Ministers question Speed Awareness Course effectiveness.

[Crackie]

singlecoil said:

JNW1 said:

Crackie said:

BertBert said:

Not much of a gross generalisation then

Crackie said:

I agree too. Sadly the group of people that see cars as no more than transport are often the oblivious irresponsible types who, I think, are responsible ( directly and indirectly ) for more of the KSI accidents on the UKs roads than any other group.

possibly a little bit of a generalisation ............I did say often.

Edited by Crackie on Monday 27th March 19:08

It's probably fair to say that when people have an interest in something they tend to make a better fist of it than when they couldn't care less (and that applies to things like work, sport, gardening, cookery, etc, etc, not just driving). Therefore, I think there's a certain logic that says those who have no interest in driving ("my car is purely a means of getting from A to B") are more likely to be relatively clueless behind the wheel; so yes your comment was a generalisation but I suspect it was also pretty close to the mark!

On the other hand, enthusiasts are more likely to drive faster, and that sometimes involves overtaking slower vehicles, which is one of the more dangerous activities that occur on roads.

You may have hit the nail on the head there Singlecoil. I think many enthusiasts would prefer travel faster but that is often just a desire to travel at the NSL ( when conditions are suitable ).

I, and about 30 cars + a tractor + the local Ripon to Leeds 36 bus followed a Citroen Picasso from Ripon to Harrogate along the A61 a few days ago at a very sedate 40mph.

I was about 10 cars back and witnessed some very risky overtaking manoeuvers carried out by the cars in the queue in front of me. I think that if the Picasso had been travelling at NSL, none of the 'risky' manoeuvers would have been contemplated, let alone attempted.

I think genuine safety improvements would result if these 'oblivious' drivers were also made to attend speed awareness courses. The reason I chose the word oblivious is that the Picasso maintained that consistent 40mph pace, throughout the journey, including the 30mph sections too.

[vonhosen]

Crackie said:

singlecoil said:

JNW1 said:

Crackie said:

BertBert said:

Not much of a gross generalisation then

Crackie said:

I agree too. Sadly the group of people that see cars as no more than transport are often the oblivious irresponsible types who, I think, are responsible ( directly and indirectly ) for more of the KSI accidents on the UKs roads than any other group.

possibly a little bit of a generalisation ............I did say often.

Edited by Crackie on Monday 27th March 19:08

It's probably fair to say that when people have an interest in something they tend to make a better fist of it than when they couldn't care less (and that applies to things like work, sport, gardening, cookery, etc, etc, not just driving). Therefore, I think there's a certain logic that says those who have no interest in driving ("my car is purely a means of getting from A to B") are more likely to be relatively clueless behind the wheel; so yes your comment was a generalisation but I suspect it was also pretty close to the mark!

On the other hand, enthusiasts are more likely to drive faster, and that sometimes involves overtaking slower vehicles, which is one of the more dangerous activities that occur on roads.

You may have hit the nail on the head there Singlecoil. I think many enthusiasts would prefer travel faster but that is often just a desire to travel at the NSL ( when conditions are suitable ).

I, and about 30 cars + a tractor + the local Ripon to Leeds 36 bus followed a Citroen Picasso from Ripon to Harrogate along the A61 a few days ago at a very sedate 40mph.

I was about 10 cars back and witnessed some very risky overtaking manoeuvers carried out by the cars in the queue in front of me. I think that if the Picasso had been travelling at NSL, none of the 'risky' manoeuvers would have been contemplated, let alone attempted.

I think genuine safety improvements would result if these 'oblivious' drivers were also made to attend speed awareness courses. The reason I chose the word oblivious is that the Picasso maintained that consistent 40mph pace, throughout the journey, including the 30mph sections too.

JNW1 said:

Overtaking can increase risk and done badly it can certainly be dangerous; however, in my view it shouldn't represent a problem for a competent driver. I also suspect that a lot of the time the difficulties with overtaking arise because those that don't want to overtake fail to leave adequate gaps for those that do; however, that takes us back to the "my car's just for getting from A to B" brigade....

So incompetent drivers overtaking a driver travelling at a speed below the posted limit?

[singlecoil]

JNW1 said:

Overtaking can increase risk and done badly it can certainly be dangerous; however, in my view it shouldn't represent a problem for a competent driver. I also suspect that a lot of the time the difficulties with overtaking arise because those that don't want to overtake fail to leave adequate gaps for those that do; however, that takes us back to the "my car's just for getting from A to B" brigade....

No, I said enthusiast, not competent. It's not the same thing AT ALL. In some cases, it will be the polar opposite.

[Crackie]

vonhosen said:

So incompetent drivers overtaking a driver travelling at a speed below the posted limit?

Not sure whether your question relates to my post or JNW1's or both but some of the overtaking manoeuvers I saw were unsafe / incompetent and some were fine. A safe ( and legal ) opportunity to pass didn't present itself during the six mind numbing miles I followed immediately behind the Citroen.

[cmaguire]

Crackie said:

Not sure whether your question relates to my post or JNW1's or both but some of the overtaking manoeuvers I saw were unsafe / incompetent and some were fine. A safe ( and legal ) opportunity to pass didn't present itself during the six mind numbing miles I followed immediately behind the Citroen.

Perhaps you should focus on the 'safe' part and ignore the 'legal' part as they are frequently counter-productive. And just hope you get away with it (the illegal bit).

[JNW1]

singlecoil said:

JNW1 said:

Overtaking can increase risk and done badly it can certainly be dangerous; however, in my view it shouldn't represent a problem for a competent driver. I also suspect that a lot of the time the difficulties with overtaking arise because those that don't want to overtake fail to leave adequate gaps for those that do; however, that takes us back to the "my car's just for getting from A to B" brigade....

No, I said enthusiast, not competent. It's not the same thing AT ALL. In some cases, it will be the polar opposite.

I agree being an enthusiast doesn't necessarily equate to being competent; however, I also think someone who thinks about what they're doing - and takes a pride in it - is more likely to be competent than someone who takes no interest.

[singlecoil]

JNW1 said:

singlecoil said:

JNW1 said:

Overtaking can increase risk and done badly it can certainly be dangerous; however, in my view it shouldn't represent a problem for a competent driver. I also suspect that a lot of the time the difficulties with overtaking arise because those that don't want to overtake fail to leave adequate gaps for those that do; however, that takes us back to the "my car's just for getting from A to B" brigade....

No, I said enthusiast, not competent. It's not the same thing AT ALL. In some cases, it will be the polar opposite.

I agree being an enthusiast doesn't necessarily equate to being competent; however, I also think someone who thinks about what they're doing - and takes a pride in it - is more likely to be competent than someone who takes no interest.

Yes, but 'enthusiast' covers a much wider range of meanings. It also includes idiots with 'Scoobies' etc. Enough engine power to get into serious trouble and not enough brain power to avoid it.

[cmaguire]

singlecoil said:

Yes, but 'enthusiast' covers a much wider range of meanings. It also includes idiots with 'Scoobies' etc. Enough engine power to get into serious trouble and not enough brain power to avoid it.

What was that 200mph car you had anyway?

[singlecoil]

cmaguire said:

singlecoil said:

Yes, but 'enthusiast' covers a much wider range of meanings. It also includes idiots with 'Scoobies' etc. Enough engine power to get into serious trouble and not enough brain power to avoid it.

What was that 200mph car you had anyway?

I didn't 'have' it, I was driving it. And it didn't quite do 200mph either.

[cmaguire]

singlecoil said:

I didn't 'have' it, I was driving it. And it didn't quite do 200mph either.

More information required. A bit cagey.

[JNW1]

vonhosen said:

So incompetent drivers overtaking a driver travelling at a speed below the posted limit?

I'm familiar with the stretch of road to which Crackie refers and some of the driving along there really is depressing; people crawling along way below the NSL for no good reason and it's not unusual to see lorries, buses and vans being held-up by slow moving cars. I'm sure someone will be along in a minute to say speed limits aren't targets and if these people aren't in a rush they're entitled to go as slowly as they want; however, when you see them dab their brakes for a corner which frankly could have been taken at a speed 20mph more than they were going it's pretty obvious the issue is more one of incompetence than having too much time on their hands.

Of course two wrongs don't make a right and dangerous overtaking isn't acceptable; however, in my view it's the Mr and Mrs Picassos of this world who often cause the initial problem. The reality of course is that the Picasso driver in the scenario described by Crackie was in the wrong vehicle - their rightful place was really on the number 36 bus...

[singlecoil]

cmaguire said:

singlecoil said:

I didn't 'have' it, I was driving it. And it didn't quite do 200mph either.

More information required. A bit cagey.

Fair enough- it was metallic silver and had leather upholstery, but I can't remember what colour the seats were.

[p1esk]

cmaguire said:

Crackie said:

Not sure whether your question relates to my post or JNW1's or both but some of the overtaking manoeuvers I saw were unsafe / incompetent and some were fine. A safe ( and legal ) opportunity to pass didn't present itself during the six mind numbing miles I followed immediately behind the Citroen.

Perhaps you should focus on the 'safe' part and ignore the 'legal' part as they are frequently counter-productive. And just hope you get away with it (the illegal bit).

Exactly; that's what I do. I think you and I have a bit in common.

BTW, when (on a single carriageway road) we see a white painted square on the road surface in the middle of each lane, are they always a standard distance apart along the length of the road, in which case is it, by any chance, a quarter of a mile?

I only ask because I've recently acquired a bit of dashcam material from the old 406, and while it includes a few rather nice overtakes (I reckon), it also shows these damned squares, and my time over such sections is embarrassingly short.

[p1esk]

p1esk said:

cmaguire said:

Crackie said:

Not sure whether your question relates to my post or JNW1's or both but some of the overtaking manoeuvers I saw were unsafe / incompetent and some were fine. A safe ( and legal ) opportunity to pass didn't present itself during the six mind numbing miles I followed immediately behind the Citroen.

Perhaps you should focus on the 'safe' part and ignore the 'legal' part as they are frequently counter-productive. And just hope you get away with it (the illegal bit).

Exactly; that's what I do. I think you and I have a bit in common.

BTW, when (on a single carriageway road) we see a white painted square on the road surface in the middle of each lane, are they always a standard distance apart along the length of the road, in which case is it, by any chance, a quarter of a mile?

I only ask because I've recently acquired a bit of dashcam material from the old 406, and while it includes a few rather nice overtakes (I reckon), it also shows these damned squares, and my time over such sections is embarrassingly short.

I think all you can do, Dave, is deploy a bit of crafty editing so that the wretched squares do not appear.