Twice the limit - absolute discharge!!!

[anonymous-user]

Granfondo said:

You have illustrated my original point. Get a breathalyser and try it - I doubt you'd be falling about pissed at twice the drink drive limit. As I said everyone is different, but it's in the region of 3 - 4 pints for me. Definitely not enough to make me visibly drunk or bring out the horror that it does in some people.

The quote is even sometimes used in cases where driving was not the crime.

[QuickQuack]

For those who are asking for the evidence: Go to PubMed and search there, or if you're too lazy, at least try googling. Don't rely on anything other than indexed papers in PubMed/Medline for medical and biological scientific evidence; everything else on the internet is pure, unadultarated, unproven, untested load of junk. There are thousands of studies and articles describing the effect of various levels of blood alcohol concentrations (BAC). Fair enough, you do need to sift through a hell of a lot of irrelevant papers, but there are still thousands of relevant ones.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=alcohol+...

Various tasks necessary for driving start being affected at all levels of BAC, obviously the higher the BAC, the more functions start being impaired and to a more pronounced degree. In addition, alocohol increases risk taking behaviour both in driving and other activities. It has also been shown that the drinkers themselves are very poor at judging their own level of impairment. Here are just a few that I found in a matter of minutes, spend a few more and you can find out quite a bit.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20730680

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26247196

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25463962

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26231663

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S...

[QuickQuack]

bmw535i said:

I just think the mock horror from people who talk about others being twice over the limit is quite hysterical. I could be 3-4 times over the DD limit and people around me wouldn't even know I was drunk. Everyone is different of course.

Everyone is different in how drunk they get but there are plenty of properly conducted trials which demonstrate that the ability to drive, make decisons and risk taking behaviours are worsened at blood alcohol levels where the people concerned do not feel drunk ar feel themselves to be affected by the alocohol. That includes self-awereness of drunk behaviour or alcohol induced impairment in capacity to function normally.

As an aside, if you were 3-4 times over the limit, you would still be pissed as a fart. What confers one an ability to be able to drink large amounts is the capacity of that persons liver to be able to break alcohol down rapidly enough, not their brain's capacity to be able to function normally at high blood alcohol levels. The alcohol dehydrogenase enzymes in the liver are inducable which means that the more frequently and the more you drink, the better your liver gets at removing alcohol from your blood. Until, of course, it becomes pickled and cirrhotic. The brain can adapt to tolerate the sedative and ataxic effects of alcohol to a certain extent, but judgement, reaction times, spatial awareness etc. are still significantly impaired.

[anonymous-user]

QuickQuack said:

Everyone is different in how drunk they get but there are plenty of properly conducted trials which demonstrate that the ability to drive, make decisons and risk taking behaviours are worsened at blood alcohol levels where the people concerned do not feel drunk ar feel themselves to be affected by the alocohol. That includes self-awereness of drunk behaviour or alcohol induced impairment in capacity to function normally.

As an aside, if you were 3-4 times over the limit, you would still be pissed as a fart. What confers one an ability to be able to drink large amounts is the capacity of that persons liver to be able to break alcohol down rapidly enough, not their brain's capacity to be able to function normally at high blood alcohol levels. The alcohol dehydrogenase enzymes in the liver are inducable which means that the more frequently and the more you drink, the better your liver gets at removing alcohol from your blood. Until, of course, it becomes pickled and cirrhotic. The brain can adapt to tolerate the sedative and ataxic effects of alcohol to a certain extent, but judgement, reaction times, spatial awareness etc. are still significantly impaired.

3-4 times over the limit would be about 6-8 pints for me. That wouldn't make me feel or appear pissed as a fart. I wouldn't drive of course, but I wouldn't be falling about pissed.

[QuickQuack]

bmw535i said:

QuickQuack said:

Everyone is different in how drunk they get but there are plenty of properly conducted trials which demonstrate that the ability to drive, make decisons and risk taking behaviours are worsened at blood alcohol levels where the people concerned do not feel drunk ar feel themselves to be affected by the alocohol. That includes self-awereness of drunk behaviour or alcohol induced impairment in capacity to function normally.

As an aside, if you were 3-4 times over the limit, you would still be pissed as a fart. What confers one an ability to be able to drink large amounts is the capacity of that persons liver to be able to break alcohol down rapidly enough, not their brain's capacity to be able to function normally at high blood alcohol levels. The alcohol dehydrogenase enzymes in the liver are inducable which means that the more frequently and the more you drink, the better your liver gets at removing alcohol from your blood. Until, of course, it becomes pickled and cirrhotic. The brain can adapt to tolerate the sedative and ataxic effects of alcohol to a certain extent, but judgement, reaction times, spatial awareness etc. are still significantly impaired.

3-4 times over the limit would be about 6-8 pints for me. That wouldn't make me feel or appear pissed as a fart. I wouldn't drive of course, but I wouldn't be falling about pissed.

Depending on the extent to which your liver ADH enzymes have been induced, the precise capacity of your particular ADHs (there are many genotypes, some can process alcohol very efficiently, some are not so good, and some don't actually work), the time period in which you have consumed the alcohol, other accompaniments you have had with your alcohol (food reduces the absorption of alcohol from your stomach and intestines, so reduces peak blood alcohol level), the amount of water you have had to drink and your total body hydration, your kidney function, weight, muscle vs fat ratio, circulating volume and a few other things including the % ethanol in your particular beer, you might actually find that you need to drink a hell of a lot more than 6-8 pints of beer to get to 3-4 times over the limit. It's not a simple equation of "I weigh this much so need x number of pints of beer to me to y times over the limit," it's far more comlicated than that.

[anonymous-user]

QuickQuack said:

Depending on the extent to which your liver ADH enzymes have been induced, the precise capacity of your particular ADHs (there are many genotypes, some can process alcohol very efficiently, some are not so good, and some don't actually work), the time period in which you have consumed the alcohol, other accompaniments you have had with your alcohol (food reduces the absorption of alcohol from your stomach and intestines, so reduces peak blood alcohol level), the amount of water you have had to drink and your total body hydration, your kidney function, weight, muscle vs fat ratio, circulating volume and a few other things including the % ethanol in your particular beer, you might actually find that you need to drink a hell of a lot more than 6-8 pints of beer to get to 3-4 times over the limit. It's not a simple equation of "I weigh this much so need x number of pints of beer to me to y times over the limit," it's far more comlicated than that.

I only speak from personal experience.

[Dagnir]

Go easy on her though...clearly her facial reconstruction after the crash, has gone horribly awry and thus the universse has taught her a lesson.

[Pachydermus]

caelite said:

Imo we either need a more realistic limit, similar to that in Australia

Australia's limit is the same as Scotland and is much more vigorously enforced.

[caelite]

Pachydermus said:

caelite said:

Imo we either need a more realistic limit, similar to that in Australia

Australia's limit is the same as Scotland and is much more vigorously enforced.

I was under the impression you could have 2 or 3 pints under Australian law. I honestly don't know where I got that impression as you are entirely correct.

[aka_kerrly]

caelite said:

Pachydermus said:

caelite said:

Imo we either need a more realistic limit, similar to that in Australia

Australia's limit is the same as Scotland and is much more vigorously enforced.

I was under the impression you could have 2 or 3 pints under Australian law. I honestly don't know where I got that impression as you are entirely correct.

The biggest single difference between the UK and Australian laws is that in Oz if you are only marginally over the limit and it's your first offence you get demerit points and a fine but retain the ability to drive. On your second offence you can get a 6 month ban, and up to 8 months on your third. If you are double or more over the limit you get three chances before a lifetime ban!


In the UK you get a minimum 12 month ban for being only a tiny bit over the limit with the potential to reduce that to 9 months by attending a course. I'd say that has a much larger impact on ones life than a couple hundred quid fine & some points!!!!!

I cannot believe that the spiked drink argument worked!

[caelite]

aka_kerrly said:

caelite said:

Pachydermus said:

caelite said:

Imo we either need a more realistic limit, similar to that in Australia

Australia's limit is the same as Scotland and is much more vigorously enforced.

I was under the impression you could have 2 or 3 pints under Australian law. I honestly don't know where I got that impression as you are entirely correct.

The biggest single difference between the UK and Australian laws is that in Oz if you are only marginally over the limit and it's your first offence you get demerit points and a fine but retain the ability to drive. On your second offence you can get a 6 month ban, and up to 8 months on your third. If you are double or more over the limit you get three chances before a lifetime ban!


In the UK you get a minimum 12 month ban for being only a tiny bit over the limit with the potential to reduce that to 9 months by attending a course. I'd say that has a much larger impact on ones life than a couple hundred quid fine & some points!!!!!

I cannot believe that the spiked drink argument worked!

Ah thats a very fair system, pretty much what I was proposing in my rant too, I realistically can't see liberalisation of ANY UK laws in the current political climate, never mind road traffic.

[berlintaxi]

Dammit said:

This struck me as the strangest part of the story: "threw a party to mark her moving to Harbourne in Birmingham."

You would have to be pretty pissed to even consider moving to Birmingham.

[crazy about cars]

I know I would still be capable to drive after a few pints however I won't as I know I will not be able guarantee I will have the same performance as when I'm stone cold sober. I won't drive if I've touched alcohol full stop because I know my body can process alcohol fairly well and I might not be able to judge it's effects.

Simple question, would you allow a surgeon who's had a few pints operate on you if he says he doesn't feel pissed?

[spookly]

QuickQuack said:

For those who are asking for the evidence: Go to PubMed and search there, or if you're too lazy, at least try googling. Don't rely on anything other than indexed papers in PubMed/Medline for medical and biological scientific evidence; everything else on the internet is pure, unadultarated, unproven, untested load of junk. There are thousands of studies and articles describing the effect of various levels of blood alcohol concentrations (BAC). Fair enough, you do need to sift through a hell of a lot of irrelevant papers, but there are still thousands of relevant ones.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/?term=alcohol+...

Various tasks necessary for driving start being affected at all levels of BAC, obviously the higher the BAC, the more functions start being impaired and to a more pronounced degree. In addition, alocohol increases risk taking behaviour both in driving and other activities. It has also been shown that the drinkers themselves are very poor at judging their own level of impairment. Here are just a few that I found in a matter of minutes, spend a few more and you can find out quite a bit.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20730680

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26247196

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25463962

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26231663

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S...

I agree.
Not only does alcohol start to effect from small amounts.... not all drivers are starting from the same level of skills and awareness. There are already drivers I see every day that are too sh*t to be on the road. Imagine those same sh*t drivers after a few drinks.... I suspect that's what happened in this case, just made a st driver into a liability.

[Sa Calobra]

berlintaxi said:

You would have to be pretty pissed to even consider moving to Birmingham.

It has nice parts, the motorway signs towards M6 North are particularly welcome.

[anonymous-user]

Sa Calobra said:

the North

[Sa Calobra]

The north is also home to the magnificent Greater Manchester Police

[Terminator X]

"I drank OJ all night officer how was I supposed to know some scoundrel had spiked it" ...

TX.

[donkmeister]

bmw535i said:

You have illustrated my original point. Get a breathalyser and try it - I doubt you'd be falling about pissed at twice the drink drive limit. As I said everyone is different, but it's in the region of 3 - 4 pints for me. Definitely not enough to make me visibly drunk or bring out the horror that it does in some people.

I agree with you that everyone is different, but I feel tipsy when right on the English drink drive limit even though I might not be staggering about the place. I certainly wouldn't be driving at that level of impairment.

I bought an Alcosense because I didn't want to be one of those people who thought they were sober the next morning but turned out to be *just* over the limit. I bought it as it is one of the more accurate home testers, and I calibrated it following the instructions to the letter.

I have not been able to make my breath alcohol go above 55, and I felt pretty s**tfaced at that concentration even though it is well under 2x the limit of 35. I'm a big lad, but it took 2 bottles of wine over 4-5 hours to hit that, and I felt it the next morning. That next morning, my breath was still at 15 so I could legally drive but again, I did not feel it would be wise. I realise everyone is different, but the only way I would imagine people get to 2-3 times the limit is to be actively banging back drinks before they drive, these are belligerent drink drivers of the "I've always done this, the law is therefore wrong" variety.

Those people pulled at 100+ must be drinking neat vodka whilst they drive.

I honestly cannot believe people *accidentally* drink and drive unless they have some sort of liver malfunction, in which case they shouldn't be drinking anyway.

I'd support a lower drink-drive limit, breath of 10 or 20.

[sospan]

A party into the night and the glasses etc. left out. In the morning you just pick one up and drink it? A stale glass of drink?
That is like some of the characters who cleared up in pubs drinking the dregs as a perk!
She didn't pour a fresh glass for herself?
An imaginative defence lawyer with a gullible judge!
Someone who is supposedly well educated to qualify for her job is that scatty and careless?
There must have been some very credible corroborating witness testimony!