Advice on dispute with used car dealer
Discussion
vaud said:
It has all the symptoms of needing a new battery...
A battery is one possibility, depending on what flavour of 'failing to start' is observed.Personally, I would not be rushing to spend £100 on a new battery without running some tests.
Modern cars can have more complicated charging systems than in the old days.
Particularly stop/start, but many other post 2005 cars.
Some cars will throw errors if the battery is changed.
OTOH, many post 2010 cars are still simple constant voltage alternators.
RTFM and get model-specific advice perhaps.
If the battery is dying I would expect codes to be stored in the ECU, but I can't claim knowledge of every make and model.
Mrs.Chips bought a brand new Ford Ka with stop-start. She used it primarily for the 4 mile round commute to and from work. After a while, the stop-start stopped working. When it went in for its service we told them about the lack of stop-start. Their response was, due to the short commute the battery isn’t charging enough to activate stop-start. As they are the “experts” we accepted it. However, when on holiday, with 150-200 mile drives, the stop-start still doesn’t work!
I appreciate that in modern cars, the battery can have a disproportionate impact on some of the car’s systems, but I also think that some car dealers/mechanics can talk b
ks and are fluent in bullst!
Get the car checked out by an independent garage that you trust OP and then you will have a better idea of whether you have a case or not.
I appreciate that in modern cars, the battery can have a disproportionate impact on some of the car’s systems, but I also think that some car dealers/mechanics can talk b
ks and are fluent in bullst! Get the car checked out by an independent garage that you trust OP and then you will have a better idea of whether you have a case or not.
Thanks for all the replies, there's a lot to respond to here.
Regarding the car's usage, it was mostly doing a weekly 200 mile trip, not too many short journeys at all. I did wonder about the battery so got a free check at Kwik Fit which showed it was healthy. Of course that doesn't mean the connections are all good but nothing looks too heavily corroded (the battery is in the boot so nice and clean). For what it's worth the bloke who did that check reckoned these cars are susceptible to ECU hardware faults so that could be a possibility. I should reiterate this is intermittent, it has been absolutely fine with no warning lights and no issues for the last few days but could do it again at any moment so we can't really trust the car at all.
We are considering just getting it diagnosed and fixed but don't want to leave ourselves in a position where the seller can say we've gone off-script and the car was buggered up by another garage.
As I said before, the car had other faults which their checks missed and from our perspective it seems difficult to accept the idea that they can say the fault cannot have been present when sold if they have no idea what the fault actually is and are not willing to diagnose it.
The problem is they are just stonewalling us and repeating that line about the pre-sale checks. How do we go about making our counter-argument in that situation? Is the small claims court our only option?
Regarding the car's usage, it was mostly doing a weekly 200 mile trip, not too many short journeys at all. I did wonder about the battery so got a free check at Kwik Fit which showed it was healthy. Of course that doesn't mean the connections are all good but nothing looks too heavily corroded (the battery is in the boot so nice and clean). For what it's worth the bloke who did that check reckoned these cars are susceptible to ECU hardware faults so that could be a possibility. I should reiterate this is intermittent, it has been absolutely fine with no warning lights and no issues for the last few days but could do it again at any moment so we can't really trust the car at all.
We are considering just getting it diagnosed and fixed but don't want to leave ourselves in a position where the seller can say we've gone off-script and the car was buggered up by another garage.
As I said before, the car had other faults which their checks missed and from our perspective it seems difficult to accept the idea that they can say the fault cannot have been present when sold if they have no idea what the fault actually is and are not willing to diagnose it.
The problem is they are just stonewalling us and repeating that line about the pre-sale checks. How do we go about making our counter-argument in that situation? Is the small claims court our only option?
With some cars, stop/start or otherwise, battery charging can be messed about with to wring the last mpg out of it.
Some cars mostly only charge the battery under engine braking!
Too many short runs, or only being used once a week, plus a battery that's no longer new, can result in problems.
If you're not prepared to take it to local garage or have a mobile auto elecrics guru have a look at it, you could consider getting a code reader and checking for fault codes yourself.
But personally I would read around the specific problems you are seeing, on forums etc specific to that car,
Because people are suggesting things from their experience of random other makes and models.
Diagnosing electrics etc over the internet is difficult and subject to error at the best of times.
If you choose not to share details, we're a bit in the dark, but I can understand the need to keep your head down.
Intermittent faults are the worst.
But if it's gone into limp mode, I would expect some fault codes to be stored.
If you want to hear that it's all the dealer's problem, then you can find people to tell you that if you look hard enough on the internet.
However these wannabe Esther Rantzen acts won't actually get you a quick or effective solution if the dealer stonewalls you.
The Consumer Rights Act is much easier to enforce if something 'breaks' properly.
If a conrod comes out of the side of the block, you know what's wrong and you know there was a latent defect a few months ago unless you've been racing.That's the kind of major carnage the CRA is supposed to protect us from, it's not really about minor everyday 'old car' problems.
Is there any possibility of a reasonable compromise, ask the dealer to read the OBD for error codes and go from there?
Every symptom mentioned is consistent with a failing crank position sensor. That's a <£20 part for many cars..
However it could be dozens of other things
To be clear about symptoms, 'rev counter going potty' (I paraphrase), is that the engine is running at a steady speed and the rev counter needle is indicating random wrong answers, or the engine physically racing or what?
Top Tip, check your breakdown cover, because it can be down to you to physically return the car
Some cars mostly only charge the battery under engine braking!
Too many short runs, or only being used once a week, plus a battery that's no longer new, can result in problems.
If you're not prepared to take it to local garage or have a mobile auto elecrics guru have a look at it, you could consider getting a code reader and checking for fault codes yourself.
But personally I would read around the specific problems you are seeing, on forums etc specific to that car,
Because people are suggesting things from their experience of random other makes and models.
Diagnosing electrics etc over the internet is difficult and subject to error at the best of times.
If you choose not to share details, we're a bit in the dark, but I can understand the need to keep your head down.
Intermittent faults are the worst.
But if it's gone into limp mode, I would expect some fault codes to be stored.
If you want to hear that it's all the dealer's problem, then you can find people to tell you that if you look hard enough on the internet.
However these wannabe Esther Rantzen acts won't actually get you a quick or effective solution if the dealer stonewalls you.
The Consumer Rights Act is much easier to enforce if something 'breaks' properly.
If a conrod comes out of the side of the block, you know what's wrong and you know there was a latent defect a few months ago unless you've been racing.That's the kind of major carnage the CRA is supposed to protect us from, it's not really about minor everyday 'old car' problems.
Is there any possibility of a reasonable compromise, ask the dealer to read the OBD for error codes and go from there?
Every symptom mentioned is consistent with a failing crank position sensor. That's a <£20 part for many cars..
However it could be dozens of other things
To be clear about symptoms, 'rev counter going potty' (I paraphrase), is that the engine is running at a steady speed and the rev counter needle is indicating random wrong answers, or the engine physically racing or what?
Top Tip, check your breakdown cover, because it can be down to you to physically return the car
Mr.Chips said:
Mrs.Chips bought a brand new Ford Ka with stop-start. She used it primarily for the 4 mile round commute to and from work. After a while, the stop-start stopped working. When it went in for its service we told them about the lack of stop-start. Their response was, due to the short commute the battery isn’t charging enough to activate stop-start. As they are the “experts” we accepted it. However, when on holiday, with 150-200 mile drives, the stop-start still doesn’t work!
I appreciate that in modern cars, the battery can have a disproportionate impact on some of the car’s systems, but I also think that some car dealers/mechanics can talk bks and are fluent in bullst!
Get the car checked out by an independent garage that you trust OP and then you will have a better idea of whether you have a case or not.
Not sure how it works on a Ford, but on a BMW (and Mini) is that once the Stop/Start system decides that the battery is too low for the Stop/Start system to operate effectively, it will stop using it. However, it will not simply re-engage if you put some miles on the car, it needs to see the improved state as a reliable level and it will take some re starts under normal conditions before it is happy. Which is why replacing batteries in Stop/Start vehicles needs the system to be reset. There is a lot to the system - the seat belts being latched, the position of the HVAC, the brake switch, the electrical load, the power steering.... I appreciate that in modern cars, the battery can have a disproportionate impact on some of the car’s systems, but I also think that some car dealers/mechanics can talk b
ks and are fluent in bullst! Get the car checked out by an independent garage that you trust OP and then you will have a better idea of whether you have a case or not.
Legacywr said:
To start with I’d put a new battery on it.
So would I or take it to Kwik fit or Halfords and get them to test it foc.What's the age of the existing battery - is there a code you can use to date it or is it looking like it's the original going by labelling and the make of car?
Unreal said:
So would I or take it to Kwik fit or Halfords and get them to test it foc.
What's the age of the existing battery - is there a code you can use to date it or is it looking like it's the original going by labelling and the make of car?
What's the age of the existing battery - is there a code you can use to date it or is it looking like it's the original going by labelling and the make of car?
T0MMY said:
I did wonder about the battery so got a free check at Kwik Fit which showed it was healthy. Of course that doesn't mean the connections are all good but nothing looks too heavily corroded (the battery is in the boot so nice and clean).
vaud said:
Unreal said:
So would I or take it to Kwik fit or Halfords and get them to test it foc.
What's the age of the existing battery - is there a code you can use to date it or is it looking like it's the original going by labelling and the make of car?
What's the age of the existing battery - is there a code you can use to date it or is it looking like it's the original going by labelling and the make of car?
T0MMY said:
I did wonder about the battery so got a free check at Kwik Fit which showed it was healthy. Of course that doesn't mean the connections are all good but nothing looks too heavily corroded (the battery is in the boot so nice and clean).
Do you know anyone with a code reader?
I would think you need to know what the fault is before you can go down the court route.
"Your Honour, my car is faulty!"
"What's wrong with it?"
"Don't know, mate"
I would also think that if the dealer has done all the checks that they claimed to, and recorded these checks, then they're probably covered. However, it depends what the actual fault is and what checks they did.
Find out what the fault is, then you can properly assess your options. Code reader to start with, new battery or take it to a garage.
"Your Honour, my car is faulty!"
"What's wrong with it?"
"Don't know, mate"
I would also think that if the dealer has done all the checks that they claimed to, and recorded these checks, then they're probably covered. However, it depends what the actual fault is and what checks they did.
Find out what the fault is, then you can properly assess your options. Code reader to start with, new battery or take it to a garage.
vaud said:
Unreal said:
So would I or take it to Kwik fit or Halfords and get them to test it foc.
What's the age of the existing battery - is there a code you can use to date it or is it looking like it's the original going by labelling and the make of car?
What's the age of the existing battery - is there a code you can use to date it or is it looking like it's the original going by labelling and the make of car?
T0MMY said:
I did wonder about the battery so got a free check at Kwik Fit which showed it was healthy. Of course that doesn't mean the connections are all good but nothing looks too heavily corroded (the battery is in the boot so nice and clean).
Fitted a new, original spec battery, sorted the problem.
Tiglon said:
I would think you need to know what the fault is before you can go down the court route.
"Your Honour, my car is faulty!"
"What's wrong with it?"
"Don't know, mate"
I would also think that if the dealer has done all the checks that they claimed to, and recorded these checks, then they're probably covered. However, it depends what the actual fault is and what checks they did.
Find out what the fault is, then you can properly assess your options. Code reader to start with, new battery or take it to a garage.
+1"Your Honour, my car is faulty!"
"What's wrong with it?"
"Don't know, mate"
I would also think that if the dealer has done all the checks that they claimed to, and recorded these checks, then they're probably covered. However, it depends what the actual fault is and what checks they did.
Find out what the fault is, then you can properly assess your options. Code reader to start with, new battery or take it to a garage.
Get or borrow a code reader OP, or take it to a garage for investigation.
As they're ignoring you, you need to find out what the problem is before presenting them with a proposed way forward. If it turns out to be a relatively cheap fix, just get it done and move on
The OP says 'failing to start'.
If it does lots of cranking at a reasonable rate of turning, there's not much wrong with the battery?
If it cranks for a few seconds then cranks slower, possibly it's the battery.
Once the engine is running, I've not known a weak battery make the rev counter go 'haywire'.
But, I am all for new experieinces!
I had a BMW where letting the battery get a bit low could make lights flash on the dash, until you stopped the engine and re-started it, but that was a bike, from last century.
The problem is, cars vary a lot.
You can even have two cars look like the same model, but they've got different software in them.
Come to that, I had a car with a different brand of ECU from what the manual told me to expect!
If I was trying to get the car fixed, I would go to a local garage with a good rep for electrical/ECU stuff.
If I was trying to prove the dealer had sold me a lemon, I would go to an electronics place accredited by Bosch or whoever made the ECU and get them to read its tealeaves. This might get the car fxed, or it might prove it had a long history of problems. If there's a marque specialist, they might be a good choice.
You need to take positive steps to either fix the car or prove it has a substantial long term problem.
The crux of the matter is, problems like a duff battery are 'service items' not latent faults present at the time of sale.
There are tons of other problems which could be read the same way, like say water in a connector.
There are less faults I can think of which would be present at sale, dormant for 5 months, then cause the issues observed.
Other than problems like 'it is a Land Rover' of course...
You could simply take the car back to the dealer, but if there is a fault which is deemed to have been there all the time, he is allowed a chance to fix it.
If there is a fault which is a 'service item' then you might get charged for fixing it..
One possibility is that the dealer will say 'battery' charge you £250, clear the error codes and then the car might be OK for a month or two.
It might be worth talking to the CAB about the nuances of how the game is played.
If you paid a deposit by credit card, talk to the card co.
These problems happen with old cars, that is why people spend loads of money on newer cars and warranties.
The dealer is obliged to sell you car of suitable quality for the price point, he's not obliged to sell you an 'as new' car for banger money.
Time may be of the essence, some people say you must return the car within 6 months, not just report a 'problem'.
If it does lots of cranking at a reasonable rate of turning, there's not much wrong with the battery?
If it cranks for a few seconds then cranks slower, possibly it's the battery.
Once the engine is running, I've not known a weak battery make the rev counter go 'haywire'.
But, I am all for new experieinces!
I had a BMW where letting the battery get a bit low could make lights flash on the dash, until you stopped the engine and re-started it, but that was a bike, from last century.
The problem is, cars vary a lot.
You can even have two cars look like the same model, but they've got different software in them.
Come to that, I had a car with a different brand of ECU from what the manual told me to expect!
If I was trying to get the car fixed, I would go to a local garage with a good rep for electrical/ECU stuff.
If I was trying to prove the dealer had sold me a lemon, I would go to an electronics place accredited by Bosch or whoever made the ECU and get them to read its tealeaves. This might get the car fxed, or it might prove it had a long history of problems. If there's a marque specialist, they might be a good choice.
You need to take positive steps to either fix the car or prove it has a substantial long term problem.
The crux of the matter is, problems like a duff battery are 'service items' not latent faults present at the time of sale.
There are tons of other problems which could be read the same way, like say water in a connector.
There are less faults I can think of which would be present at sale, dormant for 5 months, then cause the issues observed.
Other than problems like 'it is a Land Rover' of course...
You could simply take the car back to the dealer, but if there is a fault which is deemed to have been there all the time, he is allowed a chance to fix it.
If there is a fault which is a 'service item' then you might get charged for fixing it..
One possibility is that the dealer will say 'battery' charge you £250, clear the error codes and then the car might be OK for a month or two.
It might be worth talking to the CAB about the nuances of how the game is played.
If you paid a deposit by credit card, talk to the card co.
These problems happen with old cars, that is why people spend loads of money on newer cars and warranties.
The dealer is obliged to sell you car of suitable quality for the price point, he's not obliged to sell you an 'as new' car for banger money.
Time may be of the essence, some people say you must return the car within 6 months, not just report a 'problem'.
Personally I’d take the car to a specialist and have the fault diagnosed.
Hopefully it will be something straightforward and easily fixed.
Either way it will give you a better case of whether it was likely to be a pre existing fault… maybe even evidence a fault has been logged and reset before.
If no response from the dealer then I’d involve Trading Standards.
Hopefully it will be something straightforward and easily fixed.
Either way it will give you a better case of whether it was likely to be a pre existing fault… maybe even evidence a fault has been logged and reset before.
If no response from the dealer then I’d involve Trading Standards.
Robertb said:
Personally I’d take the car to a specialist and have the fault diagnosed.
Hopefully it will be something straightforward and easily fixed.
Either way it will give you a better case of whether it was likely to be a pre existing fault… maybe even evidence a fault has been logged and reset before.
If no response from the dealer then I’d involve Trading Standards.
Once erased that’s it, gone and done.Hopefully it will be something straightforward and easily fixed.
Either way it will give you a better case of whether it was likely to be a pre existing fault… maybe even evidence a fault has been logged and reset before.
If no response from the dealer then I’d involve Trading Standards.
If you have a fault code, clear it and it doesn’t come on in 10 miles then chances are it’s never coming back. There are some faults that may take a 150 miles or so to come back but normally they come back pretty quickly. So it’s very unlikely this fault was there at time of purchase.
Mr.Chips said:
Mrs.Chips bought a brand new Ford Ka with stop-start. She used it primarily for the 4 mile round commute to and from work. After a while, the stop-start stopped working. When it went in for its service we told them about the lack of stop-start. Their response was, due to the short commute the battery isn’t charging enough to activate stop-start. As they are the “experts” we accepted it. However, when on holiday, with 150-200 mile drives, the stop-start still doesn’t work!
I appreciate that in modern cars, the battery can have a disproportionate impact on some of the car’s systems, but I also think that some car dealers/mechanics can talk bks and are fluent in bullst!
Get the car checked out by an independent garage that you trust OP and then you will have a better idea of whether you have a case or not.
I think it’s a safe bet that if you (had instead) said that the stop start wasn’t working at all after a 100mile drive and not just short runs on the first visit, their response would have been different as that indicates a deeper fault.I appreciate that in modern cars, the battery can have a disproportionate impact on some of the car’s systems, but I also think that some car dealers/mechanics can talk b
ks and are fluent in bullst! Get the car checked out by an independent garage that you trust OP and then you will have a better idea of whether you have a case or not.
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