Advice on dispute with used car dealer
Discussion
Hol said:
You’re spinning your wheels until you identify which ‘part’ has failed after 150 days, when the first fault code appeared.
Only then, can you have a proper debate with the dealer over whether the failure was present on day One, (or if it only started in day 150).
Dates will be in the ECU so its a total none starter. To pardon the pun.Only then, can you have a proper debate with the dealer over whether the failure was present on day One, (or if it only started in day 150).
This isn't a case of us having 3 years of trouble free motoring then asking for a full refund because we've noticed the tyres have worn down after 50,000 miles. The car has had 6 tangible faults in less than 5 months, 3 of which are intermittent enough that we might easily have not picked them up within the 90 day warranty, none of which were picked up in their pre-sale checks and in fact 1 of which was literally caused by their preparation of the car. It's fair to say their checks aren't great and the car is something of a lemon.
Anyway, it sounds like our best course of action is to get the fault diagnosed independently which is what we assumed but I thought I'd ask the question.
I was tempted to just put a new battery on it but with it being so intermittent I'm not sure she'd have much confidence in the car even if it did seem fine at first. I'm also not sure if the array of symptoms could really all come from a faulty battery but here's a more complete timeline:
Maybe 5 or 6 weeks ago we got in the car, started it, pulled away and it immediately flashed up various warning messages (number plate bulb, front collision assist, ABS fault and others I think), drove for a few hundred metres then lost power (limp mode I assumed). We stopped, turned it off and on again and it was all fine. At no point did the EML come on during this. I just spoke to my partner and she said also for a few weeks before this it had been occasionally flashing up collision warning unavailable or showing spurious distance warnings which she'd just put down to dirt on the sensor given the gritted roads etc.
I checked the number plate bulb and it was indeed out so that was a genuine warning, I replaced the bulb and the car then showed no issues for over a week and a couple of hundred miles so I thought possibly the bulb going had for some reason caused the ECU to throw up all those other errors. She then drove the car to her office in Oxford but when leaving at the end of the day the EML came on amber. The car drove fine and she made it home but the light stayed on. I read the fault codes with a cheapo ELM 327 I had and P0152 came up, O2 sensor high voltage, but also P00aa and B2aaa which I googled somewhere and may come up because the reader can't actually read the fault codes properly. I checked the O2 sensor wiring but didn't remove it and cleared the codes (maybe I shouldn't have done!) which did turn off the EML. I started the car and it ran ok and didn't reproduce the EML or P0152 but the other 2 codes remained (and have done throughout).
The next day I started the car and it immediately flashed up similar warnings to before plus a new one about reduced steering assistance and a Service ESC message. The engine was idling steadily but the rev counter was bouncing up and down between 0 and 4,000 or so regardless of what I did with the throttle. It then settled on the "stop" position despite the engine still idling. I turned the car off but the dash and everything stayed on so I turned it on and off again and it did actually turn off this time. I then tried starting it again and it did nothing, didn't even turn over the starter, no weak starting sound.
The day after I checked the battery with a multimeter, it showed 12.17 so a bit low but not terminal (I hadn't charged it or anything). I fiddled around a bit with the battery wiring to check for corrosion, checked the fuses but didn't do a great deal however the car then started and ran perfectly with no apparent issues at all. The battery voltage was over 14 when it was running so it is charging and I then drove it to Kwik Fit to get a proper battery check which showed it to be healthy. We've since driven it one more time a short way and it's absolutely fine, the EML never came back on and no repeat of the P0152 fault code but I highly doubt this is just due to me moving the wiring around a bit as I didn't even disconnect anything. I strongly suspect the issues will reoccur and understandably my partner is in no mood to drive the car all the way to her Oxford office on the assumption she'll actually make it home again.
One more thing I do remember is that a few months ago we pulled into a petrol station with an indicator on and the indicator sound seemed to take over the android auto spotify that was playing so we got a very distorted quiet radio station and a weird sort of distorted electronic indicator relay clicking sound over the speakers (not sure how else to describe it!). It was very odd and has never happened again but obviously now I wish we'd reported it to the dealer as it was within the warranty period and could possibly be related to whatever electrical issues the car has.
Anyway, it sounds like our best course of action is to get the fault diagnosed independently which is what we assumed but I thought I'd ask the question.
I was tempted to just put a new battery on it but with it being so intermittent I'm not sure she'd have much confidence in the car even if it did seem fine at first. I'm also not sure if the array of symptoms could really all come from a faulty battery but here's a more complete timeline:
Maybe 5 or 6 weeks ago we got in the car, started it, pulled away and it immediately flashed up various warning messages (number plate bulb, front collision assist, ABS fault and others I think), drove for a few hundred metres then lost power (limp mode I assumed). We stopped, turned it off and on again and it was all fine. At no point did the EML come on during this. I just spoke to my partner and she said also for a few weeks before this it had been occasionally flashing up collision warning unavailable or showing spurious distance warnings which she'd just put down to dirt on the sensor given the gritted roads etc.
I checked the number plate bulb and it was indeed out so that was a genuine warning, I replaced the bulb and the car then showed no issues for over a week and a couple of hundred miles so I thought possibly the bulb going had for some reason caused the ECU to throw up all those other errors. She then drove the car to her office in Oxford but when leaving at the end of the day the EML came on amber. The car drove fine and she made it home but the light stayed on. I read the fault codes with a cheapo ELM 327 I had and P0152 came up, O2 sensor high voltage, but also P00aa and B2aaa which I googled somewhere and may come up because the reader can't actually read the fault codes properly. I checked the O2 sensor wiring but didn't remove it and cleared the codes (maybe I shouldn't have done!) which did turn off the EML. I started the car and it ran ok and didn't reproduce the EML or P0152 but the other 2 codes remained (and have done throughout).
The next day I started the car and it immediately flashed up similar warnings to before plus a new one about reduced steering assistance and a Service ESC message. The engine was idling steadily but the rev counter was bouncing up and down between 0 and 4,000 or so regardless of what I did with the throttle. It then settled on the "stop" position despite the engine still idling. I turned the car off but the dash and everything stayed on so I turned it on and off again and it did actually turn off this time. I then tried starting it again and it did nothing, didn't even turn over the starter, no weak starting sound.
The day after I checked the battery with a multimeter, it showed 12.17 so a bit low but not terminal (I hadn't charged it or anything). I fiddled around a bit with the battery wiring to check for corrosion, checked the fuses but didn't do a great deal however the car then started and ran perfectly with no apparent issues at all. The battery voltage was over 14 when it was running so it is charging and I then drove it to Kwik Fit to get a proper battery check which showed it to be healthy. We've since driven it one more time a short way and it's absolutely fine, the EML never came back on and no repeat of the P0152 fault code but I highly doubt this is just due to me moving the wiring around a bit as I didn't even disconnect anything. I strongly suspect the issues will reoccur and understandably my partner is in no mood to drive the car all the way to her Oxford office on the assumption she'll actually make it home again.
One more thing I do remember is that a few months ago we pulled into a petrol station with an indicator on and the indicator sound seemed to take over the android auto spotify that was playing so we got a very distorted quiet radio station and a weird sort of distorted electronic indicator relay clicking sound over the speakers (not sure how else to describe it!). It was very odd and has never happened again but obviously now I wish we'd reported it to the dealer as it was within the warranty period and could possibly be related to whatever electrical issues the car has.
Edited by T0MMY on Wednesday 28th February 09:58
Edited by T0MMY on Wednesday 28th February 10:04
The car is a Vauxhall Astra 1.0 petrol, 2016. I have looked on various Astra forums but can't find any consensus on similar sort of symptoms, not that I've seen any threads with the full array that we seem to have.
I might use her car for work the rest of this week and see how I get on. At least if it lets me down the RAC can have a look at it for me!
I might use her car for work the rest of this week and see how I get on. At least if it lets me down the RAC can have a look at it for me!
mcpoot said:
You don't appear to understand how CRA2015 works. Fortunately the OP does,
But the dealer can say, we carried out a service, there were no fault codes stored, no warning lights and the customer was happy on the test drive. That meets there obligation to prove there were no faults at time of purchase.Just charge the battery with a battery charger & see what happens.
www.thebatteryshop.co.uk/car-battery-voltage-guide...
"12.00v to 12.35v* Seriously discharged battery, unacceptable for fitment to vehicle.
Action needed - recharge urgently.
However, this battery may not fully recover the battery *"
www.thebatteryshop.co.uk/car-battery-voltage-guide...
"12.00v to 12.35v* Seriously discharged battery, unacceptable for fitment to vehicle.
Action needed - recharge urgently.
However, this battery may not fully recover the battery *"
T0MMY said:
The car is a Vauxhall Astra 1.0 petrol, 2016.
Ask the dealer to look at it. If not satisfiedGet an independent report.
Ask the dealer to act on the independent report if legitimate faults are found..
If dealer refuses then get it mended yourself and take the dealer to Small Claims - all done via the internet (except the actual hearing obvs).
I have followed this procedure three times now with good result.
stevemcs said:
mcpoot said:
You don't appear to understand how CRA2015 works. Fortunately the OP does,
But the dealer can say, we carried out a service, there were no fault codes stored, no warning lights and the customer was happy on the test drive. That meets there obligation to prove there were no faults at time of purchase.paintman said:
Just charge the battery with a battery charger & see what happens.
www.thebatteryshop.co.uk/car-battery-voltage-guide...
"12.00v to 12.35v* Seriously discharged battery, unacceptable for fitment to vehicle.
Action needed - recharge urgently.
However, this battery may not fully recover the battery *"
Hmm, shop that sells batteries thinks that 12.34v is seriously discharged? 12.3V is 30% discharged according to other sourceswww.thebatteryshop.co.uk/car-battery-voltage-guide...
"12.00v to 12.35v* Seriously discharged battery, unacceptable for fitment to vehicle.
Action needed - recharge urgently.
However, this battery may not fully recover the battery *"
OutInTheShed said:
How much does it cost for a Vauxhall dealer to scan the car?
Are there any 'indy' Vauxhall specialists?
That's the trouble with 'ordinary' cars, if it was an Alfa or a BMW, there is a world of enthusiasts and specialists to help you.
I know, I was a bit surprised there even was a forum for Astras! Not sure on main dealer cost but the local garage I use seem pretty savvy and do it for £100 or so. They managed to diagnose the cause of a DPF fault with her last car that the main dealer missed completely.Are there any 'indy' Vauxhall specialists?
That's the trouble with 'ordinary' cars, if it was an Alfa or a BMW, there is a world of enthusiasts and specialists to help you.
stevemcs said:
But the dealer can say, we carried out a service, there were no fault codes stored, no warning lights and the customer was happy on the test drive. That meets there obligation to prove there were no faults at time of purchase.
Their checks presumably also covered such things as, "does the clutch MC bleed pressure until the car starts rolling forward even though you have your left foot to the floor", "is the geometry so far out its immediately obvious to a lay person with no interest in cars that it doesn't drive properly" and "do the tyres not hold air due to incorrectly fitted valves (bodged with PTFE tape) on two wheels from the new tyres we just put on it". These were all things we had to tell them about and get fixed so you can imagine I have little faith in their checks. Besides that, the idea that it's impossible for the root cause of a fault to have been present before the main symptoms appear is demonstrably untrue so why would we not pursue this given there's potential legal provision to do so?
popeyewhite said:
Ask the dealer to look at it. If not satisfied
Get an independent report.
Ask the dealer to act on the independent report if legitimate faults are found..
If dealer refuses then get it mended yourself and take the dealer to Small Claims - all done via the internet (except the actual hearing obvs).
I have followed this procedure three times now with good result.
Very helpful, thank you. This is the route it looks like we'll be taking with it.Get an independent report.
Ask the dealer to act on the independent report if legitimate faults are found..
If dealer refuses then get it mended yourself and take the dealer to Small Claims - all done via the internet (except the actual hearing obvs).
I have followed this procedure three times now with good result.
BertBert said:
paintman said:
Just charge the battery with a battery charger & see what happens.
www.thebatteryshop.co.uk/car-battery-voltage-guide...
"12.00v to 12.35v* Seriously discharged battery, unacceptable for fitment to vehicle.
Action needed - recharge urgently.
However, this battery may not fully recover the battery *"
Hmm, shop that sells batteries thinks that 12.34v is seriously discharged? 12.3V is 30% discharged according to other sourceswww.thebatteryshop.co.uk/car-battery-voltage-guide...
"12.00v to 12.35v* Seriously discharged battery, unacceptable for fitment to vehicle.
Action needed - recharge urgently.
However, this battery may not fully recover the battery *"
Just poking it with a voltmeter tells you very little reliably.
You either need to let it stand for at least an hour to get a resting voltage, or test it under charge or discharge.
12.34V could be nearly, fully charged but you've just started the car and the battery hasn't recovered, or it could be nearly flat but you were putting some charge in 5 minutes ago.
That's why people use proper laod testers, which test for volts under controlled circumstances. Some testers are more complex than that.
Many modern cars, you should RTFM before charging the battery, as they sense the current and volts at the battery (even when the car is switched off) and may throw errors if you 'confuse' them.
I'd expect a 'modern' car to tell me via the dash if it wanted a new battery, but some 2016 cars seem to be less 'modern' than some 2008 cars in this respect!
Should I assume the proper battery load tester Kwik Fit would have used is infallible and that the battery is indeed fine or could it still be faulty despite what they told me?
For what it's worth the car has never shown a battery warning light and the start/stop has never been disabled for any great length of time.
For what it's worth the car has never shown a battery warning light and the start/stop has never been disabled for any great length of time.
OutInTheShed said:
The voltage of a lead acid battery depends on its state of charge, and also the current in or out, and the recent history of charge/discharge.
Just poking it with a voltmeter tells you very little reliably.
You either need to let it stand for at least an hour to get a resting voltage, or test it under charge or discharge.
12.34V could be nearly, fully charged but you've just started the car and the battery hasn't recovered, or it could be nearly flat but you were putting some charge in 5 minutes ago.
T
This is correct. 12.6v / 12.7v at rest, after 30 mins , is 100% full. Doesn't mean its in tip top condition of course, but, when batteries fail they tend to rest at lower (or higher) voltages then plummet when asked to do anything.Just poking it with a voltmeter tells you very little reliably.
You either need to let it stand for at least an hour to get a resting voltage, or test it under charge or discharge.
12.34V could be nearly, fully charged but you've just started the car and the battery hasn't recovered, or it could be nearly flat but you were putting some charge in 5 minutes ago.
T
If you (OP) metered your battery at 12.7v after it had not been used for a while (used or charged) then it's prob ok. Not guaranteed, but probably. I'd be looking for bad earths.
It was 12.17 I measured it at, not 12.7 so that did seem low. I just nipped out and checked it again at 11.98 which really does seem low!
The slip of paper from the Bosch battery tester Kwik Fit used showed these figures:
Voltage 12.14 V
Rated 800 EN
Measured 545 EN
IR 4.76 Ohms
Cranking power 68%
State of charge 42%
Any thoughts? The guy who did it didn't bat an eyelid, said it was fine. I assume they are encouraged to say the opposite if they can!
The slip of paper from the Bosch battery tester Kwik Fit used showed these figures:
Voltage 12.14 V
Rated 800 EN
Measured 545 EN
IR 4.76 Ohms
Cranking power 68%
State of charge 42%
Any thoughts? The guy who did it didn't bat an eyelid, said it was fine. I assume they are encouraged to say the opposite if they can!
T0MMY said:
It was 12.17 I measured it at, not 12.7 so that did seem low. I just nipped out and checked it again at 11.98 which really does seem low!
The slip of paper from the Bosch battery tester Kwik Fit used showed these figures:
Voltage 12.14 V
Rated 800 EN
Measured 545 EN
IR 4.76 Ohms
Cranking power 68%
State of charge 42%
Any thoughts? The guy who did it didn't bat an eyelid, said it was fine. I assume they are encouraged to say the opposite if they can!
That seems to have good cranking power.The slip of paper from the Bosch battery tester Kwik Fit used showed these figures:
Voltage 12.14 V
Rated 800 EN
Measured 545 EN
IR 4.76 Ohms
Cranking power 68%
State of charge 42%
Any thoughts? The guy who did it didn't bat an eyelid, said it was fine. I assume they are encouraged to say the opposite if they can!
But the state of charge is low. That might just be because you've only done a few short journeys in the last few weeks.
You could charge the battery. But if you do that on the, RTFM and use a good quality charger which will turn off when the battery is full.
If you do it 'off car' you may need to reset things, you may get an error light because the car remembers the state of charge and gets 'annoyed' when anything changes. AIUI, different cars behave differently in this respect.
I don't think the battery is a big part of your problems, but a low battery is unlikely to help anything.
T0MMY said:
It was 12.17 I measured it at, not 12.7 so that did seem low. I just nipped out and checked it again at 11.98 which really does seem low!
The slip of paper from the Bosch battery tester Kwik Fit used showed these figures:
Voltage 12.14 V
Rated 800 EN
Measured 545 EN
IR 4.76 Ohms
Cranking power 68%
State of charge 42%
Any thoughts? The guy who did it didn't bat an eyelid, said it was fine. I assume they are encouraged to say the opposite if they can!
If it was 12.17 parked up, not used for a good 30 mins, and not charged either, then 12.14 = not good, 11.98v "really nearly flat"..The slip of paper from the Bosch battery tester Kwik Fit used showed these figures:
Voltage 12.14 V
Rated 800 EN
Measured 545 EN
IR 4.76 Ohms
Cranking power 68%
State of charge 42%
Any thoughts? The guy who did it didn't bat an eyelid, said it was fine. I assume they are encouraged to say the opposite if they can!
12.17 is bad enough, unless you have something draining it, but even a dashcam would not/should not take it down to that after 30 mins.
If you want to be sure, park it up, disconnect the live or earth from the battery. Meter it , note the voltage to make sure its over 12.6v (OR, put it on a charger overnight). Wait an hour, meter it again, report back. It should be 12.6v or there abouts after an hour (and it should stay there for weeks)
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