Speed cameras: Are we interested in evidence?
Discussion
768 said:
vonhosen said:
Yet easily avoidable if you choose to do so.
From how many speeding offences committed is that?
Incredibly inefficient prosecution rates & not worth worrying about for the vast majority of drivers.
Of course it's hardly any offences that are prosecuted. You can't chop the whole forest down or you lose your revenue stream from selling timber.From how many speeding offences committed is that?
Incredibly inefficient prosecution rates & not worth worrying about for the vast majority of drivers.
And those that want to offer themselves up for it, often the same ones b
hing about it, are welcome to it.Surely the whole "let's paint them bright yellow and outlaw hidden ones" move (was that the 90s or the 00s? A long time ago, anyway) was to remove the notion that they're just trying to catch you out. Then average speed cameras came in to catch the people trying to game the system by speeding up between the cameras, as well as reducing the amount of people caught for speeding up to get out of a blind spot, or who suffer with premature acceleration (it happens to every man at least once in his life).
Inappropriately low speed limits are a different issue to how those limits are enforced. Yes they can be annoying. But all you can do is complain to whichever authority is responsible for setting the limit on that road and hope enough people do the same that there is some sort of review that shows it's a silly limit. I wouldn't hold your breath, just look at Wales and London. But flouting legal requirements just because you disagree with them is rarely the key to an easy life.
Inappropriately low speed limits are a different issue to how those limits are enforced. Yes they can be annoying. But all you can do is complain to whichever authority is responsible for setting the limit on that road and hope enough people do the same that there is some sort of review that shows it's a silly limit. I wouldn't hold your breath, just look at Wales and London. But flouting legal requirements just because you disagree with them is rarely the key to an easy life.
vonhosen said:
Dave Finney said:
heebeegeetee said:
Hi Dave,
What do you think are the real problems with road safety?
That road safety is politics.What do you think are the real problems with road safety?
I believe road safety should be a branch of "safety engineering".
(IOW, it should be "evidence led").
They are a road management, pollution (noise, air, health), social tool too.
1. competency
2. honesty.
Are the benefits you hope to achieve using speed cameras worth there being more people killed and seriously injured?
768 said:
There are over 2 million people with points for speeding now, wildly disproportionate because it's significant business now. No tin foil hat required to see that, just eyes.
Now I disagree with that completely. There are about 40 million licence holders I believe, and I believe the vast overwhelming majority break speed limits, either infrequently or respectively.
I do too, ie on a 40mph road I use frequently, I'm usually doing 46 and so is everyone else except those overtaking us. We all slow for a camera, then speed up again.
The fact that only 2 million drivers have points for speeding shows to me that policing and enforcement is very lax, and totally undermines your case of revenue generation.
heebeegeetee said:
The fact that only 2 million drivers have points for speeding shows to me that policing and enforcement is very lax, and totally undermines your case of revenue generation.
"Only 2 million." 
Of course it doesn't, it makes the case.If they increased the enforcement so that they were fining everyone, every time they went over the limit, then that would kill off the revenue generation immediately. If they just used points, that would kill off the revenue generation immediately. The only way they can maximise revenue generation is by it not being a significant enough factor that either behaviours or policies are changed. That's just the Laffer curve in action.
768 said:
"Only 2 million." Of course it doesn't, it makes the case.
If they increased the enforcement so that they were fining everyone, every time they went over the limit, then that would kill off the revenue generation immediately. If they just used points, that would kill off the revenue generation immediately. The only way they can maximise revenue generation is by it not being a significant enough factor that either behaviours or policies are changed. That's just the Laffer curve in action.
Well, I'm very surprised how low the number is, given the amount of driving above speed limits is taking place. Of course it doesn't, it makes the case.If they increased the enforcement so that they were fining everyone, every time they went over the limit, then that would kill off the revenue generation immediately. If they just used points, that would kill off the revenue generation immediately. The only way they can maximise revenue generation is by it not being a significant enough factor that either behaviours or policies are changed. That's just the Laffer curve in action.
heebeegeetee said:
768 said:
"Only 2 million." Of course it doesn't, it makes the case.
If they increased the enforcement so that they were fining everyone, every time they went over the limit, then that would kill off the revenue generation immediately. If they just used points, that would kill off the revenue generation immediately. The only way they can maximise revenue generation is by it not being a significant enough factor that either behaviours or policies are changed. That's just the Laffer curve in action.
Well, I'm very surprised how low the number is, given the amount of driving above speed limits is taking place. Of course it doesn't, it makes the case.If they increased the enforcement so that they were fining everyone, every time they went over the limit, then that would kill off the revenue generation immediately. If they just used points, that would kill off the revenue generation immediately. The only way they can maximise revenue generation is by it not being a significant enough factor that either behaviours or policies are changed. That's just the Laffer curve in action.
Getting done is a rarity that will take years to occur again if at all for most, and they will likely have another course with bitterness and "the motions", unless they receive a misrepresentation of their safe driving being unsafe again within the time required for another course, then things can get interesting quickly.
I believe that be it a cash cow, over aggressive education enrolment strategy, short sighted narrow mindedness of well intending people or a combination, the result of their action is commonly not safer roads as my experience, observations, statistics and Dave's results show. Let's not lose sight of the importance of that.
heebeegeetee said:
Well, I'm very surprised how low the number is (2 million drivers have points for speeding), given the amount of driving above speed limits is taking place.
How much "driving above speed limits" do you think might be taking place?IOW, in your estimation, what percentage of all miles driven was above the speed limit?
Dave Finney said:
How much "driving above speed limits" do you think might be taking place?
IOW, in your estimation, what percentage of all miles driven was above the speed limit?
Where it's possible - IE you're not stuck in traffic, I suggest it's somewhere around :IOW, in your estimation, what percentage of all miles driven was above the speed limit?
60% on country roads, including going through villages
40% in residential areas
20% on motorways - most traffic has slowed down since fuel prices increased some years ago
KTMsm said:
Dave Finney said:
How much "driving above speed limits" do you think might be taking place?
IOW, in your estimation, what percentage of all miles driven was above the speed limit?
Where it's possible - IE you're not stuck in traffic, I suggest it's somewhere around :IOW, in your estimation, what percentage of all miles driven was above the speed limit?
60% on country roads, including going through villages
40% in residential areas
20% on motorways - most traffic has slowed down since fuel prices increased some years ago
I'd estimate a bit less than that but, yes, somewhere in that area.
Dave Finney said:
How much "driving above speed limits" do you think might be taking place?
IOW, in your estimation, what percentage of all miles driven was above the speed limit?
Okay, well due to congestion I dare say a lot lower than I might otherwise think.IOW, in your estimation, what percentage of all miles driven was above the speed limit?
Also, if there is an overall figure of all vehicles it will include billions of miles driven by speed limited HGVs etc running 24/7.
On clear, free flowing roads I think most vehicles able to do so drive above the speed limit, particularly in urban areas. It doesn't bother me, I'll be one of them too, but on some 30 and 40mph roads I'm thinking of, I think nigh on every vehicle will be above the speed limit.
With up to 40 million people taking to the roads every day in one form or another, hundreds of millions of miles driven every single day, I really honestly don't think 2 million people having points for speeding is a problem or an issue of any sort. I am genuinely surprised it's that low.
heebeegeetee said:
Okay, well due to congestion I dare say a lot lower than I might otherwise think.
Also, if there is an overall figure of all vehicles it will include billions of miles driven by speed limited HGVs etc running 24/7.
On clear, free flowing roads I think most vehicles able to do so drive above the speed limit, particularly in urban areas. It doesn't bother me, I'll be one of them too, but on some 30 and 40mph roads I'm thinking of, I think nigh on every vehicle will be above the speed limit.
So congestion, 0% speeding, but low number of milesAlso, if there is an overall figure of all vehicles it will include billions of miles driven by speed limited HGVs etc running 24/7.
On clear, free flowing roads I think most vehicles able to do so drive above the speed limit, particularly in urban areas. It doesn't bother me, I'll be one of them too, but on some 30 and 40mph roads I'm thinking of, I think nigh on every vehicle will be above the speed limit.
and HGVs on motorways, nearly 0% speeding with high number of miles.
elsewhere very high speeding rates.
So overall maybe you might estimate about 10% of all miles driven are above the speed limit?
I'd estimate a bit higher than that but, yes, we would agree somewhere in that area.
I'm guessing that most people would think between 10% and 15% of all miles driven are above the speed limit, just from their personal experience.
Dave Finney said:
So congestion, 0% speeding, but low number of miles
and HGVs on motorways, nearly 0% speeding with high number of miles.
elsewhere very high speeding rates.
So overall maybe you might estimate about 10% of all miles driven are above the speed limit?
I'd estimate a bit higher than that but, yes, we would agree somewhere in that area.
I'm guessing that most people would think between 10% and 15% of all miles driven are above the speed limit, just from their personal experience.
Yes, you have to include congestion and HGVs to get that figure.and HGVs on motorways, nearly 0% speeding with high number of miles.
elsewhere very high speeding rates.
So overall maybe you might estimate about 10% of all miles driven are above the speed limit?
I'd estimate a bit higher than that but, yes, we would agree somewhere in that area.
I'm guessing that most people would think between 10% and 15% of all miles driven are above the speed limit, just from their personal experience.
Where that doesn't apply, it'll be far higher, on the roads I'm thinking of, based on personal experience it'll be about 80% apart from the bit where we all slow for the camera.
"All miles driven" though, that will be a phenomenal figure. Genuine question, any idea what that is. It's not a trick question, I don't know the answer to that one.
heebeegeetee said:
Yes, you have to include congestion and HGVs to get that figure.
Where that doesn't apply, it'll be far higher, on the roads I'm thinking of, based on personal experience it'll be about 80% apart from the bit where we all slow for the camera.
"All miles driven" though, that will be a phenomenal figure. Genuine question, any idea what that is. It's not a trick question, I don't know the answer to that one.
Seems to be 323 billion. 15% of which is Where that doesn't apply, it'll be far higher, on the roads I'm thinking of, based on personal experience it'll be about 80% apart from the bit where we all slow for the camera.
"All miles driven" though, that will be a phenomenal figure. Genuine question, any idea what that is. It's not a trick question, I don't know the answer to that one.
4,845,0000,000 I reckon.
That's a lot of miles over the speed limit. 2 million end up with points, but not annually.
https://roadtraffic.dft.gov.uk/summary
Dave Finney said:
vonhosen said:
Dave Finney said:
heebeegeetee said:
Hi Dave,
What do you think are the real problems with road safety?
That road safety is politics.What do you think are the real problems with road safety?
I believe road safety should be a branch of "safety engineering".
(IOW, it should be "evidence led").
They are a road management, pollution (noise, air, health), social tool too.
1. competency
2. honesty.
Are the benefits you hope to achieve using speed cameras worth there being more people killed and seriously injured?
KTMsm said:
Dave Finney said:
How much "driving above speed limits" do you think might be taking place?
IOW, in your estimation, what percentage of all miles driven was above the speed limit?
Where it's possible - IE you're not stuck in traffic, I suggest it's somewhere around :IOW, in your estimation, what percentage of all miles driven was above the speed limit?
60% on country roads, including going through villages
40% in residential areas
20% on motorways - most traffic has slowed down since fuel prices increased some years ago
Motorway - 55% comply
NSL single carriageway 89% comply
20mph 12 percent comply
768 said:
heebeegeetee said:
The fact that only 2 million drivers have points for speeding shows to me that policing and enforcement is very lax, and totally undermines your case of revenue generation.
"Only 2 million." Of course it doesn't, it makes the case.If they increased the enforcement so that they were fining everyone, every time they went over the limit, then that would kill off the revenue generation immediately. If they just used points, that would kill off the revenue generation immediately. The only way they can maximise revenue generation is by it not being a significant enough factor that either behaviours or policies are changed. That's just the Laffer curve in action.
vonhosen said:
Until you identify the scope of & weight all the benefits achieved you can't know the answer.
Yes, I agree.and for that we need evidence.
Something that I have provided for the 1st time in my video!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GqOm-keyss
Maybe you and I are of the few that would answer "Yes" to the thread title?
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