcement ?

If so where in the UK do you drive / ride your 15000 miles ?

In the main, yes I do. I think most stats back my view up too. I bet the number of drivers have points on their licences is far smaller than those with a clean licence and I doubt that they're all driving round within the speed limits. Sooner or later I get caught, but it's rare given the volume if speeding I do.

[singlecoil]

Davidonly said:

There is now far more enforcement with no proof of any benefit than there was during the 1980's and 1990's. And more recently an exponential increase with so-called SMART (dumb) motorways and many more ASC's (specs etc). The issue is that the disbenefits are not being quantified as much as the case for any benefit is not made. We need a better way forward and an end to this stupid fixation (with no science at its base) on speed alone. The SAC model is a wheeze to allow things to perpetuate without the government copping the flack.

The benefit of enforcement is that because of that enforcement drivers are more likely to stay within, or at least close to, the speed limits.

If you have an argument it's with the limits, not the enforcement.

[Davidonly]

7db said:

I don't think it's consistent to argue that most drivers are rubbish and then not argue that the ones whose observation is so utterly shoddy that they fail to spot a great big yellow box on a 20ft pole wouldn't benefit from a little refresher course in how it all works.

I'd give some extra training to everyone, but I suppose prioritising those who are the worst seems to be the best use of resources.

Most speed cameras are much less obvious that that.. as I am sure you are aware. Most people in the unfortunate position to be providing revenues to SAC's are pinged by mobiles in as-near unmarked vans as makes no difference: hidden in hedges / at the sides of flyovers or by sly HADECS 3 scammers variously enforcing the NSL (most ambiguous that) or the pointless reductions on clear roads.

When those poor sods 'done' on a motorway go on the course they are no-doubt berated about the potential that they 'mow down' innocent kids playing in the street.... on the M42...? go figure.

It is utter tosh.

[V8RX7]

singlecoil said:

V8RX7 said:

singlecoil said:

Mill Wheel said:

You might remember..

To avoid doubt, perhaps you would say what you would prefer the position to be, for instance, that speed awareness courses should be abolished and replaced with points/fines?

Or that the prosecution thresholds should be raised?

If we were to go back to the previous situation, they would simply be abolished.

Previously a Policeman would either not pull you for such slight infractions or tell you off they really weren't "instead of points" as you hadn't reached that threshold - unless you failed the attitude test.

Do you feel that would be a better system, assuming you do, any thoughts on how the extra costs could be met?

The extra costs of NOT enforcing minor infractions ?

[Davidonly]

singlecoil said:

Davidonly said:

There is now far more enforcement with no proof of any benefit than there was during the 1980's and 1990's. And more recently an exponential increase with so-called SMART (dumb) motorways and many more ASC's (specs etc). The issue is that the disbenefits are not being quantified as much as the case for any benefit is not made. We need a better way forward and an end to this stupid fixation (with no science at its base) on speed alone. The SAC model is a wheeze to allow things to perpetuate without the government copping the flack.

The benefit of enforcement is that because of that enforcement drivers are more likely to stay within, or at least close to, the speed limits.

If you have an argument it's with the limits, not the enforcement.

Its with both..... The situation 'worked' when the limit was a useful tool to 'pull' poor drivers and take them to task. That was how it worked before automated enforcement. It was sensible to allow reasonable overspeeds where the limit was less relevant or for safer overtaking. All that common sense is deleted now.

Its a total pig's ear.

[singlecoil]

V8RX7 said:

singlecoil said:

V8RX7 said:

singlecoil said:

Mill Wheel said:

You might remember..

To avoid doubt, perhaps you would say what you would prefer the position to be, for instance, that speed awareness courses should be abolished and replaced with points/fines?

Or that the prosecution thresholds should be raised?

If we were to go back to the previous situation, they would simply be abolished.

Previously a Policeman would either not pull you for such slight infractions or tell you off they really weren't "instead of points" as you hadn't reached that threshold - unless you failed the attitude test.

Do you feel that would be a better system, assuming you do, any thoughts on how the extra costs could be met?

The extra costs of NOT enforcing minor infractions ?

No, the extra cost of putting enough policemen in enough cars to be able to 'tell off' (assuming a successful attitude test) a sufficient number of motorists to have an effect.

[Gavia]

Davidonly said:

There is now far more enforcement with no proof of any benefit than there was during the 1980's and 1990's. And more recently an exponential increase with so-called SMART (dumb) motorways and many more ASC's (specs etc). The issue is that the disbenefits are not being quantified as much as the case for any benefit is not made. We need a better way forward and an end to this stupid fixation (with no science at its base) on speed alone. The SAC model is a wheeze to allow things to perpetuate without the government copping the flack.

"Exponential increase", it's hyperbole like this that make your posts so open to easy criticism.

I've experienced the M62 from Halifax to Leeds pre and post Smart motorway and it's a huge amount better now in rush hour. When the NSL applies you can drive through at 90 with no comeback whatsoever. The same applies to the M42 around Birmingham.

What do you want to happen?

[singlecoil]

Davidonly said:

singlecoil said:

Davidonly said:

There is now far more enforcement with no proof of any benefit than there was during the 1980's and 1990's. And more recently an exponential increase with so-called SMART (dumb) motorways and many more ASC's (specs etc). The issue is that the disbenefits are not being quantified as much as the case for any benefit is not made. We need a better way forward and an end to this stupid fixation (with no science at its base) on speed alone. The SAC model is a wheeze to allow things to perpetuate without the government copping the flack.

The benefit of enforcement is that because of that enforcement drivers are more likely to stay within, or at least close to, the speed limits.

If you have an argument it's with the limits, not the enforcement.

Its with both..... The situation 'worked' when the limit was a useful tool to 'pull' poor drivers and take them to task. That was how it worked before automated enforcement. It was sensible to allow reasonable overspeeds where the limit was less relevant or for safer overtaking. All that common sense is deleted now.

Its a total pig's ear.

Because there isn't enough policemen in enough cars, or the money to pay for them.

[Gavia]

Davidonly said:

Its with both..... The situation 'worked' when the limit was a useful tool to 'pull' poor drivers and take them to task. That was how it worked before automated enforcement. It was sensible to allow reasonable overspeeds where the limit was less relevant or for safer overtaking. All that common sense is deleted now.

Its a total pig's ear.

There are still thresholds before you're prosecuted and SACs are part of that tolerance.

[V8RX7]

singlecoil said:

If you have an argument it's with the limits, not the enforcement.

It's both.

Those of us who have been driving for 20+yrs drove with very similar limits but knew that unless we were exceeding them excessively we were very unlikely to get a ticket and that if it was in a reasonable situation then it could usually be negotiated down to 3 points at the roadside.

You had 4 chances and only idiots were banned.

Now it's entirely possible to get a ban within one journey (or a week) without knowing it - ie no chance to moderate your driving having built up 3,6,9 points.

I know a few Tradesmen who have / are driving through bans as they really have no alternative - who exactly does that help ?

[JNW1]

Gavia said:

Davidonly said:

There is now far more enforcement with no proof of any benefit than there was during the 1980's and 1990's. And more recently an exponential increase with so-called SMART (dumb) motorways and many more ASC's (specs etc). The issue is that the disbenefits are not being quantified as much as the case for any benefit is not made. We need a better way forward and an end to this stupid fixation (with no science at its base) on speed alone. The SAC model is a wheeze to allow things to perpetuate without the government copping the flack.

"Exponential increase", it's hyperbole like this that make your posts so open to easy criticism.

I've experienced the M62 from Halifax to Leeds pre and post Smart motorway and it's a huge amount better now in rush hour. When the NSL applies you can drive through at 90 with no comeback whatsoever. The same applies to the M42 around Birmingham.

What do you want to happen?

I would say that over the last decade or so there has been a significant increase in the use of cameras for speed limit enforcement and that their proliferation has happened more rapidly in recent years; in that context exponential is arguably not an unreasonable word to use?

As for being able to drive through cameras on SMART motorways at 90mph without fear of prosecution, perhaps you can at the moment but how long before the authorities start to use them to enforce the NSL? Just remember that when cameras were first introduced they were meant to improve safety and were to be sited at blackspots where there was a history of accidents; however, look at where a lot of mobile camera vans tend to sit nowadays and you'll see that's no longer the case (if indeed it ever was). Therefore, I think to believe that cameras on SMART motorways won't be used eventually to enforce the NSL is probably naive - it's just a matter of time IMO.

[Gavia]

JNW1 said:

Gavia said:

Davidonly said:

There is now far more enforcement with no proof of any benefit than there was during the 1980's and 1990's. And more recently an exponential increase with so-called SMART (dumb) motorways and many more ASC's (specs etc). The issue is that the disbenefits are not being quantified as much as the case for any benefit is not made. We need a better way forward and an end to this stupid fixation (with no science at its base) on speed alone. The SAC model is a wheeze to allow things to perpetuate without the government copping the flack.

"Exponential increase", it's hyperbole like this that make your posts so open to easy criticism.

I've experienced the M62 from Halifax to Leeds pre and post Smart motorway and it's a huge amount better now in rush hour. When the NSL applies you can drive through at 90 with no comeback whatsoever. The same applies to the M42 around Birmingham.

What do you want to happen?

I would say that over the last decade or so there has been a significant increase in the use of cameras for speed limit enforcement and that their proliferation has happened more rapidly in recent years; in that context exponential is arguably not an unreasonable word to use?

As for being able to drive through cameras on SMART motorways at 90mph without fear of prosecution, perhaps you can at the moment but how long before the authorities start to use them to enforce the NSL? Just remember that when cameras were first introduced they were meant to improve safety and were to be sited at blackspots where there was a history of accidents; however, look at where a lot of mobile camera vans tend to sit nowadays and you'll see that's no longer the case (if indeed it ever was). Therefore, I think to believe that cameras on SMART motorways won't be used eventually to enforce the NSL is probably naive - it's just a matter of time IMO.

He described the increase in smart motorways as exponential, the Specs stuff wasn't in the same description, but even so I haven't seen them increase, other than temporarily in motorway roadworks.

The argument about when the SMART motorways are always active has been raging since they were first introduced and nothing has changed. You're confusing where fixed cameras can be sited with mobile cameras in the accidemt blackspot thing.

I don't see many camera vans on the roads at all. The way you all talk, you'd think they were on every corner.

So what if they've increased, they're still easy to spot and thisnis about Speed Awareness Courses and not Speed Cameras. I stand by my view that I like the idea of choice and choosing an SAC is what I'll do every time I possibly can; points and fines are the last resort for me.

[singlecoil]

V8RX7 said:

Now it's entirely possible to get a ban within one journey (or a week) without knowing it - ie no chance to moderate your driving having built up 3,6,9 points.

Has that ever happened?

[V8RX7]

singlecoil said:

V8RX7 said:

Now it's entirely possible to get a ban within one journey (or a week) without knowing it - ie no chance to moderate your driving having built up 3,6,9 points.

Has that ever happened?

Of course it has !