Radar Jammers - not advised!
Discussion
voiceofdoom said:
Just thought you guys would like to know
Is this as much
as it sounds? Why would anyone go to the huge expense of fitting tens of thousands of sensors everywhere, given that no cars currently have the transponders, there is no legislation in place to require people to have the transponders, and no mechanism to extract money from anyone via the transponders. Or have the UFOs snuck down in the middle of the night and secretly fitted transponders to all our cars? You can't see them, of course, because they're really well hidden. This must prove that they're extra-terrestrial because we haven't developed that technology ourselves. Oops shouldn't have mentioned that because it's well known that the FBI monitor these forums ... 
Digital said:
Boosted LS1 said:
A bit of mud on yer plate goes a long way and it's only a £30 fine if you ever see a bib car.
<a href="www.sprayonmud.com/">www.sprayonmud.com/</a>
I thought that you were kidding, but decided to click on the link anyway. Well I never....
Edited to add that a lovingly polished and waxed motor with just a "random" splash of mud right where it counts isn't really going to fool anyone is it?!? Time to stop cleaning my car then so that at least it will be convincing - either that or a camouflage paintjob to go with the mud.
>> Edited by nel on Tuesday 7th June 23:00
1) Is this as much as it sounds?
Ans: No, I wish it was
2) Why would anyone go to the huge expense of fitting tens of thousands of sensors everywhere?
Ans: £300 million per year in lost tax disc income
Ans: Road Tolls
Ans: Congestion charging
Ans: Monitoring the movements of known criminals
Ans: Fleet management
Ans: MOT and Insurance evasion
Ans: Access control to restricted areas
etc etc etc
3) Given that no cars currently have the transponders, there is no legislation in place to require people to have the transponders
Ans: Transponder is buried in tamper proof number plates (front and rear) called ePlates. All plates will have to be ePlates, all new cars will come with them in 3 years, then all cars will have to have them to pass an MOT. So further 3 years before all vehicles have them. The plates cannot be removed without destroying the transponder - hence you loose you ID and the ANPR camera / ePlate receiver will pick your car out as being dubious making you a target.
4) and no mechanism to extract money from anyone via the transponders.
Ans: see above
Sorry, but its happening, I have seen the systems test, watched the video's and the police are currently learning about it on training courses. Even the £1.5billion to set it up is in place. The only thing stopping the green light is Tony Blair & co. - ID cards are nothing compared with this.
as it sounds? Ans: No, I wish it was
2) Why would anyone go to the huge expense of fitting tens of thousands of sensors everywhere?
Ans: £300 million per year in lost tax disc income
Ans: Road Tolls
Ans: Congestion charging
Ans: Monitoring the movements of known criminals
Ans: Fleet management
Ans: MOT and Insurance evasion
Ans: Access control to restricted areas
etc etc etc
3) Given that no cars currently have the transponders, there is no legislation in place to require people to have the transponders
Ans: Transponder is buried in tamper proof number plates (front and rear) called ePlates. All plates will have to be ePlates, all new cars will come with them in 3 years, then all cars will have to have them to pass an MOT. So further 3 years before all vehicles have them. The plates cannot be removed without destroying the transponder - hence you loose you ID and the ANPR camera / ePlate receiver will pick your car out as being dubious making you a target.
4) and no mechanism to extract money from anyone via the transponders.
Ans: see above
Sorry, but its happening, I have seen the systems test, watched the video's and the police are currently learning about it on training courses. Even the £1.5billion to set it up is in place. The only thing stopping the green light is Tony Blair & co. - ID cards are nothing compared with this.
Plus, the ANPR (Automatic Number Plate Recognition) cameras are there now you can see them on motorway bridges. The small cameras on a bar that poke out at you on bridges, one over each lane usually. The ones you used to think were speed cameras but they dont appear to be.
Well they are placed there by various authorities and monitor traffic via number plates. They are used for statistical analysis of traffic flow along our motorways. Working out where specific cars get on and off the major trunk roads.
The police have access to the database so they can check if "interesting" vehicles are in certain places or travel along certain roads at certain times etc.
The ePlates thing just uses off the shelf RF tagging technology that has been around for 10 years. Its a bit smaller/thinner and the tricky bit is battery life, but believe me its all sorted.
Well they are placed there by various authorities and monitor traffic via number plates. They are used for statistical analysis of traffic flow along our motorways. Working out where specific cars get on and off the major trunk roads.
The police have access to the database so they can check if "interesting" vehicles are in certain places or travel along certain roads at certain times etc.
The ePlates thing just uses off the shelf RF tagging technology that has been around for 10 years. Its a bit smaller/thinner and the tricky bit is battery life, but believe me its all sorted.
voiceofdoom said:
Stuff about developments that will sneak in under most people's radar, I suspect
If this is true (and sadly I'm jaded enough these days to believe it is), then the need to visually read a number plate would no longer exist (just put the sender somewhere else). Think how great many cars would look without these plates. I know it's an inpractical dream for so many reasons, but it would be nice to get something in return.
On a more sensible note, do you have any more details? Company names or technologies (RFID?) involved would be great, as I'd to inform myself.
Cheers.
voiceofdoom said:
but believe me its all sorted.
Show me some evidence and i'll belive you. Untill then i think it's a load of rubbish. Why would the authorities go to the trouble of spending so much money on a technically flawed system only to replace it with a GPS system a few years later? In any case, the DVLA database is so hugely inaccurate that any nationwide ANPR style system would crate more false hits than it would identify illegitimate vehicles.
Anyway, what has this got to do with the banning of laser jammers? All anpr does is dentify the vehicle and then check its status on the PNC.
dxg999 said:
If this is true (and sadly I'm jaded enough these days to believe it is), then the need to visually read a number plate would no longer exist
Because its buried inside the number plate, ie is part of it, it means you can also see if a vehicle has a transmitter. If you try to remove the plate you destroy it (and the tx) and have to get another one from official sources. Thats why a combination of a reader and ANPR camera can work out if a vehicle has a valid transmitter as it passes a point.
Sorry that this is off topic I came across this thread by accident, I'm just amazed that newspapers etc havn't latched onto this one. I have mentioned it to a few journo's and the system has been displayed at trade shows for traffic management and speed camera's etc. Its so far down the road it cant be THAT secret. The DoT have been planning it for the last 10 years (EVR - Electronic Vehicle Recognition).
I dont want to name names, but as it requires the replacement of all UK number plates work it out.
I'd be interested to know who's "behind" this lot....
www.e-plate.com
www.patent.gov.uk/tm/tmj/journals/6536/domestic/2326295.html
www.hillsnumberplates.com/dvla_cons.html
www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=123899
www.dvla.gov.uk/public/consult/ria-rnps.htm
>> Edited by cptsideways on Wednesday 8th June 10:05
www.e-plate.com
www.patent.gov.uk/tm/tmj/journals/6536/domestic/2326295.html
www.hillsnumberplates.com/dvla_cons.html
www.prnewswire.co.uk/cgi/news/release?id=123899
www.dvla.gov.uk/public/consult/ria-rnps.htm
>> Edited by cptsideways on Wednesday 8th June 10:05
GPS isnt suitable for many reasons including:
1) Licensing costs of receivers.
2) Satellite signals can be easily jammed (cover aerial).
3) They are inaccurate for road tolling / congestion charges. People will get billed for driving near the zone in question.
4) They need to be installed inside the vehicle, which increases costs and would involve all the car manufacturers which takes years to organise.
ePlates are cheap (<£15) and you just glue them on the outside of the car, easily identifiable visibly and the tranmsitter is on the outside of the car so no interference. All cars have plates fitted to them anyway so only extra cost would be MOT stations replacing normal plates on cars they test which would take 2mins...
Depressing isnt it.
The way I see it the only way to stop this is either a massive public reaction when it all becomes common knowledge or if we ALL remove the plates just after they are fitted. That will probably happen in France etc but we Brits always just shout about it and do nothing (like I'm doing now I guess) ... its sad.
1) Licensing costs of receivers.
2) Satellite signals can be easily jammed (cover aerial).
3) They are inaccurate for road tolling / congestion charges. People will get billed for driving near the zone in question.
4) They need to be installed inside the vehicle, which increases costs and would involve all the car manufacturers which takes years to organise.
ePlates are cheap (<£15) and you just glue them on the outside of the car, easily identifiable visibly and the tranmsitter is on the outside of the car so no interference. All cars have plates fitted to them anyway so only extra cost would be MOT stations replacing normal plates on cars they test which would take 2mins...
Depressing isnt it.
The way I see it the only way to stop this is either a massive public reaction when it all becomes common knowledge or if we ALL remove the plates just after they are fitted. That will probably happen in France etc but we Brits always just shout about it and do nothing (like I'm doing now I guess) ... its sad.
parrot of doom said:
DOT said:
Analysis of casualty statistics in Great Britain has shown excessive speed to be a contributory factor in 28% of all collisions that result in a fatality.
I don't ferkin' believe it! The old 1/3 lie gets trotted out once again
Don't you know, speed is a contributory factor in all accidents! Just drive at 0mph and you're perfectly safe - unless a pedestrian trips over your bonnet, in which case its jailtime for you!
I hope the fella concered pleads not guilty - there is nothing yet illegal about having a laser diffuser on your car, and the 'perverting cause of justice' case is as yet, unproven.
Not entirley correct there, as there have been a number of prosecutions since the end of 2004 where these devices have been used.
As mentioned in the post, the details of the car are logged on the PNC database when the laser gun throws up an error code, if it happens a second time it's cross checked for the previous occurence and off to court!
Is it then illegal for a "pedestrian" to walk along with a radio transmitter or "noise" generator and just jam any signals to and from the ANPR/detector device.
Can imagine a whole motorway of cars flying along and the ANPR not getting the RFID signal back and flagging about 10,000 cars as suspect.
Still a totally flawed system that is and will be open to abuse. An individual jammping the signal will be "singled out" as the ANPR doesn't get the RFID, but even then, who could tell is was YOU jamming it. Having a hand-help or non-attached jammer (ie, mobile phone sized thing plugged into cig lighter), and remove it.
Also, it's not illegal to own a radio transmitter. Look how often them shop things go off when people are not actually stealing things!
All I can see is more vigilante attacks and jammers and all that used here.
Also, as said, the DVLA have nothing like a 100% reliable database or system for managing the data, so it'll all just go tits up.
Again, here to stop crime and manage things, but will actually do little to stop real criminals. OK, you get flagged if your RFID doesn't match or work when an ANPR see's you. How long till a traffic plod actually bothers to pull you? Criminals will be two weeks away by the time anyone bothers you about your "dodgy" plate
Great idea, just won't work. Computers and technology are so crap compared to good ol' coppers eyes and ears!
Dave
Can imagine a whole motorway of cars flying along and the ANPR not getting the RFID signal back and flagging about 10,000 cars as suspect.
Still a totally flawed system that is and will be open to abuse. An individual jammping the signal will be "singled out" as the ANPR doesn't get the RFID, but even then, who could tell is was YOU jamming it. Having a hand-help or non-attached jammer (ie, mobile phone sized thing plugged into cig lighter), and remove it.
Also, it's not illegal to own a radio transmitter. Look how often them shop things go off when people are not actually stealing things!
All I can see is more vigilante attacks and jammers and all that used here.
Also, as said, the DVLA have nothing like a 100% reliable database or system for managing the data, so it'll all just go tits up.
Again, here to stop crime and manage things, but will actually do little to stop real criminals. OK, you get flagged if your RFID doesn't match or work when an ANPR see's you. How long till a traffic plod actually bothers to pull you? Criminals will be two weeks away by the time anyone bothers you about your "dodgy" plate
Great idea, just won't work. Computers and technology are so crap compared to good ol' coppers eyes and ears!
Dave
I have heard about RFID in numberplates mentioned before so don't find it too difficult to believe. But, it just means that people buying fake plates will be buying them with fake RFIDs in them too. It's a fairly well known technology so won't be difficult for people to get around.
There are also still *huge* privacy issues being discussed with RFID even for things like groceries or clothes and the like. I for one will be quite happy to completely ignore this with my old/kit cars and spend a couple of years taking the gits to the ECHR if necessary.
There are also still *huge* privacy issues being discussed with RFID even for things like groceries or clothes and the like. I for one will be quite happy to completely ignore this with my old/kit cars and spend a couple of years taking the gits to the ECHR if necessary.
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