How good are you really?
Discussion
gh0st said:
I have to regardless as I have to stop at the end of the road pulling out of the cul-de-sac. Its not a full on test but it utilises the brakes. I also change out my fluid once every 2 years. or 50k miles
Surely the point is to test them *before* you need them, if you reached the junction before finding out that your brake fluid had disappeared overnight, wouldn't that be a little embarassing?
lieber gone said:
safespeed said:
lieber gone said:
Just a few questions to provoke some inner examination.
Forget all that. They were mostly 'attitude and responsibility proxies' anyway. Instead ask your self these questions:
* When did you last get a nasty surprise? (for example, a vehicle or pedestrian movement you weren't expecting)
* When did you last have to take emergency action to avoid a crash or an incident? (for example: emergency braking or swerving)
* If surprises of any sort of frequent, you have a problem that needs addressing.
Fortunately surprises outnumber incidents by about 10:1 - incidents outnumber crashes by about 10:1 and crashes outnumber injour crashes by about 10:1. So if you can effectively learn from 'surprises' you have a fighting chance of keeping well out of trouble.
Lets just hope your wheel falling off is not the nasty surprise
Ist all COAST Liebchen
COAST mean you are prepared for "unexpected" und "suddenly und from nowhere" do not occur - but if they ever should do - you make sure you analyse und learn. I could not really learn much from the incident as was a freak. Only thing ist I will be in L1 in jam und if see hazard ist break law to avoid by driving up out opf harm way in hard shoulder as NO WAY could I live it again.
You have to be very careful mit Moggie Liebchen
If you fix the nuts the worng way the wheel fall of 
an not talking of Mad Moggie 
Am talking of the car! But modern car istnot built like Moggie [samll] und they broke mold when they may my mad version lieber gone said:
Being a complete driver is not just about propelling a vehicle from point A to point B without hitting anything due to nasty surprises.
>> Edited by gone on Monday 8th August 17:59
My Papa told me from earliest age that driving ist privilege und not a right. I had to prove to him that I was worthy of his kindness in paying for my driving lesson und insuring his car und a runabout for me to drive by showing had raod sense before I was old enough to drive und by proving I undersstood speed by observing und discussing his driving on road und rally und track mit ihm. We had a test on car mecanics as part of the L test - but Papa made me take a car to bits und put it back together again und timed me
. He then proved he trusted my work on this by driving this car in a car rally 
und I would have been really "for it" had he come last or it broke down or something >> Edited by WildCat on Monday 8th August 23:16
Had senior moment mit the quotey thingies...
>> Edited by WildCat on Monday 8th August 23:19
I also like to check that all wheel nuts are still there when returning to my car! You never know who may have taken a fancy to them and had a go.
Presumably all those who check their lights before each journey also carry spare bulbs?
I think most of us here look after our cars, but on the whole I would guess the majority of MOP wouldn't check much at all.
Brakes and tyres are a big deal with me, I always have top quality there, and my car gets checked on a four poster every week. Lucky to have a mate in the trade
Having said all that, I still have the same chance of being punished with penalty points via a sneaky scamera van as Joe or Fred who dont care and drive with four bald tyres and non existent brake pads.
That doesn't seem quite fair to me, but that's the system we have.
Presumably all those who check their lights before each journey also carry spare bulbs?
I think most of us here look after our cars, but on the whole I would guess the majority of MOP wouldn't check much at all.
Brakes and tyres are a big deal with me, I always have top quality there, and my car gets checked on a four poster every week. Lucky to have a mate in the trade
Having said all that, I still have the same chance of being punished with penalty points via a sneaky scamera van as Joe or Fred who dont care and drive with four bald tyres and non existent brake pads.
That doesn't seem quite fair to me, but that's the system we have.
Quinny said:
How can checking your tyres, and walking around your car to check that lights etc work make you a better driver?
Ok it may prevent an accident due to mechanical failure, but it dosen't make you any better or worse than someone who never checks these things.
Its about attitude
Do you care about your machine?
Do you care about the image you present to others, espescially if you draw attention to yourself by an unfortunate mistake?
Its basically about pride in the job
Seen the advert on telly about the chap with the tax applied for note in the window?
If you know everything works properly then you can afford to make progress safely without a worry!
>> Edited by gone on Tuesday 9th August 00:58
1, Just a cursory glance around the car before I get in.
2, Generally check tyres every 1-2 weeks, and check lights/brake lights every time I am opposite a reflective surface.
3, Just at the end of the (short) road where I have to brake.
4, Company car so has to be installed with bluetooth. Hate it. Try to avoid calls where possible but sometimes do use it.
5, Yes, wet, ice, wind etc. try and take account for it.
6, Heart yes, head probably no. Been in IAM for 10 years but feel I have lapsed a fair bit and need a re-test.
7, Try to drive defencably (sic) but who knows??
8,, No, other than dialing 999 (to my shame)
9, Bi-anually as requested (last done last month - no change)
10, Little from (a) and a little from (b) hard to say really but I try to plan things in advance.
8,
2, Generally check tyres every 1-2 weeks, and check lights/brake lights every time I am opposite a reflective surface.
3, Just at the end of the (short) road where I have to brake.
4, Company car so has to be installed with bluetooth. Hate it. Try to avoid calls where possible but sometimes do use it.
5, Yes, wet, ice, wind etc. try and take account for it.
6, Heart yes, head probably no. Been in IAM for 10 years but feel I have lapsed a fair bit and need a re-test.
7, Try to drive defencably (sic) but who knows??
8,, No, other than dialing 999 (to my shame)
9, Bi-anually as requested (last done last month - no change)
10, Little from (a) and a little from (b) hard to say really but I try to plan things in advance.
8,
This thread indicates a lot that's wrong with driver quality development.
The fundamental problem is that the real skills and attitudes required to be a truly successful driver are subtle and hard to define. Because of that difficulty we have ended up with a series of proxies - things we're supposed to do that encourage or stimulate the right skills and attitudes.
Pull-push steering falls into this category. It's a good steering technique, but the real benefit doesn't arise because of the driver-wheel interface. The real benefit arises because it's a slow steering technique. Using it forces you to plan a valuable few tenths of a second further ahead.
Quite a few of the things in Gone's original question list fall into a similar category - we're being asked to show that we have the right attitude. But the right attitude isn't readily expressed in identifiable behaviours - it's more about priorities and risk management. In the real world priorities change constantly with the hazard environment, and a good driver manages a potential risk at an early stage (so much so that the risk doesn't really get a chance to materialise).
Here's my list of ten qualities that good drivers live by:
1) Nothing is more important than completing your journey in one piece.
2) Always ensure that you have time to react. This means setting a safe speed according to the conditions.
3) Make maximum use of available space - stay as far away from risks as possible - in all four directions (ahead, behind, to the left and to the right).
4) When it goes wrong, learn from it. You don't want to repeat mistakes.
5) Look and plan as far ahead as you can. Observe and anticipate the actions of others - including those behind you.
6) Co-operate with other road users with courtesy and consideration.
7) Make sure that you and your vehicle are fit for the journey.
8) Concentrate at all times. Guard against inattention.
9) Learn to stay calm. Don't get annoyed with other road users.
10) Be predictable. Give signals not surprises!
The fundamental problem is that the real skills and attitudes required to be a truly successful driver are subtle and hard to define. Because of that difficulty we have ended up with a series of proxies - things we're supposed to do that encourage or stimulate the right skills and attitudes.
Pull-push steering falls into this category. It's a good steering technique, but the real benefit doesn't arise because of the driver-wheel interface. The real benefit arises because it's a slow steering technique. Using it forces you to plan a valuable few tenths of a second further ahead.
Quite a few of the things in Gone's original question list fall into a similar category - we're being asked to show that we have the right attitude. But the right attitude isn't readily expressed in identifiable behaviours - it's more about priorities and risk management. In the real world priorities change constantly with the hazard environment, and a good driver manages a potential risk at an early stage (so much so that the risk doesn't really get a chance to materialise).
Here's my list of ten qualities that good drivers live by:
1) Nothing is more important than completing your journey in one piece.
2) Always ensure that you have time to react. This means setting a safe speed according to the conditions.
3) Make maximum use of available space - stay as far away from risks as possible - in all four directions (ahead, behind, to the left and to the right).
4) When it goes wrong, learn from it. You don't want to repeat mistakes.
5) Look and plan as far ahead as you can. Observe and anticipate the actions of others - including those behind you.
6) Co-operate with other road users with courtesy and consideration.
7) Make sure that you and your vehicle are fit for the journey.
8) Concentrate at all times. Guard against inattention.
9) Learn to stay calm. Don't get annoyed with other road users.
10) Be predictable. Give signals not surprises!
safespeed said:
3) Make maximum use of available space - stay as far away from risks as possible - in all four directions (ahead, behind, to the left and to the right).
One of the most important ways of avoiding accidents on M/ways and Dual carriageways, sadly eroded by rigid speed limit enforcement.
Let's avoid crashing in the first place, eh? Seems an alien concept to the 'stick a low limit on it' brigade!
gone said:
1. How many drivers check their vehicle every day for defects before they drive them?
I do - but through automatic systems
2. Do you walk around your vehilce and check for tyre wear/indicators and lights working?
No - the car tells me if a light has failed and the tyre pressures are continually monitored. Tyres get checked every week for wear
3.Do you do a safety check of the braking system before you start and over the first few rolling feet of your journey to see if your brakes are functioning correctly?
Yes
4. Do you resist the temptation of using communication equipment whilst in motion if it is not fixed to the vehicle.
Yes
5. Do you take account of the relevant weather conditions when you jump in and turn the key?
I like to think so
6. Do you know how to read the road properly?
Plan on doing IAM - but I hope so - not prefect though
7. Can you cope with an emergency in dangerous circumstances by reducing the risks to yourself and to others.
Bit vague - but in principle - yes
8. Are you able or confident to assist others who may be hurt as a result of a mistake they or someone else has made?
Never come up - it would depend
9. When did you last have your eyesight checked?
< 6 months ago - had laser surgery to correct short sight in one eye
10. Do you drive on reactions or plans?
err - probably both
Just a few questions to provoke some inner examination.
Must be a morning for musing.
SS post gave me an imgage of SS as bloke with long hair and beard striding down the mountain with his tablet inscribed with the ten driving rules like Moses before him with his ten commandments outlining how we could all live in harmony.
What happened to those ten commandments???????
DVD
(Doubting Thomas by the way)
SS post gave me an imgage of SS as bloke with long hair and beard striding down the mountain with his tablet inscribed with the ten driving rules like Moses before him with his ten commandments outlining how we could all live in harmony.
What happened to those ten commandments???????
DVD
(Doubting Thomas by the way)
GreenV8S said:
I have to regardless as I have to stop at the end of the road pulling out of the cul-de-sac. Its not a full on test but it utilises the brakes. I also change out my fluid once every 2 years. or 50k miles
Surely the point is to test them *before* you need them, if you reached the junction before finding out that your brake fluid had disappeared overnight, wouldn't that be a little embarassing?
Junction is off a side road off a side road off a side road. Worst that would happen is that I would hit a wall at the other side of the road at about 10mph.
gone said:
1. How many drivers check their vehicle every day for defects before they drive them?
Afraid not. I clean the car every week and check the oil/water/brake fluid though - so perhaps a check every 250 miles.
2. Do you walk around your vehilce and check for tyre wear/indicators and lights working?
When I clean it I check the tyres (pressure). New tyres so wear is irrelevant at the moment, but it does get checked. Lights are checked with the ignition automatically.
3.Do you do a safety check of the braking system before you start and over the first few rolling feet of your journey to see if your brakes are functioning correctly?
Yes - but only because I have to manouver to get out of my drive.
4. Do you resist the temptation of using communication equipment whilst in motion if it is not fixed to the vehicle.
Yes - have a car phone.
5. Do you take account of the relevant weather conditions when you jump in and turn the key?
Yes - used to have an Elise so used to driving to the conditions.
6. Do you know how to read the road properly?
Yes, I think so.
7. Can you cope with an emergency in dangerous circumstances by reducing the risks to yourself and to others.
I'd hope so, although I am aware that I could do with going on some kind of first aid course.
8. Are you able or confident to assist others who may be hurt as a result of a mistake they or someone else has made?
See first aid course above - although I'd certainly try my best and think I know the (very) basics. Car has a comprehensive (I filled it myself) first aid kit.
9. When did you last have your eyesight checked?
8 years ago? (I'm 28)
10. Do you drive on reactions or plans?
Not too sure what you mean? I think I have good reations to certain situations (oversteer etc), and dont panic (until afterwards
Just a few questions to provoke some inner examination.
Good, thought provoking stuff here.
My answers are broadly yes.
I don't check lights etc daily (more weekly), but then I don't do that many miles. The brakes are tested purely due to the place I live, that's something I should do deliberately.
I haven't done any formal advanced driving, but I've read alot and think about what goes on.
I have a first aid qualification and have helped at a couple of accidents recently.
Plans or reactions: plans definitely, I can't remember the last time I was surprised in a car. Even yesterday when some idiot turned right straight across in front of me from the left lane of a roundabout.
I know I could do better, but I think that realising that is half the battle. If more people were aware of their inadequacies the roads would be a safer place.
My answers are broadly yes.
I don't check lights etc daily (more weekly), but then I don't do that many miles. The brakes are tested purely due to the place I live, that's something I should do deliberately.
I haven't done any formal advanced driving, but I've read alot and think about what goes on.
I have a first aid qualification and have helped at a couple of accidents recently.
Plans or reactions: plans definitely, I can't remember the last time I was surprised in a car. Even yesterday when some idiot turned right straight across in front of me from the left lane of a roundabout.
I know I could do better, but I think that realising that is half the battle. If more people were aware of their inadequacies the roads would be a safer place.
1. How many drivers check their vehicle every day for defects before they drive them?
Look around daily - I live in scroteville & anything could and does happen to parked cars
2. Do you walk around your vehilce and check for tyre wear/indicators and lights working?
Once a week when washing car. Plenty of other checks too
3.Do you do a safety check of the braking system before you start and over the first few rolling feet of your journey to see if your brakes are functioning correctly?
Parked on a steep drive so yes. Will also do if parked on flat.
4. Do you resist the temptation of using communication equipment whilst in motion if it is not fixed to the vehicle.
Yep, only takes a few seconds to fix into holder
5. Do you take account of the relevant weather conditions when you jump in and turn the key?
Yes
6. Do you know how to read the road properly?
Still learning, have gone out on couple of times with serving trafpol mate who has been giving advice.
7. Can you cope with an emergency in dangerous circumstances by reducing the risks to yourself and to others.
Not been in that situation yet but would hope common sense would prevail
8. Are you able or confident to assist others who may be hurt as a result of a mistake they or someone else has made?
Done red cross first aid training & have valid certificate. Better than nothing. Have basic kit in car.
9. When did you last have your eyesight checked?
about 9 months ago. Get it checked every year.
10. Do you drive on reactions or plans?
Both - plan ahead + react accordingly/alter plan as situations unfurl. Still learning.
Look around daily - I live in scroteville & anything could and does happen to parked cars
2. Do you walk around your vehilce and check for tyre wear/indicators and lights working?
Once a week when washing car. Plenty of other checks too
3.Do you do a safety check of the braking system before you start and over the first few rolling feet of your journey to see if your brakes are functioning correctly?
Parked on a steep drive so yes. Will also do if parked on flat.
4. Do you resist the temptation of using communication equipment whilst in motion if it is not fixed to the vehicle.
Yep, only takes a few seconds to fix into holder
5. Do you take account of the relevant weather conditions when you jump in and turn the key?
Yes
6. Do you know how to read the road properly?
Still learning, have gone out on couple of times with serving trafpol mate who has been giving advice.
7. Can you cope with an emergency in dangerous circumstances by reducing the risks to yourself and to others.
Not been in that situation yet but would hope common sense would prevail
8. Are you able or confident to assist others who may be hurt as a result of a mistake they or someone else has made?
Done red cross first aid training & have valid certificate. Better than nothing. Have basic kit in car.
9. When did you last have your eyesight checked?
about 9 months ago. Get it checked every year.
10. Do you drive on reactions or plans?
Both - plan ahead + react accordingly/alter plan as situations unfurl. Still learning.
mechsympathy said:
...I haven't done any formal advanced driving, but I've read alot and think about what goes on.
...
I've not had formal training, either. Just driven a very high mileage for the majority of my driving life, mainly with work, more latterly for pleasure. Soon to start a new job with more travelling
. Nothing has happened to surprise me out there for many years, however I'm not big-headed or complacent about how 'good' a driver I am and still learn things when I'm out there. If anything I'm very critical of myself.
OK here goes.
1. How many drivers check their vehicle every day for defects before they drive them?
A- Yes daily/every trip as appropriate.
2. Do you walk around your vehicle and check for tyre wear/indicators and lights working?
A- Yes daily/every trip as appropriate. By that I mean daily as a minimum. Then when starting a journey in the dark or where it is likely to become dark/inclement weather then a further light check.
3.Do you do a safety check of the braking system before you start and over the first few rolling feet of your journey to see if your brakes are functioning correctly?
A- Yes daily/every trip as appropriate, both static, detect build up of assistance from pedal feel when engine started, and that handbrake/brake warning light goes out when parking brake released. Also moving brake check when underway and that vehicle rolls freely after test.
4. Do you resist the temptation of using communication equipment whilst in motion if it is not fixed to the vehicle.
A- Yes full hands free mode plumbed in, auto answer. Most times I touch phone is to reject a call. (I know I know I should turn auto answer off, will think about that)
5. Do you take account of the relevant weather conditions when you jump in and turn the key?
A- Err see answers 1 and onwards, jump in and turn key, what's that? After full cockpit drill then of course. Also must consider micro-climate issues along the journey.
6. Do you know how to read the road properly?
A- Definitely try, not just the road but observation links all around. Still learning, and the day I stop doing that is the day my licence goes back to Swansea.
7. Can you cope with an emergency in dangerous circumstances by reducing the risks to yourself and to others.
A- Yes and system proven to work, vehicles repair, people less easily.
8. Are you able or confident to assist others who may be hurt as a result of a mistake they or someone else has made?
A- Know enough to know when to leave well alone and enough to do the ABC checks and act accordingly.
9. When did you last have your eyesight checked?
Every 6 months. Job related.
10. Do you drive on reactions or plans?
Plan Plan Plan to deal with other folks reactions. Three Ss Surprise, Space, Speed. Keep those in order.
Just a few questions to provoke some inner examination.
A- and some good ones imho.
And in answer to whoever:- If that makes me an old gimper then so be it.
FiF
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Tuesday 9th August 11:21
1. How many drivers check their vehicle every day for defects before they drive them?
A- Yes daily/every trip as appropriate.
2. Do you walk around your vehicle and check for tyre wear/indicators and lights working?
A- Yes daily/every trip as appropriate. By that I mean daily as a minimum. Then when starting a journey in the dark or where it is likely to become dark/inclement weather then a further light check.
3.Do you do a safety check of the braking system before you start and over the first few rolling feet of your journey to see if your brakes are functioning correctly?
A- Yes daily/every trip as appropriate, both static, detect build up of assistance from pedal feel when engine started, and that handbrake/brake warning light goes out when parking brake released. Also moving brake check when underway and that vehicle rolls freely after test.
4. Do you resist the temptation of using communication equipment whilst in motion if it is not fixed to the vehicle.
A- Yes full hands free mode plumbed in, auto answer. Most times I touch phone is to reject a call. (I know I know I should turn auto answer off, will think about that)
5. Do you take account of the relevant weather conditions when you jump in and turn the key?
A- Err see answers 1 and onwards, jump in and turn key, what's that? After full cockpit drill then of course. Also must consider micro-climate issues along the journey.
6. Do you know how to read the road properly?
A- Definitely try, not just the road but observation links all around. Still learning, and the day I stop doing that is the day my licence goes back to Swansea.
7. Can you cope with an emergency in dangerous circumstances by reducing the risks to yourself and to others.
A- Yes and system proven to work, vehicles repair, people less easily.
8. Are you able or confident to assist others who may be hurt as a result of a mistake they or someone else has made?
A- Know enough to know when to leave well alone and enough to do the ABC checks and act accordingly.
9. When did you last have your eyesight checked?
Every 6 months. Job related.
10. Do you drive on reactions or plans?
Plan Plan Plan to deal with other folks reactions. Three Ss Surprise, Space, Speed. Keep those in order.
Just a few questions to provoke some inner examination.
A- and some good ones imho.
And in answer to whoever:- If that makes me an old gimper then so be it.
FiF
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Tuesday 9th August 11:21
Reads post of FiF above.
Sits back
Reads again
Aghast. Lines of amazement appears on face.
Genefluxs - for we have a Saint in our presence.
Joking apart, I know the man and the miles he has to travel in his vocation and he is very wise to take those safety precautions.
Forum Commendation FiF.
DVD
(Didtah git opp North and hev a beffy of Theakstons?) Smith/)
Sits back
Reads again
Aghast. Lines of amazement appears on face.
Genefluxs - for we have a Saint in our presence.
Joking apart, I know the man and the miles he has to travel in his vocation and he is very wise to take those safety precautions.
Forum Commendation FiF.
DVD
(Didtah git opp North and hev a beffy of Theakstons?) Smith/)
"YEP" lieber gone said:
Quinny said:
How can checking your tyres, and walking around your car to check that lights etc work make you a better driver?
Ok it may prevent an accident due to mechanical failure, but it dosen't make you any better or worse than someone who never checks these things.
Its about attitude
Do you care about your machine?
Wir sind uns einig But ist also for some thought of repair bill
Ist expensive to have a dent mit the punitive balout costs - und after house - ist next major purchase (apart from 
k-k-kitten costs! - Ist expensive having so many... ist not to be recommended und they demand - bit they do not usually get1 Mad Doc ist a cheapskate really. But ja - back to topic mein liebstes Liebchen - ist about pride in having nice clean und tidy car. Serious driver do not have clutter to roll around und be missiles in case of emergency either. ist same mit bikes - we keep them nice und tidy too. Und likewise house. Ist in Ordnung!
lieber gone said:
Do you care about the image you present to others, espescially if you draw attention to yourself by an unfortunate mistake?
Ist part of your presentation. I heard of employer (headteacher of school)who look at car. ist not make - ist tidiness of inside und outside he look at. But ja - if like anything else. If you take untidy dirty car to garage - they think you do not care und do naff job as think you will not notice. If you have man to do job in home - if not tidy und straightish - he think you are not particular und you get cownboy job for cowboy person. Ja - ist what you mean und wir sind uns eining
(Ist a change 
) Its basically about pride in the job
lieber gone said:
If you know everything works properly then you can afford to make progress safely without a worry!
>> Edited by gone on Tuesday 9th August 00:58
I would never get into car which I thought was not safe. I can usually "feel" the engine und handling within first two seconds ... und ja... ist even the oil
I will tell you this anecdote -- Mad Doc ist still amazed at me. he was also a little bemused.
I picked up my car from garage after service. had purchased the brand oil I prefer und placed in car und gave specific instruction. Had also identified spark lead needed a replace too und daubed mit red mail polish (I always place nail polish on bit requiring replace
ist not nice if they do not do as I say... und they learn to jump ist the look ../ ist effective! Mad Doc say ist a wimmim thing! Ist the " to hot buttereed crumpet" look ) Anyway picked up car - did not "feel right" und returned two second after leaving forecourt. Mad Doc was gaping - literally - as I demanded to see the empty can of oil they placed in engine. They provided empty can - but it was not the oil I had demanded. I asked to see the empty can of oil I chose und they found they had not actually used it but it "ended up in boot of mechanic
:angry: 
Und I made them do oil change after closing time und watched mit arms folded und steeliest look on face. Mechanic in question got his cards und we changed garages after that. I would never trust. But how did I know? Car did not feel "right".
A good und "natural" driver "feels" the engine. "Feels" the handling und ist something I cannot explain.... but ist me. Und am same mit the bikes - motor und pedal. >> Edited by WildCat on Tuesday 9th August 19:14
>> Edited by WildCat on Tuesday 9th August 19:18
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