12 Points - Automatic Ban?

[Dog Star]

TwigtheWonderkid said:

In the 90s I was a high mileage driver in a hot hatch, and picked up 6 points. I couldn't afford to lose my licence, and my job, so I just stopped speeding. I just never went above the limit at all, ever. Until the first lot of 3 points dropped off. When I went out at weekends with my wife, I never drove. She drove always.

I never picked up any more points in this time. That wasn't luck. It was a change in behaviour due to recognising the possible seriousness consequences of not changing my behaviour.

This.

Last year I picked up my first ever SP30 in almost 4 decades. “It’s no big deal” many of you might say, but I’m only one tiny slip up or lapse of concentration and I could be on three more - six points. That is going to have a significant effect on my insurance premiums (several of which are on high group vehicles), so just like Twig I now always drive under the speed limit (none of that 10% + 2 bolleaux for me), let Mrs DS drive and I’m avoiding Sunday motorbike runs out with my mates - the fast ones at least.

[fridaypassion]

When it was all fields in the 90s it was almost impossible to get points as we l there were no cameras! You don't have to be an unsafe dangerous or inattentive driver to get speeding points it's a tax!

I had a clean license for 20 years and got 3 points last year when a pair of dheads in a police car tried to ram me off the road (jealous of the McLaren) I was in the wrong place at the wrong time wasn't doing anything particularly wrong!

[Ezra]

The Brummie said:

The simple fact is this - I can't raise, beg, steal or borrow the money to pay AGT.

Credit cards maxed out, don't have any savings & having spent £1k to MOT the car 10 days ago (after spending £700 on a new wheel & a pair of tyres just before Xmas) I don't have the funds.

Thinking the best (only) option is to plead guilty (even though I don't agree with the claimed speed), enter my plea of mitigation & see what punishment is handed out.

Short of a lottery win I'm stuffed.

Get on Google and read all you can about making an 'exceptional hardship' argument. If you're heading for 12 points you'll have to go to the magistrates court for a totting disqualification. It's possible to avoid a ban if your exceptional hardship argument is successful. If you're not legally represented the court legal advisor will take you through the process and ask questions to determine whether the court could simply give points rather than a disqualification. If you try for exceptional hardship, make sure to research all you can about how to develop the argument. It would be best to have legal representation with you in court but if you can't afford it, its not as daunting as you may imagine....esp if you've got your argument/points well rehearsed. It's important to take evidence with you to substantiate any points you make. Example, if an elderly relative relies on you for hospital visits or Dr appointments, take some evidence of the regularity of appointments or a letter from the relative outlining how indispensable you are. One last point...if you are successful in avoiding a disqualification you will get points, meaning you'll have 12 (maybe more) points on your licence and you can't use any of the issues you used in the exceptional hardship argument for 3 years. So, any further points on the licence will mean a definite ban.

[vaud]

Ezra said:

The Brummie said:

The simple fact is this - I can't raise, beg, steal or borrow the money to pay AGT.

Credit cards maxed out, don't have any savings & having spent £1k to MOT the car 10 days ago (after spending £700 on a new wheel & a pair of tyres just before Xmas) I don't have the funds.

Thinking the best (only) option is to plead guilty (even though I don't agree with the claimed speed), enter my plea of mitigation & see what punishment is handed out.

Short of a lottery win I'm stuffed.

Get on Google and read all you can about making an 'exceptional hardship' argument. If you're heading for 12 points you'll have to go to the magistrates court for a totting disqualification. It's possible to avoid a ban if your exceptional hardship argument is successful. If you're not legally represented the court legal advisor will take you through the process and ask questions to determine whether the court could simply give points rather than a disqualification. If you try for exceptional hardship, make sure to research all you can about how to develop the argument. It would be best to have legal representation with you in court but if you can't afford it, its not as daunting as you may imagine....esp if you've got your argument/points well rehearsed. It's important to take evidence with you to substantiate any points you make. Example, if an elderly relative relies on you for hospital visits or Dr appointments, take some evidence of the regularity of appointments or a letter from the relative outlining how indispensable you are. One last point...if you are successful in avoiding a disqualification you will get points, meaning you'll have 12 (maybe more) points on your licence and you can't use any of the issues you used in the exceptional hardship argument for 3 years. So, any further points on the licence will mean a definite ban.

Also my understanding is that providing you follow process and don't try to pretend to be a barrister and use plain English then the judge will be accommodating. But I defer to AGTLaw et al.

[Recalcitrant]

The Brummie said:

The simple fact is this - I can't raise, beg, steal or borrow the money to pay AGT.

Credit cards maxed out, don't have any savings & having spent £1k to MOT the car 10 days ago (after spending £700 on a new wheel & a pair of tyres just before Xmas) I don't have the funds.

Thinking the best (only) option is to plead guilty (even though I don't agree with the claimed speed), enter my plea of mitigation & see what punishment is handed out.

Short of a lottery win I'm stuffed.

Sorry for your predicament, and I'm not having a go, but if this is your situation, is it not easier to just be really careful and obey the limits?

We can all make mistakes and get done for speeding, but if you're a careful driver, it shouldn't keep happening.

[Ezra]

vaud said:

Also my understanding is that providing you follow process and don't try to pretend to be a barrister and use plain English then the judge will be accommodating. But I defer to AGTLaw et al.

It will be a magistrates court so, almost certainly, it'll be 2 or 3 magistrates who will decide...not a judge. Unlikely any district judge would do a traffic court.

[kestral]

The Brummie said:

Received the dreaded letter from Gloucestershire Constabulary this morning.

Was expecting a Court date. Not so.

Instead I have 21 days to plead either guilty (I do not want to come to Court) guilty(I want to come to Court) or not guilty (send me the date for my trial).

Whichever I decide I can enter a plea of mitigation.

So what do I do?

I don’t agree with the claimed speed I was doing but how do I disprove the allegation?

I haven’t received any photographic evidence despite requesting it on 3 separate occasions.

Do I plead guilty & hope that my plea for mitigation against loosing my licence is accepted.

Or do I plead not guilty & go to trial?

If I loose my licence I loose my job due too working all over the UK - a car is essential due to the unsociable hours.

Also means getting too see my 94 y/o dad every week will be difficult.

Not excuses just stating facts.

I have emailed Andrew @ AGT Law however having just spent over £1k getting my car through the MOT I can’t afford him at the moment.

Genuinely have no idea what to do.

Disputing the claimed speed is not mitigation.

In cases like this the defendant can plead guilty and have a Newton hearing.

That means you get to go into the box, swear an oath and say your version of the facts.

Beware that if you do the prosecution may cross examine you and ask you to expain how their equipment used in thousands of speeding cases is wrong.

A complete waste of time particularly for a speeding offence, there are thousands of people every year who say "I was not going that fast".

Plead guilty and give your hardship case on oath.

[siremoon]

Recalcitrant said:

Sorry for your predicament, and I'm not having a go, but if this is your situation, is it not easier to just be really careful and obey the limits?

We can all make mistakes and get done for speeding, but if you're a careful driver, it shouldn't keep happening.

Come on, you can't say that on here.

In the real world someone who's livelihood and financial means are such that the prospect of a driving ban would be catastrophic would be expected to get the hint after being caught 2 or 3 times, and be condemned for being terminally stupid should they not subsequently moderate their driving to prevent another occurrence.

But not on here, oh no. On here they are deified and portrayed as just an innocent victim of an unjust system. Part of the ever growing tendency of people not taking responsibility for their own actions and seeking to blame everything and everybody except themselves. I have every sympathy with somebody who gets caught once or twice because that can happen to anyone. Three times not so much and four times not at all. Indeed as in most cases the first time is an SAC you really get five chances before risking a ban.

Next month it will be 45 years since I passed my test. I've had a string of (for their day) high performance cars from hot hatches through to BMW M cars. I like driving, I like to press on but I've never had a speeding ticket? Why? Because I use the thing between my ears when I'm driving. More people should try it then we wouldn't have the usual succession of whinging posters and their apologists about being caught.

[Forester1965]

Controversial opinion/a Devil's Advocate; it sounds like life is tough for the OP now. It suggests things aren't working that well, financially at least. Perhaps a break from the road and a change of job would be an opportunity to reset altogether?

If that would lead to severe hardship for others in the OP's life, then you have the beginnings of an exceptional hardship argument. If it wouldn't, you don't have much reason to avoid the disqualification.

Sadly, legal advice in the UK for matters like this is either expensive or otherwise largely unavailable.

I wish the OP the best.

[BertBert]

siremoon said:

I like to press on but I've never had a speeding ticket? Why? Because I use the thing between my ears when I'm driving. More people should try it then we wouldn't have the usual succession of whinging posters and their apologists about being caught.

Sorry that's just nonsense. If you really think you can spot a cam van far enough away to do anything about it, then you are fooling yourself.
There's just this thing called luck (or statistics if you prefer). You can clearly drive like an idiot and make matters worse. Mind you if you do have a clever observational system that allows you to speed with impunity, I'd write a book about it, it'll be a best seller.

[The Brummie]

BertBert said:

Sorry that's just nonsense. If you really think you can spot a cam van far enough away to do anything about it, then you are fooling yourself.
There's just this thing called luck (or statistics if you prefer). You can clearly drive like an idiot and make matters worse. Mind you if you do have a clever observational system that allows you to speed with impunity, I'd write a book about it, it'll be a best seller.

Since my third time being caught I have been very careful - one eye on the limit on my sat-nav etc.

The fourth time? The camera was on a bridge 40 foot above the dual carriageway!!!!

Never in 20 years of using that road 2 or 3 times each day have a seen a camera set on the bridge.

I currently drive 25/30000 miles every year so I guess at sometime you will get caught.

I just managed too fk up & get caught 4 times!!!

I am fully aware that challenging the recorded speed would be virtually impossible.

Just thought I'd ask the question because of the large number of backroom 'know it all's' on here!!

Never looked for the sympathy vote. Realise I have too face up too my errors.

Edited by The Brummie on Friday 2nd February 10:07

[speedking31]

siremoon said:

In the real world someone who's livelihood and financial means are such that the prospect of a driving ban would be catastrophic would be expected to get the hint after being caught 2 or 3 times, and be condemned for being terminally stupid should they not subsequently moderate their driving to prevent another occurrence.

To turn that argument around, is the punishment proportionate to the crime? Yes the poster has been caught exceeding the speed limit 5 times in 3 years. We don't know all the circumstances, but if my 58 in a 50 on a clear dry dual carriageway in daylight is representative then he has some sympathy. If the punishment amounts to loss of job and consequently house etc. and the amenity value of driving then it seems disproportionate to me.

[clive_candy]

siremoon said:

Recalcitrant said:

Sorry for your predicament, and I'm not having a go, but if this is your situation, is it not easier to just be really careful and obey the limits?

We can all make mistakes and get done for speeding, but if you're a careful driver, it shouldn't keep happening.

Come on, you can't say that on here.

In the real world someone who's livelihood and financial means are such that the prospect of a driving ban would be catastrophic would be expected to get the hint after being caught 2 or 3 times, and be condemned for being terminally stupid should they not subsequently moderate their driving to prevent another occurrence.

But not on here, oh no. On here they are deified and portrayed as just an innocent victim of an unjust system. Part of the ever growing tendency of people not taking responsibility for their own actions and seeking to blame everything and everybody except themselves. I have every sympathy with somebody who gets caught once or twice because that can happen to anyone. Three times not so much and four times not at all. Indeed as in most cases the first time is an SAC you really get five chances before risking a ban.

Next month it will be 45 years since I passed my test. I've had a string of (for their day) high performance cars from hot hatches through to BMW M cars. I like driving, I like to press on but I've never had a speeding ticket? Why? Because I use the thing between my ears when I'm driving. More people should try it then we wouldn't have the usual succession of whinging posters and their apologists about being caught.

Sir, I admire your chutzpah.

[TheDrownedApe]

speedking31 said:

o turn that argument around, is the punishment proportionate to the crime? Yes the poster has been caught exceeding the speed limit 5 times in 3 years. We don't know all the circumstances, but if my 58 in a 50 on a clear dry dual carriageway in daylight is representative then he has some sympathy. If the punishment amounts to loss of job and consequently house etc. and the amenity value of driving then it seems disproportionate to me.

To turn it around. The OP was given 4 chances to moderate his speed and stick to the prescribed limits. He chose to either not respect the warnings or drive in such a way that he was unaware of his speed.

Either way the previous 4 punishments haven't persuaded him to change his behaviour; perhaps the previous 4 punsihements were not proportionate?

OP Good luck, but please learn.

[NFT]

clive_candy said:

siremoon said:

Recalcitrant said:

Sorry for your predicament, and I'm not having a go, but if this is your situation, is it not easier to just be really careful and obey the limits?

We can all make mistakes and get done for speeding, but if you're a careful driver, it shouldn't keep happening.

Come on, you can't say that on here.

In the real world someone who's livelihood and financial means are such that the prospect of a driving ban would be catastrophic would be expected to get the hint after being caught 2 or 3 times, and be condemned for being terminally stupid should they not subsequently moderate their driving to prevent another occurrence.

But not on here, oh no. On here they are deified and portrayed as just an innocent victim of an unjust system. Part of the ever growing tendency of people not taking responsibility for their own actions and seeking to blame everything and everybody except themselves. I have every sympathy with somebody who gets caught once or twice because that can happen to anyone. Three times not so much and four times not at all. Indeed as in most cases the first time is an SAC you really get five chances before risking a ban.

Next month it will be 45 years since I passed my test. I've had a string of (for their day) high performance cars from hot hatches through to BMW M cars. I like driving, I like to press on but I've never had a speeding ticket? Why? Because I use the thing between my ears when I'm driving. More people should try it then we wouldn't have the usual succession of whinging posters and their apologists about being caught.

Sir, I admire your chutzpah.

I know lots of old chaps that only started getting tickets lately, its the buggers using scopes in a van that got them. Because they see you before you see them.

[E-bmw]

NFT said:

clive_candy said:

siremoon said:

Recalcitrant said:

Sorry for your predicament, and I'm not having a go, but if this is your situation, is it not easier to just be really careful and obey the limits?

We can all make mistakes and get done for speeding, but if you're a careful driver, it shouldn't keep happening.

Come on, you can't say that on here.

In the real world someone who's livelihood and financial means are such that the prospect of a driving ban would be catastrophic would be expected to get the hint after being caught 2 or 3 times, and be condemned for being terminally stupid should they not subsequently moderate their driving to prevent another occurrence.

But not on here, oh no. On here they are deified and portrayed as just an innocent victim of an unjust system. Part of the ever growing tendency of people not taking responsibility for their own actions and seeking to blame everything and everybody except themselves. I have every sympathy with somebody who gets caught once or twice because that can happen to anyone. Three times not so much and four times not at all. Indeed as in most cases the first time is an SAC you really get five chances before risking a ban.

Next month it will be 45 years since I passed my test. I've had a string of (for their day) high performance cars from hot hatches through to BMW M cars. I like driving, I like to press on but I've never had a speeding ticket? Why? Because I use the thing between my ears when I'm driving. More people should try it then we wouldn't have the usual succession of whinging posters and their apologists about being caught.

Sir, I admire your chutzpah.

I know lots of old chaps that only started getting tickets lately, its the buggers using scopes in a van that got them. Because they see you before you see them.

They all, always see you before you see them.

Unless when you are driving along you are looking at bridges/laybys etc rather than the road & just happen to be looking there as you round the bend etc.

[matchmaker]

siremoon said:

Recalcitrant said:

Sorry for your predicament, and I'm not having a go, but if this is your situation, is it not easier to just be really careful and obey the limits?

We can all make mistakes and get done for speeding, but if you're a careful driver, it shouldn't keep happening.

Come on, you can't say that on here.

In the real world someone who's livelihood and financial means are such that the prospect of a driving ban would be catastrophic would be expected to get the hint after being caught 2 or 3 times, and be condemned for being terminally stupid should they not subsequently moderate their driving to prevent another occurrence.

But not on here, oh no. On here they are deified and portrayed as just an innocent victim of an unjust system. Part of the ever growing tendency of people not taking responsibility for their own actions and seeking to blame everything and everybody except themselves. I have every sympathy with somebody who gets caught once or twice because that can happen to anyone. Three times not so much and four times not at all. Indeed as in most cases the first time is an SAC you really get five chances before risking a ban.

Next month it will be 45 years since I passed my test. I've had a string of (for their day) high performance cars from hot hatches through to BMW M cars. I like driving, I like to press on but I've never had a speeding ticket? Why? Because I use the thing between my ears when I'm driving. More people should try it then we wouldn't have the usual succession of whinging posters and their apologists about being caught.

I could have said exactly the same, although it is over 48 years since I passed my test. It's not rocket science.

[Drumroll]

E-bmw said:

They all, always see you before you see them.

Unless when you are driving along you are looking at bridges/laybys etc rather than the road & just happen to be looking there as you round the bend etc.

I don't know about you but when I am driving I do look at laybys, as a vehicle may be about to leave and in my overall observations I may see a vehicle parked on a bridge. What are you concentrating on?

[The Brummie]

TheDrownedApe said:

speedking31 said:

o turn that argument around, is the punishment proportionate to the crime? Yes the poster has been caught exceeding the speed limit 5 times in 3 years. We don't know all the circumstances, but if my 58 in a 50 on a clear dry dual carriageway in daylight is representative then he has some sympathy. If the punishment amounts to loss of job and consequently house etc. and the amenity value of driving then it seems disproportionate to me.

To turn it around. The OP was given 4 chances to moderate his speed and stick to the prescribed limits. He chose to either not respect the warnings or drive in such a way that he was unaware of his speed.

Either way the previous 4 punishments haven't persuaded him to change his behaviour; perhaps the previous 4 punsihements were not proportionate?

OP Good luck, but please learn.

I did actually 'change my behaviour' after the 6 points.

The third catch was on a road I had not driven on for 5 years - I didn't know that the limit had gone from 40 to 30.

No visible speed signs, I saw the camera van & assumed I was ok because of what I though was a 40 limit.

I found out my error a few days later.

The fourth was on dual carriageway. The camera van is usually parked in a lay-by.

This time the camera was on a bridge 35/40 foot above the road.

I had no idea he was there until I went under the bridge - the NIP arrived a few days later.

And for those who say I should have been aware, had more spacial awareness etc etc that's ok on a quietish road.

On a fast flowing dual carriageway you have too concentrate on the road & whilst you also have too be aware of your surroundings you can't take your eyes off the road all the time.

Never in 20 years of using that stretch of road at least twice each day have I seen a camera on the bridge.

Was I careless? Maybe however if I had shunted my car & used the excuse 'I was looking for a speed camera on a bridge' I would have been done for driving without due care or dangerous driving.

Can't win can I?

And no I'm not after the sympathy vote.

st happens. I got caught & now have too face the consequences.

[Alickadoo]

I apologise if I have done the 'smart arse' reply. Guilty.

But, please forgive me, instead of peering into lay-bys and forgetting to check bridges and overpasses, why not just drive at the speed limit? Then you wouldn't have to worry who is, or isn't, on the bridge?