Lorries

[streaky]

It is interesting to note that in January 2002, in a submission to the Transport, Local Government and The Regions Committee Inquiry - Road Traffic Speed, the Road Haulage Association, said:

Speed
It is difficult to assess precisely how many accidents are directly caused by speeding. However, it is common sense that excessive or inappropriate speed will increase considerably the risk of being involved in a serious accident. As with all other classes of vehicle, statistics demonstrate that there is an element of non-compliance with speed limits amongst HGV drivers. The RHA does not condone any kind of illegal operation including the breaking of speed limits. However, we believe that the current speed regulations for commercial vehicles may actually be contributing to the problem and possibly introducing an increased risk of accident.

Speed limits for goods vehicles vary quite considerably from those that apply to cars as follows:

[table of limits deleted]

In addition, goods vehicles over 7.5 tonnes are required to be fitted with speed limiters which are set to permit maximum speeds of 60mph for vehicles between 7.5 and 12 tonnes, and 56mph for vehicles over 12 tonnes.

The speed limits detailed above have been in force without revision for many years now. However, vehicle technology has advanced considerably in this same period. Anti-lock breaking systems (ABS) have been compulsory on new commercial vehicles since the early 1990s - as a result a large proportion of the current fleet would be fitted with them. Despite this, on a single carriageway road attracting a national speed limit of 60mph, HGVs are required to travel at or below 40mph. Not only does this seem inappropriate to many drivers (which inevitably means more people are tempted to break the law) but we believe it may actually be causing more accidents as other vehicles (whose drivers are not aware of the limits for HGVs) take unnecessary risks in an attempt to overtake what they consider to be excessively slow-moving vehicles.

As such, the RHA believes that the time has now come for the Government to undertake a fundamental review of commercial vehicle speed limits taking into account both the new technology that is now available and current road conditions etc. In particular, we would like to see the current limit of 40mph for single carriageway roads increased to 50mph.

We are also concerned at the increasing tendency for highway authorities to reduce speed limits on main roads seemingly without any real justification. A prime example is the A556 between the M6 and the M56. This particular road is a dual carriageway at the beginning and end and in the middle it is a 4 lane (2 in each direction) A road signposted as 50mph. This means that commercial vehicles must comply with a 40mph limit. Many drivers have been found to be speeding on this section of the road as they keep pace with the general traffic flow not realising that the road is an A road rather than a dual carriageway. The RHA believes stringent criteria must be applied when highway authorities seek to make changes to speed limits. In addition, signing must be clear for all road users to avoid drivers being caught as a result of confusion rather than illegal activity. The key point is that speed limits must be, and must be seen to be, appropriate to the particular road conditions.

[streaky]

timtonal said:

Accidents on motorways involving lorries often provide Scamera partnerships with 'reason' to put mobile talivans on motorways. They are restricted to 4mph BELOW the speed limit. Go figure..!?!!

Actually, it's 14 mph below the motorway limit ... and only for goods vehicles over 12 tonnes. Between 7.5 and 12 tonnes the restrictor limits top speed to 10mph below - Streaky

[towman]

streaky said:

We are also concerned at the increasing tendency for highway authorities to reduce speed limits on main roads seemingly without any real justification. A prime example is the A556 between the M6 and the M56. This particular road is a dual carriageway at the beginning and end and in the middle it is a 4 lane (2 in each direction) A road signposted as 50mph. This means that commercial vehicles must comply with a 40mph limit. Many drivers have been found to be speeding on this section of the road as they keep pace with the general traffic flow not realising that the road is an A road rather than a dual carriageway. The RHA believes stringent criteria must be applied when highway authorities seek to make changes to speed limits. In addition, signing must be clear for all road users to avoid drivers being caught as a result of confusion rather than illegal activity. The key point is that speed limits must be, and must be seen to be, appropriate to the particular road conditions.

I have to confess my ignorance on this one. So a 50mph dual carriaeway is automatically limited to 40mph for heavies?

[philthy]

towman said:

streaky said: We are also concerned at the increasing tendency for highway authorities to reduce speed limits on main roads seemingly without any real justification. A prime example is the A556 between the M6 and the M56. This particular road is a dual carriageway at the beginning and end and in the middle it is a 4 lane (2 in each direction) A road signposted as 50mph. This means that commercial vehicles must comply with a 40mph limit. Many drivers have been found to be speeding on this section of the road as they keep pace with the general traffic flow not realising that the road is an A road rather than a dual carriageway. The RHA believes stringent criteria must be applied when highway authorities seek to make changes to speed limits. In addition, signing must be clear for all road users to avoid drivers being caught as a result of confusion rather than illegal activity. The key point is that speed limits must be, and must be seen to be, appropriate to the particular road conditions. I have to confess my ignorance on this one. So a 50mph dual carriaeway is automatically limited to 40mph for heavies?

Yeah? Me as well.

Phil

[nickwilcock]

"It's the left-hand drive lorries from the continent doing overtake manouvers you need to watch out for."

Quite so. In addition to which, they've probably travelled for several hundred miles since they last had a decent rest...

I was travelling along a 3-lane motorway a couple of weeks ago at 70 mph in the centre lane. As I was just about to pass a huge East European truck, it pulled out to start its elephant race, clearly having no idea I was there. Fortunately I have excellent brakes and Lane 3 was empty.

People need to be VERY AWARE of the hazards posed by LHD HGVs. Perhaps they should be required by law to display "WARNING - LEFT HAND DRIVE" signs when being driven in the UK?

Most HGV drivers are indeed competent professionals. But there are still far, far too many who drive too close to the vehicle in front. A recent fatal accident with something like 5 or more HGVs embedded in the back of eachother on the A34 proved just how true this is

[711]

towman said:

711 said: If all us dumb as f**k, not fit for the face of your earth, car drivers could do something to make your life easier (and taking the train is not an option, sorry ) what would it be? Come on, we're all Without taking the unnecessarily aggressive attitude of the previous poster, here`s a few....

Thanks for the tips towman. It wasn't meant to be aggressive. Perhaps the bit that should have been quoted alongside was this bit from falcemob:

falcemob said:

...having to put up with all you arsehole car drivers on road. I could give a list of your faults but life is too short.

The point I was trying to make, badly it appears , is that car drivers were all being tarred with the same brush! I thought that if falcemob and our other trucker friends gave some tips, it might actually reduce the level of arsehole behaviour that truckers have to put up with.

Pulling in front at traffic lights sounds like a good example of a behaviour that is easy to correct with just a tiny amount more awareness of a truck drivers problems / priorities.

[MR2Mike]

streaky said:

Actually, it's 14 mph below the motorway limit ... and only for goods vehicles over 12 tonnes. Between 7.5 and 12 tonnes the restrictor limits top speed to 10mph below - Streaky

As the Motorway speed limit for HGV's is 60mph, I make 60-56 = 4mph

[tvradict]

nickwilcock said:

"It's the left-hand drive lorries from the continent doing overtake manouvers you need to watch out for." Quite so. In addition to which, they've probably travelled for several hundred miles since they last had a decent rest... I was travelling along a 3-lane motorway a couple of weeks ago at 70 mph in the centre lane. As I was just about to pass a huge East European truck, it pulled out to start its elephant race, clearly having no idea I was there. Fortunately I have excellent brakes and Lane 3 was empty. People need to be VERY AWARE of the hazards posed by LHD HGVs. Perhaps they should be required by law to display "WARNING - LEFT HAND DRIVE" signs when being driven in the UK? Most HGV drivers are indeed competent professionals. But there are still far, far too many who drive too close to the vehicle in front. A recent fatal accident with something like 5 or more HGVs embedded in the back of eachother on the A34 proved just how true this is

I regularly drive a Road Sweeper, its LHD, but its isn't exactly massive. On the back is a Sign Which says Caution Left Hand Drive.

There is a blindspot on all Heavies near the back, but is even more prominent on LHD than RHD. The is the obvious one, right behind, but there is another, off to the side, and it amazes me the number of drivers who sit in this blind spot!

[Balmoral Green]

towman said:

Seesure said: My worst experience of elephant racing was 11 miles behind two trucks up the A42 from Birmingham up to Nottingham. Neither had the brain power to look in their mirrors to see what mayhem was behind... I`ve answered this one before, but can`t be arsed with the maths this time. 11 miles @ 56mph = about 11.5 minutes 11 miles @ 70mph = about 10 minutes What did you intend to do with the whole 1.5 minutes you lost?

I think that kind of indifference demonstrates the point entirely. 1.5 minutes isnt very long, granted, but 11 miles

Road rage doesnt just happen, it is caused, and those who cause it are just as bad, if not worse, than those who succumb.

[Seesure]

Balmoral Green said:

I think that kind of indifference demonstrates the point entirely. 1.5 minutes isnt very long, granted, but 11 miles

I accept this instance was rare however the point being that it might have been 1.5 minutes delay for me but you need to include in the figures the delay to the other 300+ motorists waiting to get by. Also what tends to happen is that as traffic joins the outside lane waiting to pass many lorries stay in the inside lane gently undertaking and then pulling out once they get to the front of the queue and compounding the issue as they then take turns (eventually to overtake).

[UpTheIron]

towman said:

streaky said: We are also concerned at the increasing tendency for highway authorities to reduce speed limits on main roads seemingly without any real justification. A prime example is the A556 between the M6 and the M56. This particular road is a dual carriageway at the beginning and end and in the middle it is a 4 lane (2 in each direction) A road signposted as 50mph. This means that commercial vehicles must comply with a 40mph limit. Many drivers have been found to be speeding on this section of the road as they keep pace with the general traffic flow not realising that the road is an A road rather than a dual carriageway. The RHA believes stringent criteria must be applied when highway authorities seek to make changes to speed limits. In addition, signing must be clear for all road users to avoid drivers being caught as a result of confusion rather than illegal activity. The key point is that speed limits must be, and must be seen to be, appropriate to the particular road conditions. I have to confess my ignorance on this one. So a 50mph dual carriaeway is automatically limited to 40mph for heavies?

The road is not a dual carraigeway...just 2 lanes of traffic in each direction on a single carraigeway.

[heebeegeetee]

Hi All,

Excuse long post. I’ve been missing a good debate here, it seems. Why ever is it in the speeding, plod & law section? I never come here, its always full of people going “woe is me I’ve been caught at one hundred and umpty miles an hour whatever can I do about it life’s so unfair” etc

Anyway, as a lorry owner driver I’m going to have my twopennurth. I’m not getting involved in name calling, and I’m not flaming or anything like that. Some people aren’t going to like what I say, but I say it in all openness and honesty. I would also say that primarily I’m very much a car enthusiast. I enjoy driving very much, although trucks per se don’t interest me at all. It’s just a job.

Firstly, the er, first post. Trucks are 7% of the traffic. I thought it was slightly less than that, but never mind. Obviously there are variances. Where I live trucks form 0% of the traffic, on m’ways its what, 50%? Then the stat of 45% of fatalities. I think that’s easy to explain. Trucks are heavy, they’re difficult to drive and they have no crash protection whatsoever. My feet sit 12” behind the front of the truck. However I did once read that when expressed over distance, the accident rates of trucks and cars are about the same. I found this shocking. How can it be possible that cars, the easiest vehicles of all to drive, have the same rate of prangs as trucks?

I believe that there are virtually no ‘accidents’ between cars and trucks. In almost every incident or near miss that I ever see, there was no need for the car to get so close to the truck. And the one about trucks too close to the vehicle in front – all I know is that whenever there is a gap between me and the vehicle in front, a car will fill it. In fact, I’ve known it when there wasn’t a gap between me and the car in front, and still another car got between us.

chris watton said:

Lorries can be a nightmare! I was an hour late for work one day last week

Chris, I think you should sink down to your knees right now and prostrate yourself in gratitude that you were once delayed for one hour. I lose one hour of every single working day of my life, due to the sheer number of cars on the road. I'm self-employed, and i could get another load in with that hour. That’s about 45 quid a day that you guys are costing me. Work that figure out, and if you're worried I'm exaggerating, cut the figure in half and its still frightening.

gh0st said:

Indicator flashing for a mere split second before pulling out. Why?! Give us a chance to react before occupying the lane!! If its not clear WAIT YOUR TURN!!!

I’d be happy to give plenty of warning, but honestly, you soon learn not to. The only reward for a proper indicate is for the gap to suddenly disappear as a car driver accelerates and closes the gap, or changes lane to block my overtake or whatever. In fact I believe that most ‘habits’ of truckers that wind people up are not performed purely to wind people up, but come about because that’s what you have to do to make progress. I think its probably true that car drivers get the lorry drivers they deserve.
Also, do you always need the truck, or any vehicle come to that, to put flashing lights on to warn you that it is gaining on the vehicle in front? Me, being such a smartypants, has often already moved into lane 3 (when in car, I should add) when its obvious that a vehicle is going to want lane 2. That way I don’t get held up.

supermono said:

Roll on the day we fix the railways so goods can be transported in a sensible fashion -- slashing congestion, pollution, road maintenance costs and of course road deaths in a stroke.

Go for it, sm. If you can find a more efficient way of getting the goods from factory to point of need without involving trucks you’ll be the richest man on the planet.

nickwilcock said:

People need to be VERY AWARE of the hazards posed by LHD HGVs. Perhaps they should be required by law to display "WARNING - LEFT HAND DRIVE" signs when being driven in the UK?

This is very true. There’s virtually no advice anywhere about this, not even in that pamphlet called the highway code. Not sure about the warning signs though, I find the foreign writing all over the truck is a bit of a giveaway, plus the fact that you can’t see a driver in the offside mirror of the cab. People should take notice of their surroundings when driving, but many don’t. They just drive blithely on without observation or anticipation. I read in the Telegraph (Honest John) of one poor woman who ended up upside down in the outside lane after the foreign truck she’d been driving alongside changed lanes. She said of the truck “it turned out to be Polish”. But it didn’t ‘turn out’ to be Polish, it was always Polish. And I bet it was blatantly obvious that it was gaining on the vehicle in front, but the woman just drove blithely on, completely oblivious to the great danger she was in. There is no way you’ll ever catch me driving in the blind spot of a truck, whatever its nationality. It’s the ultimate expression of numptiness, IMO, yet millions are doing it out there every day.

Trucks don’t cause congestion either. There are only 500,000 of us, and has been for decades. The numbers of cars has risen dramatically for year after year, and there’s anything between 10 – 15 million of them out there on the average day. People complain about the damage we do to roads, but look at the road building that has had to be done to accommodate cars. Round our way its been simply staggering, and nearly all the roundabouts by us now are smothered by traffic lights and umpteen lanes. None of this has had to be done for trucks. The cost of repairing truck damage must be insignificant compared to the road building for cars.

I think its ridiculous to complain of trucks on m’ways. The m’ways were built for commercial traffic (hgv and car). Our fantastic network was not built so that we could visit auntie at the weekend, nor were they built for commuters. People should live near where they work, instead of dragging the roads to a standstill twice a day. I think of roads as the arteries of the nation, and trucks are the life supporting corpuscles and oxygen whilst cars are the cholesterol.

And finally, speed limiters. What a disaster they’ve been. Who the thought they’d be a good idea? Oh yeah, forgot. 99% of car drivers, that’s who.

Driving a car is extremely easy, driving a truck is more difficult. Yet those who have it easy made it even more difficult to drive a truck than it already was. I can’t help thinking that being held up by the elephant racers is a perfectly just reward. After all, now that its harder for us, why shouldn’t it also be harder for you?

Limiters have slowed trucks on the safest roads of all, and have speeded them up on the less safe roads, ‘cos we’re all using them as cruise control on both m’ways and dual carriageways. And lets be honest, we’re not going to go back to having to use the throttle just to suit you guys. It wouldn’t be human nature. You wouldn’t do it for us. You asked for limiters, you got them, now stop whinging.

I can’t understand how limiters came about. I know they came through euro legislation, which makes it a bigger mystery. 20-odd years ago I used to truck around Europe. The speed limit was 80 kph, but truckers being truckers, we all did 90 kph. But that’s the thing – we all drove at the same speed. Furthermore, you don’t get the slow car drivers over there that we have here, so you’d never overtake cars either. Honestly, you could go a whole day without overtaking anything. I don’t know if the elephant racing is a problem in Europe. They don’t have as much 3 lane m’way as us, so there are many restrictions on overtaking trucks. But apply that here and we’re all gonna be stuck behind the numpty car driver doing 40 mph. Which means you’re all going to be flashing past us at 70+, but at some point you’re going to want to leave the motorway. Sounds like a recipe for disaster to me. Might even be worse than speed limiters themselves.

Anyway, after all that, I hope we can still be friends. Cheers guys.

Heebee

Gets coat.

[cptsideways]

heebeegeetee said:

Also, do you always need the truck, or any vehicle come to that, to put flashing lights on to warn you that it is gaining on the vehicle in front? Me, being such a smartypants, has often already moved into lane 3 (when in car, I should add) when its obvious that a vehicle is going to want lane 2. That way I don’t get held up.

Perfectly correct (except on duals where you often can't move), good observant drivers should'nt require indication from others who obviously have to make a lane change. Especially on dual/motorways.


Having driven many a truck with speed limiters there really is no excuse for lack of patience from truck drivers. The current situation is when many drivers are approaching that vehicle in front they will pull out regardless of others speed or position behind. This is where the danger lies especially on dual carriageways. I reported a ANSA driver for this last week when I was forced into the central reservation with a van towing a racecar on a trailer!