Solicitor to sue an Audi dealer
Discussion
davidcw58 said:
The previous owner had died and his wife was moving abroad so needed to sell. I was interested in buying but needed to get a handle on a gearbox fault warning light. She took the car into Audi to have it investigated. They did a diagnostic and vehicle health check.
Their diagnostic conclusion was ‘Drive position sensor electrical malfunction requires basic setting. Further work required’ They quoted £300 for that and and a further £1600 for various other works (including leaking rear diff seals) . As it said 'further work required' I rang them to discuss. I explained I was interested in buying but obviously wouldn't if there was a big gearbox problem. I specifically asked if the reset was the 'further work required' and would that cure the problem or would further work be required. She went away for a few minutes and then came back and said the reset would cure the problem. On that basis I bought the car with an appropriate allowance for the cost of all the works they had identified.
I took it in to have the gearbox fixed and it didn't work. They said gearbox has to be stripped and sensor replaced. Claimed the reset was just the first step in the process. Despite their message when you call saying 'all calls are recorded' they claim to not have the recording and therefore say there is nothing they can do about it. This G626 sensor is a known fault on these and from a conversation with an independent Audi specialist after I bought it, it was never going to work. They have done a number of them. Obviously I would not have bought the car with a potential major gearbox problem. I'd have asked the vendor to spend the £300 and see if it fixed it. The cheapest quote I have had to fix it is £2500. I think Audi's price was over 6000
They missed a number of things on the health check. Leaking rocker cover gaskets (which they had replaced one side 5/21 at 94520 miles the other side 2/20 at 90740), oil leak from vacuum pump, leaking oil cooler and sump gasket (resealed by them previously with what looks like bathroom sealant.), various bushes split in front suspension. They had replaced the leaking diff seals in July 2020.13 months and 4800 miles later they recorded on the MOT they were leaking again. The diff seals failed within their 2 year warranty period. The audi specialist tells me they have done a number of diff seals and now they always rebuild the drive shafts at the same time otherwise in their experience the seals always fail again. Given they failed less than 4800 miles after they were replaced the wear in the drive shafts should have been apparent even if the dealerships experience didn't tell them to overhaul the shafts.
There are other faults but I wouldn't have expected the dealership to find those as part of a health check.
Apart from the quality of work they have done, to my mind they had a duty of care in their advice and have failed to fulfil that.
From reading that I assume you only paid £50 for the car ?? Sounds like a poor poor car to begin with. Their diagnostic conclusion was ‘Drive position sensor electrical malfunction requires basic setting. Further work required’ They quoted £300 for that and and a further £1600 for various other works (including leaking rear diff seals) . As it said 'further work required' I rang them to discuss. I explained I was interested in buying but obviously wouldn't if there was a big gearbox problem. I specifically asked if the reset was the 'further work required' and would that cure the problem or would further work be required. She went away for a few minutes and then came back and said the reset would cure the problem. On that basis I bought the car with an appropriate allowance for the cost of all the works they had identified.
I took it in to have the gearbox fixed and it didn't work. They said gearbox has to be stripped and sensor replaced. Claimed the reset was just the first step in the process. Despite their message when you call saying 'all calls are recorded' they claim to not have the recording and therefore say there is nothing they can do about it. This G626 sensor is a known fault on these and from a conversation with an independent Audi specialist after I bought it, it was never going to work. They have done a number of them. Obviously I would not have bought the car with a potential major gearbox problem. I'd have asked the vendor to spend the £300 and see if it fixed it. The cheapest quote I have had to fix it is £2500. I think Audi's price was over 6000
They missed a number of things on the health check. Leaking rocker cover gaskets (which they had replaced one side 5/21 at 94520 miles the other side 2/20 at 90740), oil leak from vacuum pump, leaking oil cooler and sump gasket (resealed by them previously with what looks like bathroom sealant.), various bushes split in front suspension. They had replaced the leaking diff seals in July 2020.13 months and 4800 miles later they recorded on the MOT they were leaking again. The diff seals failed within their 2 year warranty period. The audi specialist tells me they have done a number of diff seals and now they always rebuild the drive shafts at the same time otherwise in their experience the seals always fail again. Given they failed less than 4800 miles after they were replaced the wear in the drive shafts should have been apparent even if the dealerships experience didn't tell them to overhaul the shafts.
There are other faults but I wouldn't have expected the dealership to find those as part of a health check.
Apart from the quality of work they have done, to my mind they had a duty of care in their advice and have failed to fulfil that.
If I understand correctly, you did not buy the car from the dealer - which essentially absolves the dealer of almost all of his liabilities.
What you seem to have an issue with, is potentially an insufficient or poor diagnosis ( in your opinion) and other faults that were either not noticed, or not resolved. Perhaps that would amount to a lack of duty of care?
So how would you prove that the diagnostic process was insufficient?
Manufacturers insist that dealers follow a logical process when it comes to fault identification. The gearbox fault is likely to give a first response as to change the sensor ( there may be evidence of this working in the past) it may then have other steps which might include changing oil, the gearbox ecu or the complete gearbox. But if the gearbox presents as working, you can't really suggest that it needs replacing as the first option.
Is asking a technician in an official Audi dealer to inspect and sign off a car as good, the same as asking a surveyor to sign off a house as also good (i.e. no rot or subsidence). Can you even sue a surveyor if they don't identify those faults?
Did you pay for the diagnostic?
If not I really think you are wasting your time.
What you seem to have an issue with, is potentially an insufficient or poor diagnosis ( in your opinion) and other faults that were either not noticed, or not resolved. Perhaps that would amount to a lack of duty of care?
So how would you prove that the diagnostic process was insufficient?
Manufacturers insist that dealers follow a logical process when it comes to fault identification. The gearbox fault is likely to give a first response as to change the sensor ( there may be evidence of this working in the past) it may then have other steps which might include changing oil, the gearbox ecu or the complete gearbox. But if the gearbox presents as working, you can't really suggest that it needs replacing as the first option.
Is asking a technician in an official Audi dealer to inspect and sign off a car as good, the same as asking a surveyor to sign off a house as also good (i.e. no rot or subsidence). Can you even sue a surveyor if they don't identify those faults?
Did you pay for the diagnostic?
If not I really think you are wasting your time.
davidcw58 said:
Litigation is an emotional and time consuming path and I have better things to do on both counts. HOWEVER, I have been very calm and reasonable and they haven't made a proper effort to resolve it so they have pissed me off. The claim will now be in excess of £5000 but less than £10,000. The scope of my original claim was scaled down to make it easier to settle but as they don't want to pay anything or do any rectification works I plan to include all the works, time, car hire, travel, and anything else legitimate.
I could do what used to be called the small claims procedure but I think I need a bit of advice beforehand.
A full claim rather than a small claims procedure will involve more costs for both them and me but might encourage them to settle
Can you scale a claim down to fit it into "small claim" territory? Not sure you can. I could do what used to be called the small claims procedure but I think I need a bit of advice beforehand.
A full claim rather than a small claims procedure will involve more costs for both them and me but might encourage them to settle
I would think that a car manufacturer would want to have it on the multitrack to expose you to costs. Especially when the case has technical elements, most judges will accept that Multitrack is the correct place to hear the case to allow for expert witness. Making it much great risk for you than them.
If you want to claim for morals you want a priest/ Rabi/ imam not solicitor :P
Edited by nikaiyo2 on Monday 5th February 16:27
davidcw58 said:
Very easy to run up fees fast.
A bit like buying an old used performance cardavidcw58 said:
I'm usually pretty pragmatic but in this case I feel there is a principle.
Then you aren't being very pragmaticdavidcw58 said:
Maybe I won't win but i'm prepared to spend some money if I have to and take the chance.
You wont but it's your money davidcw58 said:
They probably think its quite an old Audi and if that's all he can afford to buy he wont pursue it.
No, they think if he can't afford to fix it he shouldn't buy it.davidcw58 said:
They are wrong.
Probably notdavidcw58 said:
Very easy to run up fees fast. I'm usually pretty pragmatic but in this case I feel there is a principle. Maybe I won't win but i'm prepared to spend some money if I have to and take the chance. They probably think its quite an old Audi and if that's all he can afford to buy he wont pursue it. They are wrong.
You want to sue Audi for a health check and fault investigation that you didn't commission or pay for?You also took their word that a reset would cure it as gospel, despite such claims being brave at best without further investigation?
I always find it odd when people say they're willing to spend money on a court case that they might not win. They are usually either rich, stupid or both.
I hope you're just rich.
davidcw58 said:
Very easy to run up fees fast. I'm usually pretty pragmatic but in this case I feel there is a principle. Maybe I won't win but i'm prepared to spend some money if I have to and take the chance. They probably think its quite an old Audi and if that's all he can afford to buy he wont pursue it. They are wrong.
The best legal advice I have ever heard is 'Don't sue on a point of principle'.My first question is:
What did your own pre-purchase inspection tell you?
As I understand from your opening post you bought the car from the deceased person's family?
If you are relying on the vendor's inspection you will have more difficulty in proving anything. Your situation is that you bought a car with some faults that may, or may not, have been misdescribed to you.
The Audi dealer had no contract with you if you did not commission, and pay for, the pre-sales inspection. If this is the case what exactly is your legal complaint?
davidcw58 said:
lol well sometimes businesses need a bit of a punch on the nose. Same as people ! :-)
Small claims case outcomes between individuals can be quite random, as we've seen in threads on here, so you never know!The trouble in this case is the Audi dealer will have the resouces to robustly defend it.
Hammersia said:
davidcw58 said:
Litigation is an emotional and time consuming path and I have better things to do on both counts. HOWEVER, I have been very calm and reasonable and they haven't made a proper effort to resolve it so they have pissed me off. The claim will now be in excess of £5000 but less than £10,000. The scope of my original claim was scaled down to make it easier to settle but as they don't want to pay anything or do any rectification works I plan to include all the works, time, car hire, travel, and anything else legitimate.
I could do what used to be called the small claims procedure but I think I need a bit of advice beforehand.
A full claim rather than a small claims procedure will involve more costs for both them and me but might encourage them to settle
It's still called the small claims procedure.I could do what used to be called the small claims procedure but I think I need a bit of advice beforehand.
A full claim rather than a small claims procedure will involve more costs for both them and me but might encourage them to settle
If you're getting nowhere then just go to money claims online and file a claim, fees scale according to value of the claim but should be around £100. Keep it factual as per your description above. Nothing to lose imho.
Follow a Small Claims - or just give up, you're going to have a big hassle otherwise.
Muzzer79 said:
davidcw58 said:
Very easy to run up fees fast. I'm usually pretty pragmatic but in this case I feel there is a principle. Maybe I won't win but i'm prepared to spend some money if I have to and take the chance. They probably think its quite an old Audi and if that's all he can afford to buy he wont pursue it. They are wrong.
You want to sue Audi for a health check and fault investigation that you didn't commission or pay for?You also took their word that a reset would cure it as gospel, despite such claims being brave at best without further investigation?
I always find it odd when people say they're willing to spend money on a court case that they might not win. They are usually either rich, stupid or both.
I hope you're just rich.
Recalcitrant said:
You will just throw money down the drain here, the Audi dealer will get a proper brief on the case and they'll tear your claim to pieces.
Or they might not bother to show up at court (small claims) and OP wins by default. It costs very little to have a go, just get your ducks in a row and keep calm..When I had the misfortune to entrust my car to an incompetent dealer two years ago, I paid by CC, and when it was subsequently revealed how useless they'd been, I was able to recover my money using Section 75.
In this case I don't think I'd risk ending up with huge solicitor's bill.
davidcw58 said:
superlightr said:
oooo yummy ! - used to love hearing that phrase when I was a solicitor.
lol well sometimes businesses need a bit of a punch on the nose. Same as people ! :-)Audi won't take it personally or give a f
k...they'll just send it to their legal dept rinse you of a few grand and just crack onSwallow the pride, fix the car and carry on with life
An old smoker like that has wallet hoover written all over it
Lot of people in here think this is crown court or something. Given the sums involved, it's a Money claim online matter. The guy can lodge a claim for a sliding % of his claim, it's not very expensive. Three thngs happen, he either wins if they admit it, they contest it & you have to go & sit in front of a judge & from there they either turn up or dont'. If they don't, you win by default. If they do, the judge listens to both sides & comes to a decision.
And the third thing is you win & have to get the money out of them, which isn't a given & can end up with baillifs, court enforcement guys or similar.
Whether it's worth bopthering with is a separate matter. I would expect Audi to just boot it out to legal who'll file a boiler plate denial & you end up in the judges office, arguing the toss but the idea they're going to instruct Runpole is hilarious.
And the third thing is you win & have to get the money out of them, which isn't a given & can end up with baillifs, court enforcement guys or similar.
Whether it's worth bopthering with is a separate matter. I would expect Audi to just boot it out to legal who'll file a boiler plate denial & you end up in the judges office, arguing the toss but the idea they're going to instruct Runpole is hilarious.
OP, you’ve had lots of good advice on here. Lots of expert input needed, then decent solicitor needed. I’d say you’d need 10k to run this to trial and then 5000 for that. Minimum. You won’t get costs back.
And so it will cost you money even if you win. And it’s an if.
Complete waste of your time. Fine if you are massively wealthy … but parking outside the dealers with a sign detailing to woes may be more fun.
And so it will cost you money even if you win. And it’s an if.
Complete waste of your time. Fine if you are massively wealthy … but parking outside the dealers with a sign detailing to woes may be more fun.
President Merkin said:
Lot of people in here think this is crown court or something. Given the sums involved, it's a Money claim online matter. The guy can lodge a claim for a sliding % of his claim, it's not very expensive. Three thngs happen, he either wins if they admit it, they contest it & you have to go & sit in front of a judge & from there they either turn up or dont'. If they don't, you win by default. If they do, the judge listens to both sides & comes to a decision.
And the third thing is you win & have to get the money out of them, which isn't a given & can end up with baillifs, court enforcement guys or similar.
Whether it's worth bopthering with is a separate matter. I would expect Audi to just boot it out to legal who'll file a boiler plate denial & you end up in the judges office, arguing the toss but the idea they're going to instruct Runpole is hilarious.
You can do that. But this guy doesn’t even know his cause of action, so it’s not going anywhere without help… And the third thing is you win & have to get the money out of them, which isn't a given & can end up with baillifs, court enforcement guys or similar.
Whether it's worth bopthering with is a separate matter. I would expect Audi to just boot it out to legal who'll file a boiler plate denial & you end up in the judges office, arguing the toss but the idea they're going to instruct Runpole is hilarious.
KungFuPanda said:
[The fact that it will be allocated to the Small Claims Track means that costs will not be recoverable whether you succeed or not. So if you hire solicitors to present you case, be ready to throw a few grand down the pan for legal fees which you’ll never get back.
Indeed, and the small claims process is designed to be 'user-friendly', with the judge making allowances for the fact the claimant is not a legal pro. I won a case against a determined adversary (took four hearings) and it's simply a case of evidence and facts, not TV-courtroom-drama cleverness. I was awarded the full claim plus interest and costs (travel and parking).Edited by Simpo Two on Monday 5th February 18:23
Two hopes, etc...
There's a mahoosive and long-running thread here on B8 S4's. Great cars (Mine's coming up to it's 9th birthday this year) - but the DSG box on early cars is a weak spot, and regular DSG oil changes are essential (every 35-40K - and they're NOT automatically done).
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Sorry, but buying a 2009 S4 with a known gearbox fault is monumentally rash.
There's a mahoosive and long-running thread here on B8 S4's. Great cars (Mine's coming up to it's 9th birthday this year) - but the DSG box on early cars is a weak spot, and regular DSG oil changes are essential (every 35-40K - and they're NOT automatically done).
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Sorry, but buying a 2009 S4 with a known gearbox fault is monumentally rash.
Edited by silentbrown on Monday 5th February 17:51
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