RE: Laser meters are inaccurate: BBC
Monday 12th September 2005
DodgyscopeBBC TV programme "Inside Out" has been testing a laser speed meter, and will broadcast this evening a film showing two laser speed meters pointing at the same vehicle showing markedly different speeds. The regional programme will air in London and BBC South West region this evening at 7:30pm.
Laser meters are inaccurate: BBC
TV show tonight condemns 'dodgyscopes'
Dodgyscope
Under UK law, offences must be proven 'beyond a reasonable doubt'. The BBC film illustrates a potentially commonplace error. Millions of drivers have been convicted with unsound evidence, and many prosecutions are ongoing.
The error in question is known as 'slip error'. It happens when the aiming point of the beam moves across the target vehicle. This works because laser speed meters do not directly measure speed. Instead they take a series of distance measurements. If the aiming point moves along the target vehicle the change in distance of the aiming point adds to or subtracts from the true speed.
Sources tell us that the Home Office did not test for this error before issuing type approval.
Safe Speed road safety campaign founder Paul Smith said: "No wonder we get a steady stream of indignant motorists complaining to us that they know for sure that they were not driving at the speed of which they are accused. And no wonder that people have christened the most common laser speed meter the 'dodgyscope'.
"I am certain that these devices are not suitable for gathering legal evidence of vehicle speeds. They make mistakes and the BBC film proves it. The Home Office must immediately suspend type approval on these devices pending a full investigation. Millions of drivers will be entitled to refunds, licence points removed and in some cases a large amount of compensation."
At a very rough estimate, over five million drivers have been convicted on the basis of laser speed meter evidence in the last five years. The fines refund alone will run to £300 million."
Discussion
JonLeeper said:
Even if it is true, and proved to be so the chances of anyone getting any money refunded, let alone points removed, remains less than England batting valiently for another hour, notching up 350 runs and then bowling the Aussies all out for uner 50!
Sadly, I agree. (although both are STILL more likely than cricket ever becoming interesting)
JonLeeper said:
Even if it is true, and proved to be so the chances of anyone getting any money refunded, let alone points removed, remains less than England batting valiently for another hour, notching up 350 runs and then bowling the Aussies all out for uner 50!
prepare to eat your words!
JonLeeper said:
Even if it is true, and proved to be so the chances of anyone getting any money refunded, let alone points removed, remains less than England batting valiently for another hour, notching up 350 runs and then bowling the Aussies all out for uner 50!
But if those affected all press as collective...take action und demand on basis of faulty gadget and thus insound conviction ....
- forgot - they expect you to stay silent per another thread
As for cricket...ist a very boring spectator sport
Not sexy enough There is no way on earth that this government will compensate 5 million drivers.
5000000 offences x£60 fine each= £300000000
add to that
compensation for increased insureance premiums for millions of people
add to that huge compensation for people who have lost jobs due to totting up ok not millions but it has to be quite a few
administration costs, court costs etc etc,
the country would go bancrupt
5000000 offences x£60 fine each= £300000000
add to that
compensation for increased insureance premiums for millions of people
add to that huge compensation for people who have lost jobs due to totting up ok not millions but it has to be quite a few
administration costs, court costs etc etc,
the country would go bancrupt
Mr Freefall said:
If this is true, and people get the points taken off and a full reimbursement of fine and costs, then well done indeed.
Mr F
I think this is more likely;
Scamming is a growth 'industry', IMO they will stop at nothing to keep it that way, I mean think of all the poor Scammers that would lose their jobs etc, although the Gov't do sweet FA to keep real industry here (in fact they encourage it to leave) they will defend their 'Goose that lays the golden eggs' with vigour... all in the name of safety you understand
However anything that discredits a corrupt system is fine in my book.
catso said:
they will defend their 'Goose that lays the golden eggs' with vigour... all in the name of safety you understand
I think you're mistaken; the government doesn't see scameras as a golden goose, they see it as a stick they can use to beat up motorists to achieve their goal of reducing use of private transport. The fact that they are self-funding is a nice bonus; I doubt the income is or ever will be significant to the government.
PhantomPH said:
Even if it is true, and proved to be so the chances of anyone getting any money refunded, let alone points removed, remains less than England batting valiently for another hour, notching up 350 runs and then bowling the Aussies all out for uner 50!
Sadly, I agree. (although both are STILL more likely than cricket ever becoming interesting)
Whats wrong with cricket, this could be history in the making, I suppose you are one of the thickie football supporters that does not understand such a sport as cricket.
bunglist said:
JonLeeper said:
Even if it is true, and proved to be so the chances of anyone getting any money refunded, let alone points removed, remains less than England batting valiently for another hour, notching up 350 runs and then bowling the Aussies all out for uner 50!
I'm a Rugby fan, so don't understand neither.
Sadly, I agree. (although both are STILL more likely than cricket ever becoming interesting)
Whats wrong with cricket, this could be history in the making, I suppose you are one of the thickie football supporters that does not understand such a sport as cricket.
Lets face facts. The Government will no way give a penny back, let alone compensation. They may well say they will investigate but they won't suspend there use. After their investigation that will take a very long time so people forget. They will say their investigation found nothing untoward, and everything in life is good.
It's just the same as when they say they will investigate whether or not fixed speed camera's reduce deaths, and if not they might reduce there use. Every report says the same, "they reduce deaths" followed by the mystical statistic that "The britsh public support there use" therefore more will be erected. Remember, the bristsh public wanted the Olympic games in 2012 as well. Nuf said
It's just the same as when they say they will investigate whether or not fixed speed camera's reduce deaths, and if not they might reduce there use. Every report says the same, "they reduce deaths" followed by the mystical statistic that "The britsh public support there use" therefore more will be erected. Remember, the bristsh public wanted the Olympic games in 2012 as well. Nuf said
dilbert said:
Might get your points back, but your money, no chance!
It's like getting your money back when agroup of Chavs set's fire to your car. You can't have what they havn't got.
Even if inaccuracy can be proven beyond reasonable doubt I can't imagine the government changing it's behaviour. The potential cost is far too great, they'll just rig the enquiry, they're pretty good at that nowadays.
I remember back a few years ago when one of the current affairs shows did a spot on the accuracy of lasers in aus. They caught a stobie pole (telephone pole) doing over 80km/h!
Another good one is when a tarp on a truck or trailer is flapping around, and can actually record a speed higher than the vehicle.
Another good one is when a tarp on a truck or trailer is flapping around, and can actually record a speed higher than the vehicle.
I will watch the report with what I knew already. It is a way forward, but as it has been said before, I do not think that the govt will go for a course of action that will mean that they wil leave themselves financially viable.
What is more likely is that a short passage will be added to the ACPO guidelines with regard to speed laser devices use, such as 'beware of the chance of slip error at distances of over XXX. Hold the device steady and if possible use a tripod.
In effect this will make no difference as from my experience in the magistrates court and the appeal at the crown court that the ACPO guidelines are not legal guidelines in evidence gathering, despite the fact that they clearly sat they are.
'Robocop', as I though he should be effectively known finds no problem in making an assessment of a vehicles speed at around half a mile away, then targeting the number plate of a fast moving vehicle at 400m away without the use of a tripod or anything to rest the device to steady it.
The court accepts this. The PC follows hardly any of the ACPO guidelines, in fact he has not ever seen them! Doesnt matter.
The point is, the legal system is that the officer only needs to point the device in your general direction, get any reading, and that is you. Game over.
Both myself and my solicitor explained that on every car, especially a TVR Tuscan, slip error is inevitable, after all the Tuscan has no flat point to get a reading.
The problem is the courts have been told that 'Device Approval' by the Home Secretary approves the device for use, full stop.
This is the real scandal:
What you are told in defence of the device is that it is professionally calibrates every year and tested every day.
What this actually is is that the device is calibrated on a tripod on flat, stationary objects at up to 100m away and if the device measures the right distance it passes.
When the device is tested each day by the PC (even though he doesnt have to record that he does, just remember...) is point it at a post 20m away. And, you guessed it, as long as it measures the distance correctly, then there is no doubt that the device will work on moving objects at up to 2000m.
It really is a farce the whole thing. I have tried to fight the system. It cost me in total about £1500, plus about £1000 on my insurance over the next 5 years. If anyone can help please let me know, but until some evicence that I can use without response from the 'system' I am afraid I have lost.
>> Edited by justinp1 on Monday 12th September 15:48
What is more likely is that a short passage will be added to the ACPO guidelines with regard to speed laser devices use, such as 'beware of the chance of slip error at distances of over XXX. Hold the device steady and if possible use a tripod.
In effect this will make no difference as from my experience in the magistrates court and the appeal at the crown court that the ACPO guidelines are not legal guidelines in evidence gathering, despite the fact that they clearly sat they are.
'Robocop', as I though he should be effectively known finds no problem in making an assessment of a vehicles speed at around half a mile away, then targeting the number plate of a fast moving vehicle at 400m away without the use of a tripod or anything to rest the device to steady it.
The court accepts this. The PC follows hardly any of the ACPO guidelines, in fact he has not ever seen them! Doesnt matter.
The point is, the legal system is that the officer only needs to point the device in your general direction, get any reading, and that is you. Game over.
Both myself and my solicitor explained that on every car, especially a TVR Tuscan, slip error is inevitable, after all the Tuscan has no flat point to get a reading.
The problem is the courts have been told that 'Device Approval' by the Home Secretary approves the device for use, full stop.
This is the real scandal:
What you are told in defence of the device is that it is professionally calibrates every year and tested every day.
What this actually is is that the device is calibrated on a tripod on flat, stationary objects at up to 100m away and if the device measures the right distance it passes.
When the device is tested each day by the PC (even though he doesnt have to record that he does, just remember...) is point it at a post 20m away. And, you guessed it, as long as it measures the distance correctly, then there is no doubt that the device will work on moving objects at up to 2000m.
It really is a farce the whole thing. I have tried to fight the system. It cost me in total about £1500, plus about £1000 on my insurance over the next 5 years. If anyone can help please let me know, but until some evicence that I can use without response from the 'system' I am afraid I have lost.
>> Edited by justinp1 on Monday 12th September 15:48
This for me is the interesting bit: "...Under UK law, offences must be proven 'beyond a reasonable doubt'..."
There is now reasonable doubt.
(But it's all about money, so "the law" may act differently when it comes to (a) refunds (b) abandoning this revenue-creating farce.)
Any camera representatives care to comment?
There is now reasonable doubt.
(But it's all about money, so "the law" may act differently when it comes to (a) refunds (b) abandoning this revenue-creating farce.)
Any camera representatives care to comment?
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