Mobile Cameras in the Dark

[gdaybruce]

Now that the nights are drawing in a thought occurs. Do mobile cameras operate in the dark? Fixed Gatsos obviously do because they're equipped with flash but what about hand helds and cameras in vans?

Anyone know the answer?

[kevinday]

The equipment can operate in the dark, however they need to take a picture of your registration plate, so, they will need some kind of flash that will not temporarily blind you.

[lunarscope]

They also need to "form a prior opinion of excess speed" before firing the laser/camera, etc.
That would be rather difficult (well, impossible I reckon) in the dark.

[Big Fat F'er]

lunarscope said:

They also need to "form a prior opinion of excess speed" before firing the laser/camera, etc.

Ain't this just a guideline, meaning that the good coppers follow it, but the bent coppers ignore it.

[smeggy]

Porta-gatsos: yes. They’ll also get your plate, all without needing input from the operator.

Hand-held radar: yes. I don’t know if these are still used.

Lidar ‘dodgyscopes’:yes. The operators will pull you if they can’t get your vehicle’s details, taking all personal details in the process.
I believe sCumbrian operators were out fleecing during darkness. They don’t bother with forming prior opinion……

VASCAR/in-car: no reason against, assuming there are adequate well placed landmarks, or the car has a calibrated speedo, or there are at least two BiB in the car.

[lunarscope]

Big Fat F'er said:

lunarscope said: They also need to "form a prior opinion of excess speed" before firing the laser/camera, etc. Ain't this just a guideline, meaning that the good coppers follow it, but the bent coppers ignore it.

No, it's the law.
The offence must be witnessed by a Police Officer and then corroborated by the device.
However, the Scammers lie and cheat and break the law in order to get their income.

[Cooperman]

Very likely - refer to Pepipoo.
If you get an NiP write back requiring details of the police officer who formed the prior opinion of speed including his station, rank and number. Then add the PACE letter and see where they go with that up their jacksy.

[princeperch]

Cooperman said:

Very likely - refer to Pepipoo. If you get an NiP write back requiring details of the police officer who formed the prior opinion of speed including his station, rank and number. Then add the PACE letter and see where they go with that up their jacksy.

I really,really,really cant see how this ever can/will/does work...

A person, with the authority of the CC,and the relevant training, can legally form an opinion of excess speed, it does not have to be a copper....

I could do it with the relevant training, you could, the guy across the road could, the binman could..the list goes on...

Is it me, or have I missed something very obvious?

>> Edited by princeperch on Wednesday 14th September 14:47

[lunarscope]

princeperch said:

Cooperman said: Very likely - refer to Pepipoo. If you get an NiP write back requiring details of the police officer who formed the prior opinion of speed including his station, rank and number. Then add the PACE letter and see where they go with that up their jacksy. I really,really,really cant see how this ever can/will/does work... A person, with the authority of the CC,and the relevant training, can legally form an opinion of excess speed, it does not have to be a copper.... I could do it with the relevant training, you could, the guy across the road could, the binman could..the list goes on... Is it me, or have I missed something very obvious? >> Edited by princeperch on Wednesday 14th September 14:47

You mean the training that they don't receive.
They are trained to operate the equipment, not uphold the law.

[kevinday]

princeperch said:

Cooperman said: Very likely - refer to Pepipoo. If you get an NiP write back requiring details of the police officer who formed the prior opinion of speed including his station, rank and number. Then add the PACE letter and see where they go with that up their jacksy. I really,really,really cant see how this ever can/will/does work... A person, with the authority of the CC,and the relevant training, can legally form an opinion of excess speed, it does not have to be a copper.... I could do it with the relevant training, you could, the guy across the road could, the binman could..the list goes on... Is it me, or have I missed something very obvious? >> Edited by princeperch on Wednesday 14th September 14:47

It is in case law that it must be a PC forming the opinion of excess speed before the speed measurement device is used.

There is nothing in law that permits a CC to authorise a civilian to be able to do this PC job.

I do not know of any case that has even got to court where the defendant has asked for the serial number of the PC who formed the prior opinion and it has been a civilian. AFAIK they are all quietly dropped, thus preventing the floodgates of 'unfair' convictions being opened.

I would be very interested to hear of any case that has gone to court when this is being used as a defence.

[smeggy]

kevinday said:

It is in case law that it must be a PC forming the opinion of excess speed before the speed measurement device is used.

Really? Do you have a source for that? I was under the impression that the requirement for prior opinion is only a guideline.

kevinday said:

I do not know of any case that has even got to court where the defendant has asked for the serial number of the PC who formed the prior opinion and it has been a civilian. AFAIK they are all quietly dropped, thus preventing the floodgates of 'unfair' convictions being opened

I’m sure that if this was indeed the case, the floodgates would already have been blown open in “The Italian Job” style, hence I remain sceptical.

[gdaybruce]

All very interesting guys, but if I can go back to my original question about camera functionality in the dark, do I need to be worrying when, say, my speed inadvertantly creeps up to a giddy 79mph when travelling home on the M4 in Wiltshire at 4.30pm on a December afternoon ie it's pitch black and the only lights are those of the vehicles. Will the vans have all packed up and gone home for tea and crumpets by the log fire?

[PJS917]

Some speed scamera vans use light guns, these need a minimum amount of light to work. They will not work in dull/dark conditions.

[smeggy]

PJS917 said:

Some speed scamera vans use light guns, these need a minimum amount of light to work. They will not work in dull/dark conditions.

Can you elaborate on the 'light gun', or at least give a source of info? (assuming you didn't mean Lidar (IR laser).

[apache]

It's probably much easier to pull em out of the ground in the dark I should think.......that doesn't help does it

[PJS917]

Some guns use light rather than laser to measure distance. It means no laser detector/radar can pick them up. But they will not work in the dark.

[cptsideways]

PJS917 said:

Some guns use light rather than laser to measure distance. It means no laser detector/radar can pick them up. But they will not work in the dark.

The "guns" are either radar (no longer used much) or laser that work night or day. The only issue is how the info is gathered. Mr T5 will usually stop you & apprehend. Mr cashvan will need to video you, hence the daylight robbery only, except in cumbria where they claim to use some king of nightflash system as you pass to pick up your reg details.

[smeggy]

PJS917 said:

Some guns use light rather than laser to measure distance. It means no laser detector/radar can pick them up. But they will not work in the dark.

Not trying to offend, but (to put it mildly) I remain sceptical. What you say makes no sense.

* Laser is light (that's what the 'L' stands for in the acronym)
* Only a laser can be modulated fast enough for range-finder (distance measuring) purposes, within reasonable financial limits.
* If the gun can see its reflected/transmitted signal, then a detector can certainly be designed to detect the incident beam.
* There’s no way the gun can’t work in the dark if it supplies its own light.

As the captain already said: the only two approved options are radar or laser.


Where did you hear about this ‘light gun’?

[mybrainhurts]

That twirp from Cumbria was on here a while ago, bragging that he had new kit that works in the dark....

[PJS917]

All I was told by a chap who sells radar and gps camera detectors was that some of the Talivans use reflective light technology. (whichcraft) No detectors are capable of detecting this so no early warning can be given, the flipside is this system does not work at night. I know my laser detector has never picked up a single talivan around these parts.