Consumer Rights Act dispute
Discussion
Consumer Rights Act advice
Chaps, I am in a dispute with the people that fitted a rather expensive domestic alarm system (Risco Agility 3). They are members of Checkatrade and Trustpilot
They fitted the system on 16th December. We used it until 27th February with what we thought were no problems. That morning, I walked out of the house without unsetting the alarm, for the first time. It failed to sound. To this day, I have no idea if it ever worked.
I contacted the company, who sent an engineer out the next day. Communications were cordial until this point. They supposedly fixed the alarm. I sent a friendly e-mail thanking them for great service (if only I knew!), and for turning up the next day.
On 2nd March, the alarm failed to sound. I tested various sensors around the house: PIR and door/shock. None of them triggered the alarm.
At this point, I wrote to them, stating that I wanted them to come and take the alarm away, and to refund both its cost and the installation costs, as well as making good the damage where sensors were removed etc.
They wrote back to me stating that they would refund the alarm, but not the installation. I (perhaps incorrectly) cited the Consumer Rights Act at them, stating that I wanted my money back for the installation charge. They came back at me stating that they would not refund this charge as a) I had had the system for more than 30 days and had stated that I was happy with the installation. They would offer £75 for inconvenience.
I am royally pissed off as as far as I am concerned, they provided a paid service (installation) that has not resulted in what I consider to be the desired result (a working system).
Somewhat unfortunately, the Act only requires that a service be provided with reasonable care and skill. The alarm not working could be their fault, but it may not be (defective equipment).
1) Do I basically have to give them endless chances to rectify the problem?
2) Do they have to continue to try to rectify until it works? Their latest e-mail states that they will make “one last attempt” to remedy the situation, by replacing the alarm panel. Or is their only obligation to take the alarm back and refund its cost, leaving me with no working alarm and no refund of the installation fee?
2) the attempts at rectification (2 so far). I have not paid for these. Are they covered by the Act?
Basically, I need to assert that their service was sub-standard, de facto, as the alarm stopped working. Their argument is that their service was fine, but the alarm is faulty. They have recently tried to assert that the alarm manufacturer is saying that the issue is “environmental”. I fail to see how this could be the case – we are in London, with perfect broadband and phone line, rather than the Outer Hebrides!
What has annoyed me is their attitude here, and the fact that I may have to pay for a service that in my mind was not adequately performed (result bad) but in their mind was just fine (alarm worked, and then broke, so installation itself was fine).
They are also I feel relying on the amounts being small enough for me to not make a fuss. If the case is clear cut, I’d actually spend a few thousand and some days off in court to bring them to heel and make sure they do not do this to anyone else…
Chaps, I am in a dispute with the people that fitted a rather expensive domestic alarm system (Risco Agility 3). They are members of Checkatrade and Trustpilot
They fitted the system on 16th December. We used it until 27th February with what we thought were no problems. That morning, I walked out of the house without unsetting the alarm, for the first time. It failed to sound. To this day, I have no idea if it ever worked.
I contacted the company, who sent an engineer out the next day. Communications were cordial until this point. They supposedly fixed the alarm. I sent a friendly e-mail thanking them for great service (if only I knew!), and for turning up the next day.
On 2nd March, the alarm failed to sound. I tested various sensors around the house: PIR and door/shock. None of them triggered the alarm.
At this point, I wrote to them, stating that I wanted them to come and take the alarm away, and to refund both its cost and the installation costs, as well as making good the damage where sensors were removed etc.
They wrote back to me stating that they would refund the alarm, but not the installation. I (perhaps incorrectly) cited the Consumer Rights Act at them, stating that I wanted my money back for the installation charge. They came back at me stating that they would not refund this charge as a) I had had the system for more than 30 days and had stated that I was happy with the installation. They would offer £75 for inconvenience.
I am royally pissed off as as far as I am concerned, they provided a paid service (installation) that has not resulted in what I consider to be the desired result (a working system).
Somewhat unfortunately, the Act only requires that a service be provided with reasonable care and skill. The alarm not working could be their fault, but it may not be (defective equipment).
1) Do I basically have to give them endless chances to rectify the problem?
2) Do they have to continue to try to rectify until it works? Their latest e-mail states that they will make “one last attempt” to remedy the situation, by replacing the alarm panel. Or is their only obligation to take the alarm back and refund its cost, leaving me with no working alarm and no refund of the installation fee?
2) the attempts at rectification (2 so far). I have not paid for these. Are they covered by the Act?
Basically, I need to assert that their service was sub-standard, de facto, as the alarm stopped working. Their argument is that their service was fine, but the alarm is faulty. They have recently tried to assert that the alarm manufacturer is saying that the issue is “environmental”. I fail to see how this could be the case – we are in London, with perfect broadband and phone line, rather than the Outer Hebrides!
What has annoyed me is their attitude here, and the fact that I may have to pay for a service that in my mind was not adequately performed (result bad) but in their mind was just fine (alarm worked, and then broke, so installation itself was fine).
They are also I feel relying on the amounts being small enough for me to not make a fuss. If the case is clear cut, I’d actually spend a few thousand and some days off in court to bring them to heel and make sure they do not do this to anyone else…
personally I would give them one more chance to fix it, then threaten small claims.
I would rather it fixed due to the amount of time it will take to deinstall, find someone new and get another install.
But I wouldn't be okay with anything less than a full refund if they couldn't fix it. It matters not if the alarm I faulty. They have supplied it, ergo their problem.
I would rather it fixed due to the amount of time it will take to deinstall, find someone new and get another install.
But I wouldn't be okay with anything less than a full refund if they couldn't fix it. It matters not if the alarm I faulty. They have supplied it, ergo their problem.
This is a wireless system?.
Are you saying that each time they visited your house to fit and subsequently check it, they didn't actually test it while you were there?
Or they did, but after they left it stopped working?
If you have a local source of interference swamping the wireless signals, this could be the 'environmental' issues they are referring to. There may be no solution to that. A competent installer should have access to an RF spectrum analyser to check this. You could ask them if they do and if not that could count against them if you had to go the legal route.
You could do a lot worse than contact Which? consumer rights. They have a team of legal rights lawyers who will discuss your case and give you good advice. It costs about £30 for a year I think and I've used it myself.
Checkatrade etc. are in my view a total waste of time and in no way give you any sort of guarantee the trader is any good at what they do or even honest.
Is the installer registered with a recognised trade organisation such as SSAIB or NACOSS?
Are you saying that each time they visited your house to fit and subsequently check it, they didn't actually test it while you were there?
Or they did, but after they left it stopped working?
If you have a local source of interference swamping the wireless signals, this could be the 'environmental' issues they are referring to. There may be no solution to that. A competent installer should have access to an RF spectrum analyser to check this. You could ask them if they do and if not that could count against them if you had to go the legal route.
You could do a lot worse than contact Which? consumer rights. They have a team of legal rights lawyers who will discuss your case and give you good advice. It costs about £30 for a year I think and I've used it myself.
Checkatrade etc. are in my view a total waste of time and in no way give you any sort of guarantee the trader is any good at what they do or even honest.
Is the installer registered with a recognised trade organisation such as SSAIB or NACOSS?
Harry Flashman said:
They fitted the system on 16th December. We used it until 27th February with what we thought were no problems.
I contacted the company, who sent an engineer out the next day.
On 2nd March, the alarm failed to sound. I tested various sensors around the house: PIR and door/shock. None of them triggered the alarm.
At this point, I wrote to them, stating that I wanted them to come and take the alarm away, and to refund both its cost and the installation costs, as well as making good the damage where sensors were removed etc.
2) the attempts at rectification (2 so far).
You've only mentioned one.I contacted the company, who sent an engineer out the next day.
On 2nd March, the alarm failed to sound. I tested various sensors around the house: PIR and door/shock. None of them triggered the alarm.
At this point, I wrote to them, stating that I wanted them to come and take the alarm away, and to refund both its cost and the installation costs, as well as making good the damage where sensors were removed etc.
2) the attempts at rectification (2 so far).
Harry Flashman said:
Basically, I need to assert that their service was sub-standard, de facto, as the alarm stopped working. Their argument is that their service was fine, but the alarm is faulty. They have recently tried to assert that the alarm manufacturer is saying that the issue is “environmental”. I fail to see how this could be the case – we are in London, with perfect broadband and phone line, rather than the Outer Hebrides!
You're in London. You have a wireless alarm. This makes problems MORE likely, not less, than if you were in the Outer Hebrides - due to radio interference from external sources.I presume they actually tested the system once installed, and after the February problem?
You're being a bit premature in your rejection, imho.
Good advice - if the alarm is not working due to interference, this changes things. I would rather it was fixed.
However, if they, as a competent installer, failed to test and advise that the system would have difficulties, surely this means that their service is not adequate? They sold and fitted something not fit for purpose, after putting themselves out as experts!
If they can fix it, fine. If not - I want my money back!
PS - second rectification attempt was made 3rd March. First was made 28th Feb. Both times they tested it, ot worked, then stopped working.
However, if they, as a competent installer, failed to test and advise that the system would have difficulties, surely this means that their service is not adequate? They sold and fitted something not fit for purpose, after putting themselves out as experts!
If they can fix it, fine. If not - I want my money back!
PS - second rectification attempt was made 3rd March. First was made 28th Feb. Both times they tested it, ot worked, then stopped working.
Harry Flashman said:
However, if they, as a competent installer, failed to test and advise that the system would have difficulties
You tell us whether they tested... You were the one who was there...Harry Flashman said:
If they can fix it, fine. If not - I want my money back!
They can't fix it if you won't let 'em.Perhaps the interference wasn't present at the time of install?
The way this often works is a company will supply goods and/or a service which are inadequate in some way.
The customer complains and asks for their money back.
The company then refers to their terms and conditions which state "blah blah blah" and refuse to pay up.
What you have to establish first is whether "blah blah blah" is the law or whether they have just made it up. Consumer rights cannot be overridden by someone making up their own Ts&Cs, but companies often make out they can so they don't have to abide by the law.
Services are covered by the Consumer Rights Act 2015, so they cannot say they are only legally obliged to refund the cost of the alarm itself.
Go after them in the right way and you will probably get your money back without having to go near a Court. Or just get them to fix it once and for all.
BTW, 30 days is a red herring. You have 6 months to go back to them and demand a full refund or make it work.
The customer complains and asks for their money back.
The company then refers to their terms and conditions which state "blah blah blah" and refuse to pay up.
What you have to establish first is whether "blah blah blah" is the law or whether they have just made it up. Consumer rights cannot be overridden by someone making up their own Ts&Cs, but companies often make out they can so they don't have to abide by the law.
Services are covered by the Consumer Rights Act 2015, so they cannot say they are only legally obliged to refund the cost of the alarm itself.
Go after them in the right way and you will probably get your money back without having to go near a Court. Or just get them to fix it once and for all.
BTW, 30 days is a red herring. You have 6 months to go back to them and demand a full refund or make it work.
TooMany2cvs said:
Harry Flashman said:
However, if they, as a competent installer, failed to test and advise that the system would have difficulties
You tell us whether they tested... You were the one who was there...Harry Flashman said:
If they can fix it, fine. If not - I want my money back!
They can't fix it if you won't let 'em.Perhaps the interference wasn't present at the time of install?
And as I also said, I have asked them to fix - twice. They are coming for the third time on Monday.
FurtiveFreddy said:
The way this often works is a company will supply goods and/or a service which are inadequate in some way.
The customer complains and asks for their money back.
The company then refers to their terms and conditions which state "blah blah blah" and refuse to pay up.
What you have to establish first is whether "blah blah blah" is the law or whether they have just made it up. Consumer rights cannot be overridden by someone making up their own Ts&Cs, but companies often make out they can so they don't have to abide by the law.
Services are covered by the Consumer Rights Act 2015, so they cannot say they are only legally obliged to refund the cost of the alarm itself.
Go after them in the right way and you will probably get your money back without having to go near a Court. Or just get them to fix it once and for all.
BTW, 30 days is a red herring. You have 6 months to go back to them and demand a full refund or make it work.
Thank you. This was my reading of the ACt.,The customer complains and asks for their money back.
The company then refers to their terms and conditions which state "blah blah blah" and refuse to pay up.
What you have to establish first is whether "blah blah blah" is the law or whether they have just made it up. Consumer rights cannot be overridden by someone making up their own Ts&Cs, but companies often make out they can so they don't have to abide by the law.
Services are covered by the Consumer Rights Act 2015, so they cannot say they are only legally obliged to refund the cost of the alarm itself.
Go after them in the right way and you will probably get your money back without having to go near a Court. Or just get them to fix it once and for all.
BTW, 30 days is a red herring. You have 6 months to go back to them and demand a full refund or make it work.
They sent an e-mail stating that as I said I was happy with their installation (I was, until the alarm stopped working), they are entitled to keep that cost.
To my mind, this service subsequently has proved to be inadequately provided and thus, if I can prove they performed it to a substandard level, I can.
If they didn't test to make sure the system would be suitable for its application, this is unlikely to be service to the correct standard.
Harry Flashman said:
They sent an e-mail stating that as I said I was happy with their installation (I was, until the alarm stopped working), they are entitled to keep that cost.
It's irrelevant what you say up to the point when it stopped working.The simple fact is that if the goods or services prove defective within 6 months of you paying for them, you have certain rights under the Act and it doesn't matter what they say, they have to abide by the Act.
I had the same sort of thing with a ceramic kitchen sink which was delivered with a crack in it (I only noticed when it came to installing it 3 weeks after delivery) and the supplier tried to make out that because their Ts and Cs stated that the customer has to let them know within 14 days of any defect, they didn't have to refund me.
It took a few emails and a couple of threatening letters but it was obvious their 'customer services team' had been instructed to fabricate that nonsense because it works with 90% of the customers they owe a refund to. Once I sent them a letter before action funnily enough they caved in and refunded me in full, including interest.
There's plenty of boilerplate out there to help you construct a nice official sounding letter and the small claims/fast track procedure is pretty easy to follow if they still refuse to cooperate.
I'd think about a wired alarm system though if you are really concerned about your security and want a reliable system you can use all the time without worrying about whether it works or not.
Any new phone masts gone up nearby? You haven't had a new phone yourself?
The frequency your alarm works on appears to be bang in the middle of a mobile frequency although that could be the gsm element of your alarm.
Either way as others have said, I suspect something local to you is lifting the noise floor and wiping your sensors out. It needs someone in to assess your local environment and see what's what.
London is hellishly noisy from an RF point of view.
The frequency your alarm works on appears to be bang in the middle of a mobile frequency although that could be the gsm element of your alarm.
Either way as others have said, I suspect something local to you is lifting the noise floor and wiping your sensors out. It needs someone in to assess your local environment and see what's what.
London is hellishly noisy from an RF point of view.
Harry Flashman said:
Damned annoying as a wired system would have been easy to install when we were renovating. Now, post decorating, a lot less so.
I am really cross with these fools.
Reads to me like you are mad with yourself for not getting a proper system installed and are now pissed off with the wireless system not functioning correctly.I am really cross with these fools.
To my mind, the alarm and installation are one and the same. You didn't give them a box of parts and ask them to install it - they supplied and fitted a complete system and whether it's the alarm or installation at fault isn't any concern of yours.
If it was a wireless system and they are blaming interference then as mentioned they should attend and demonstrate that interference to you, preferably with a printed screenshot. If interference exists, then you are entitled to report it to Ofcom and would need their evidence for them to take action. (My guess is that there is no interference and it's some other fault)
If the wireless system isn't adequate for the house (eg. poor signal strength) then it's still their fault for specifying and installing it without proper testing.
If it was a wireless system and they are blaming interference then as mentioned they should attend and demonstrate that interference to you, preferably with a printed screenshot. If interference exists, then you are entitled to report it to Ofcom and would need their evidence for them to take action. (My guess is that there is no interference and it's some other fault)
If the wireless system isn't adequate for the house (eg. poor signal strength) then it's still their fault for specifying and installing it without proper testing.
Alucidnation said:
Harry Flashman said:
Damned annoying as a wired system would have been easy to install when we were renovating. Now, post decorating, a lot less so.
I am really cross with these fools.
Reads to me like you are mad with yourself for not getting a proper system installed and are now pissed off with the wireless system not functioning correctly.I am really cross with these fools.
That said, neighbours have a wireless system (not Risco). Works perfectly, so...
Harry Flashman said:
Actually, I wanted a wired system and asked them for one, but they recommended a wireless one for this application. I have this in writing (e-mails). So yes, I'm a bit cross.
That said, neighbours have a wireless system (not Risco). Works perfectly, so...
Maybe the neighbour's one is interfering with yours...That said, neighbours have a wireless system (not Risco). Works perfectly, so...
There's a reason they would recommend a wireless system over a wired one. Much less work for them and less skill required.
Installing a wired alarm efficiently and without leaving holes and wires showing everywhere is a really skilled job IMO. When mine was done, I couldn't work out how they had fed some of the wiring from one place to another, it was all so well hidden.
Don't get me wrong, wireless systems can work, but if there's a reliability issue it can be much harder to sort out than with copper.
There is a good explanation here:
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/...
The important piece of information is:
After a lot of arguing W***s agreed to a refund for the Hob (£900). They didn't have another hob that I wanted so I bought on elsewhere.
As part of the refund and in accordance to the Consumer Rights Act W***s had to uninstall the faulty hob and install the new hob and no cost to me.
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/...
The important piece of information is:
which said:
The trader should either redo the element of the service that's inadequate, or perform the whole service again at no extra cost to you, within a reasonable time and without causing you significant inconvenience.
Last year I bought a kitchen from W***s and had it installed by one of their fitters. The Induction Hob developed a number of faults (after about 6 weeks). This was outside the time for the "right to immediately reject". I had to allow them 1 chance to fix the issue. The service engineer had a go but he did not succeed.After a lot of arguing W***s agreed to a refund for the Hob (£900). They didn't have another hob that I wanted so I bought on elsewhere.
As part of the refund and in accordance to the Consumer Rights Act W***s had to uninstall the faulty hob and install the new hob and no cost to me.
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