Caught by Laser Gun, is there any hope?
Discussion
After 4 years without a speeding ticket, it looks like the coppers hit the Euromillions Jackpot with me the other day...
I was caught doing over 100mph (supposedly) on the M6, clear skies, dry roads, and most other road users were doing the same rate of knots...
The lovely policeman used a laser gun & says they are never wrong and only have to be calibrated once a year to ensure their accuracy.
Does anyone know of any cases where a laser gun offence has been successfully defended in the UK? Anyone know a good lawyer that deals with these sort of issues?
To say I am gutted is an extreme understatement.
My wife and I have today witnessed more life threatening driving than speed. Inattention, inability and just plain old arrogance!
Argh!
I was caught doing over 100mph (supposedly) on the M6, clear skies, dry roads, and most other road users were doing the same rate of knots...
The lovely policeman used a laser gun & says they are never wrong and only have to be calibrated once a year to ensure their accuracy.
Does anyone know of any cases where a laser gun offence has been successfully defended in the UK? Anyone know a good lawyer that deals with these sort of issues?
To say I am gutted is an extreme understatement.
My wife and I have today witnessed more life threatening driving than speed. Inattention, inability and just plain old arrogance!
Argh!
You'll get some good advice in here - but the hot action is at www.pepipoo.com, the place is crawling for people tripping over to stop the Scamerati.
droptheclutch said:
The lovely policeman used a laser gun & says they are never wrong and only have to be calibrated once a year to ensure their accuracy.
Really?
And there was i thinking they had to be checked against a car with a calibrated speedo before and after any "enforcement period"
However i could be wrong...
No they are not infallible, easy enough to prove or demostrate they are not accurate all the time. Coursts are reluctant to accept the real evidence though despite remarkable evidence. See BBC's inside out program from Feb/March this year.
www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southwest/series7/speed-cameras.shtml
www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/southwest/series7/speed-cameras.shtml
monkeyhanger said:
The lovely policeman used a laser gun & says they are never wrong and only have to be calibrated once a year to ensure their accuracy.
Really?
And there was i thinking they had to be checked against a car with a calibrated speedo before and after any "enforcement period"
However i could be wrong...
Yes, I believe you are wrong.
The calibration is done on distance, and is usually done by aiming at a brick wall from a known distance.
The laser guns are distance measuring devices, and AFAIK they are calibrated on distance.
The speed is worked out from simple equation.....
speed = distance/time
Really ?
From here..
www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/speed1.htm
However the site could also be wrong...
a nice website said:
Calibration: Laser devices are self-calibrating. The device itself performs verification at power on, but the police must also check the device at the start and end of each tour of duty of the device. They often check the device against a patrol car with a calibrated speedometer, referred to as calibration verification. A record of the check must be made - usually in the officer's pocket book. If a calibration defect is found, the unit is returned to the manufacturer. Once a year the calibration is performed by the manufacturer or a certified agent, and a certificate of calibration is issued to the police. A visible sticker showing the date of calibration must be fixed to the device along with lead seals similar to what you would have on your electric meter.
From here..
www.ukspeedtraps.co.uk/speed1.htm
However the site could also be wrong...
See the ACPO Guidelines for full details, read it thoroughly and pick out any anomalies between PC statement, your view of events etc..
Ask for all evidence, which has to be provided at least 7 days prior to any hearing. Do your homework!
See;
www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/policieslist.asp
Good luck!
Ask for all evidence, which has to be provided at least 7 days prior to any hearing. Do your homework!
See;
www.acpo.police.uk/asp/policies/policieslist.asp
Good luck!
ledfoot said:
monkeyhanger said:
droptheclutch said:
The lovely policeman used a laser gun & says they are never wrong and only have to be calibrated once a year to ensure their accuracy.
Really?
And there was i thinking they had to be checked against a car with a calibrated speedo before and after any "enforcement period"
However i could be wrong...
Yes, I believe you are wrong.
The calibration is done on distance, and is usually done by aiming at a brick wall from a known distance.
The laser guns are distance measuring devices, and AFAIK they are calibrated on distance.
The speed is worked out from simple equation.....
speed = distance/time
AFAIK that is correct, however, there is no calibration of the time factor, so there is no proof that the speed indication is indeed correct. Add in 'sweep errors' and there is definitely reasonable doubt as to the actual speed, however to get a reading of 100mph< you must have been exceeding 70mph.
>> Edited by kevinday on Wednesday 7th September 15:21
The ACPO Code of Practice for Operational Use of Road Policing Enforcement Technology (1.5Mb pdf) gives info on the routine tests required.
From ACPO Codes of Practice.
14.7 Calibration/Testing
The device must be currently within its calibration period.
Due to the nature of the medium and systems used, these devices are continually self-calibrating.
Calibration verification is carried out:
(a) By the device itself during its built-in tests upon being switched 'on'
(b) During and as part of the start and end of tour checks. A record of
these checks will be made (i.e. in pocket note book).
Should a calibration defect arise, the device must be returned to the manufacturer or certified authorised agent before further use.
The manufacturer shall annually calibrate a speedmeter or his agent and a certificate should be issued to this effect and held by the police. A visible sticker showing the date of calibration should be fixed to the meter.
The type-approval process acknowledges the accuracy of the device together with its self-checking systems. In that respect, it is vital that at the start and conclusion of a tour of duty, all laser devices are checked in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions, and will include alignment and distance checks.
These checks will be recorded and noted as part of the evidence as to the integrity of the machine and the data so produced. Additionally, at each speed detection site, the officer will note that, when switched on, the device self-checked and operated correctly.
Where the operating design of the laser is such that a static distance check cannot be carried out the device must be checked against a calibrated speedometer by a drive through during the tour of duty during which the device is used.
The use of a patrol car to drive through each site to check the accuracy of the device is no longer required.
From ACPO Codes of Practice.
14.7 Calibration/Testing
The device must be currently within its calibration period.
Due to the nature of the medium and systems used, these devices are continually self-calibrating.
Calibration verification is carried out:
(a) By the device itself during its built-in tests upon being switched 'on'
(b) During and as part of the start and end of tour checks. A record of
these checks will be made (i.e. in pocket note book).
Should a calibration defect arise, the device must be returned to the manufacturer or certified authorised agent before further use.
The manufacturer shall annually calibrate a speedmeter or his agent and a certificate should be issued to this effect and held by the police. A visible sticker showing the date of calibration should be fixed to the meter.
The type-approval process acknowledges the accuracy of the device together with its self-checking systems. In that respect, it is vital that at the start and conclusion of a tour of duty, all laser devices are checked in accordance with the manufacturer’s instructions, and will include alignment and distance checks.
These checks will be recorded and noted as part of the evidence as to the integrity of the machine and the data so produced. Additionally, at each speed detection site, the officer will note that, when switched on, the device self-checked and operated correctly.
Where the operating design of the laser is such that a static distance check cannot be carried out the device must be checked against a calibrated speedometer by a drive through during the tour of duty during which the device is used.
The use of a patrol car to drive through each site to check the accuracy of the device is no longer required.
Thanks IaHa.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m under the impression that Lidar speed enforcement should not be carries out:
1) from a moving vehicle
2) from inside a vehicle through a closed window (14.2 “The beam must not be projected through glass or mirrors.”)
If the code of practice demands the above during enforcement, why are these rules ignored during calibration? Surely this defies the purpose of calibration?
ACPO Code of Practice said:
Where the operating design of the laser is such that a static distance check cannot be carried out the device must be checked against a calibrated speedometer by a drive through during the tour of duty during which the device is used.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m under the impression that Lidar speed enforcement should not be carries out:
1) from a moving vehicle
2) from inside a vehicle through a closed window (14.2 “The beam must not be projected through glass or mirrors.”)
If the code of practice demands the above during enforcement, why are these rules ignored during calibration? Surely this defies the purpose of calibration?
smeggy said:
Thanks IaHa.
ACPO Code of Practice said:
Where the operating design of the laser is such that a static distance check cannot be carried out the device must be checked against a calibrated speedometer by a drive through during the tour of duty during which the device is used.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I’m under the impression that Lidar speed enforcement should not be carries out:
1) from a moving vehicle
2) from inside a vehicle through a closed window (14.2 “The beam must not be projected through glass or mirrors.”)
If the code of practice demands the above during enforcement, why are these rules ignored during calibration? Surely this defies the purpose of calibration?
If BiB 1 drives his motor at 60 mph towards BiB 2 who checks said motor with his 'trusty' laser then there is no compromise of either point you've raised.
IaHa said:whoopsie
If BiB 1 drives his motor at 60 mph towards BiB 2 who checks said motor with his 'trusty' laser then there is no compromise of either point you've raised.
I interpreted “such that a static distance check cannot be carried out” to mean ‘operate and confirm Lidar performance from a moving car’. I thought that was a bit too stupid to be true
safespeed said:
Just wait for the 12th September. Inside Out have further revelations. Unfortunately I can't say more right now.
Its going to be worth watching!
I trust you plod lads will be watching this too you never know you might be back on the roads doing proper traffic policing! Mr Steve Callahan I trust you will sit down, take note, get the Saga brochures out & start to plan your retirement.
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