Speeding emergency services?
Discussion
Just a check on the legal situation - for curiosity rather than anything else!
I live just around the corner from a Fire Station and they probably get one call every other day. Not all Firemen live next door so there are a couple who drive down my (while there are road works) or neighbouring roads to get to the station...... at a fair old lick of speed!
Obviously they are on a "shout" and low-and-behold, 3 minutes later a Fire Engine goes shooting down the road.
But, can these people be prosecuted for speeding? Personally, the risk of them not getting to a fire in time to save a life outweighs the risk of hitting someone, but wondering what the legal situation is. Their cars dont have blue lights (commanding officers does though) and not in an official Fire Service vehicle....
What do you think?
I live just around the corner from a Fire Station and they probably get one call every other day. Not all Firemen live next door so there are a couple who drive down my (while there are road works) or neighbouring roads to get to the station...... at a fair old lick of speed!
Obviously they are on a "shout" and low-and-behold, 3 minutes later a Fire Engine goes shooting down the road.
But, can these people be prosecuted for speeding? Personally, the risk of them not getting to a fire in time to save a life outweighs the risk of hitting someone, but wondering what the legal situation is. Their cars dont have blue lights (commanding officers does though) and not in an official Fire Service vehicle....
What do you think?
off_again said:
Just a check on the legal situation - for curiosity rather than anything else!
I live just around the corner from a Fire Station and they probably get one call every other day. Not all Firemen live next door so there are a couple who drive down my (while there are road works) or neighbouring roads to get to the station...... at a fair old lick of speed!
Obviously they are on a "shout" and low-and-behold, 3 minutes later a Fire Engine goes shooting down the road.
But, can these people be prosecuted for speeding? Personally, the risk of them not getting to a fire in time to save a life outweighs the risk of hitting someone, but wondering what the legal situation is. Their cars dont have blue lights (commanding officers does though) and not in an official Fire Service vehicle....
What do you think?
Sounds to me like there needs to be a direct link between the speed and the mercy incident - and the only way to have conclusive proof of that is that the vehicle being driven at said speed is the emergency vehicle.
I would contest that the fact they MAY be saving someone's life outweighs the risk of hitting and no doubt killing someone else even before you know what that emergency entails. That's fuzzy logic.
Sounds like they just need to get up and into work earlier. Either that or move closer to the station!
My friend, who recently retired from the fire service (am I allowed to say 'service'?) said they used to always include cameras in their routes to shouts if possible, just to set them off
Naughty but fun.
Back to the point, any halfway decent society would turn a blind eye to this sort of behaviour - it might be you that needs help next time!
Naughty but fun.
Back to the point, any halfway decent society would turn a blind eye to this sort of behaviour - it might be you that needs help next time!
off_again said:
Just a check on the legal situation - for curiosity rather than anything else!
I live just around the corner from a Fire Station and they probably get one call every other day. Not all Firemen live next door so there are a couple who drive down my (while there are road works) or neighbouring roads to get to the station...... at a fair old lick of speed!
Obviously they are on a "shout" and low-and-behold, 3 minutes later a Fire Engine goes shooting down the road.
But, can these people be prosecuted for speeding? Personally, the risk of them not getting to a fire in time to save a life outweighs the risk of hitting someone, but wondering what the legal situation is. Their cars dont have blue lights (commanding officers does though) and not in an official Fire Service vehicle....
What do you think?
Section 87 RTRA 1984 says
No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire and rescue authority, ambulance or police purposes, if the observance of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that occasion.
This would provide your defence, no defence available against due care though.
IaHa said:
Section 87 RTRA 1984 says
No statutory provision imposing a speed limit on motor vehicles shall apply to any vehicle on an occasion when it is being used for fire and rescue authority, ambulance or police purposes, if the observance of that provision would be likely to hinder the use of the vehicle for the purpose for which it is being used on that occasion.
This would provide your defence, no defence available against due care though.
Interesting - I dont mind of course, but just wondering what the legal situation was. I am aware that any emergency services vehicle on a "shout" can and does often exceed the prevailing speed limit, obtaining relative immunity from prosecution for speeding (but not carelessness as mentioned!).
So, in the pursuit of their duty (an emergency situation, regardless of the service involved I suppose) can use a non-emergency services vehicle and obtain protection under the relative cause in the RTA? This is good - because I would hate to let officious rules get in the way of someone trying to do their job...
ashes said:
Back to the point, any halfway decent society would turn a blind eye to this sort of behaviour - it might be you that needs help next time!
That was not what I was suggesting at all I am afraid. I was merely wondering (in a kinda odd, strange and bizzare way) what the legal situation is - not looking to complain or accuse anyone. Just piqued my interest and I was intrigued to find out what the law was.....
Thats all...
interesting..Id be very surprised if they had this 'cover' (as mentioned by IaHa) if driving their own vehicles.
With all due respect to the brave firemen of this country.....a fair few really do have their cake and eat it in terms of working hours, multiple jobs etc.
I wouldnt like to think that because Mac was at his 'other job', he'd had to do a sub 2 minute cross london dash and knocked over my gran in his haste....
With all due respect to the brave firemen of this country.....a fair few really do have their cake and eat it in terms of working hours, multiple jobs etc.
I wouldnt like to think that because Mac was at his 'other job', he'd had to do a sub 2 minute cross london dash and knocked over my gran in his haste....
As our Cumbria friend (soon to be Lancashire) states if the fireman is using ANY vehicle to get to the Station and then on to a shout he is exempt from speeding. Either any report submitted would be culled before Court (after due enquiry to substantiate) or a matter to be aired at Court where a Not Guilty should result.
Now consider this:
Doctor going out from his Surgery to a very ill person.
Not exempt from speeding.
Doctor arriving at ill patient deems needs URGENT medical treatment, pops him in his car and rushes to Hospital
Exempt - using vehicle for Ambulance purposes.
PC on way to Court in his own car breaks down. Attention given at roadside as a result he is late for Court so puts his foot down.
Exempt?
dvd
Now consider this:
Doctor going out from his Surgery to a very ill person.
Not exempt from speeding.
Doctor arriving at ill patient deems needs URGENT medical treatment, pops him in his car and rushes to Hospital
Exempt - using vehicle for Ambulance purposes.
PC on way to Court in his own car breaks down. Attention given at roadside as a result he is late for Court so puts his foot down.
Exempt?
dvd
Dwight VanDriver said:
PC on way to Court in his own car breaks down. Attention given at roadside as a result he is late for Court so puts his foot down.
Exempt?
The fact that you pose the question indicates that the poor PC wouldnt be exempt. Why though? I mean, there are plenty of sharp lawyers who would use this to stop a trial and hence get the person off....
Mind you - in my local example above, when I say that the firemen drive to the station, well lets put it this way - they could probably run and get there at exactly the same time that as if they had driven...!!! So its pretty pointless at the end of the day.
Strangely though - it seems that WILTS fire service see to specialise in Vauxhall Signum V6TDi's for their officers. Speedy little things those you know!
Dwight VanDriver said:Eh? Sorry that flew over my head, are you talking about steviebabes?
As our Cumbria friend (soon to be Lancashire)
Dwight VanDriver said:
Doctor going out from his Surgery to a very ill person.
Not exempt from speeding.
Doctor arriving at ill patient deems needs URGENT medical treatment, pops him in his car and rushes to Hospital
Exempt - using vehicle for Ambulance purposes.
Devil's advocate mode, wooden spoon inserted, hairs fully split.
So when is a vehicle an Ambulance? When used for the transportation of patients to hospital it seems.
So is an Ambulance on the way to a patient an ambulance
and thus exempt?
In the case of the Doc, it seems illogical that the most urgent part of the journey, ie TO the patient is not exempt, yet the journey TO HOSPITAL is exempt. Lets face it on the journey to hospital he must have already assessed the likelihood of the patient surviving the journey.
Dwight VanDriver said:
PC on way to Court in his own car breaks down. Attention given at roadside as a result he is late for Court so puts his foot down.
Exempt?
The court thought so I do recall.
Further illogicality, a vehicle (taxi?) used for transport of a patient to hospital for an organ transplant is exempt, but the vehicle used for the transport of the transplant organs from donor to recipient is not exempt.
Law? Ass? Shurely shome mishtake.
Flat in Fifth said:
Law? Ass? Shurely shome mishtake.
Yeah daft intit! DVD merely provides the information and upholds the law - he doesnt set it....
Mind you, if it were up to the likes of DVD and the other BiB here, we might not be in such a pickle with our criminal justice system in the first place!
In responce to FiFies post:
Cumbria into Lancashire as a Police Authority in proposed Home Office reshuffle on 43 forces down to 30 odd. Guess it will also be bye bye Cleveland, back to Durham and North Yorks (the more things change the more they are the same).
Section 87 mentioned doesn't go further and put any definition on police, ambulance, or Fire brigade purposes. It would appear one must be circumspect when considering although in the case of the PC mentioned ( Aitken v Yarwood [1965]) it was stated any exemption claimed should be strictly construed.
Regarding the Doctor. Ambulance is not defined under that Act and WILKINSON on Traffic Law states that one has to consider that in the Oxford Dictionary - " a vehicle for conveying the injured". An Ambulance is defined under Vehicle Excise and Reg. Act 1984 Schedule 2 (6) - exempt Excise duty- as:
a vehicle constructed or adapted for, and used for no other purpose other than the carriage of sick, injured or disabled people to or from welfare centres or places where medical or dental treatment is given AND is readily identifiable as a vehicle used for the carriage of such people by being marked "Ambulance" on both sides.
So no get out for alpha male rushing his pregnant wife to Hospital or Doctor going TO a patient.
Regarding the Organ Transplant runs (which we used to do as Humanitarian Escorts) moves are afoot, after the kerfuffle last year in Cambs, to similarly exempt providing the driver has done a high speed driving course (and also exempt whilst undertaking this training) in the Road Safety Bill currently before Parliament.
Polite Mode > Off Insult FIF Mode < ON.
Nar thin thou grit lummack. Ah's telt thee afower me and Bro hesta rely ont sheckles thou gives tit Treasury bit sweet of thee brow.Sitten nanyfudging hon a Friday hafternoon ont Internet box thingy, thoo's makking nowt, so ghee ower and git thee sen tive woark willtah. Appen me and Bro will then hev a few coppers come Pension day.
(For you Sartheners FiF no doubt will supply a translation if you send him a tenpound note.)
dvd
Cumbria into Lancashire as a Police Authority in proposed Home Office reshuffle on 43 forces down to 30 odd. Guess it will also be bye bye Cleveland, back to Durham and North Yorks (the more things change the more they are the same).
Section 87 mentioned doesn't go further and put any definition on police, ambulance, or Fire brigade purposes. It would appear one must be circumspect when considering although in the case of the PC mentioned ( Aitken v Yarwood [1965]) it was stated any exemption claimed should be strictly construed.
Regarding the Doctor. Ambulance is not defined under that Act and WILKINSON on Traffic Law states that one has to consider that in the Oxford Dictionary - " a vehicle for conveying the injured". An Ambulance is defined under Vehicle Excise and Reg. Act 1984 Schedule 2 (6) - exempt Excise duty- as:
a vehicle constructed or adapted for, and used for no other purpose other than the carriage of sick, injured or disabled people to or from welfare centres or places where medical or dental treatment is given AND is readily identifiable as a vehicle used for the carriage of such people by being marked "Ambulance" on both sides.
So no get out for alpha male rushing his pregnant wife to Hospital or Doctor going TO a patient.
Regarding the Organ Transplant runs (which we used to do as Humanitarian Escorts) moves are afoot, after the kerfuffle last year in Cambs, to similarly exempt providing the driver has done a high speed driving course (and also exempt whilst undertaking this training) in the Road Safety Bill currently before Parliament.
Polite Mode > Off Insult FIF Mode < ON.
Nar thin thou grit lummack. Ah's telt thee afower me and Bro hesta rely ont sheckles thou gives tit Treasury bit sweet of thee brow.Sitten nanyfudging hon a Friday hafternoon ont Internet box thingy, thoo's makking nowt, so ghee ower and git thee sen tive woark willtah. Appen me and Bro will then hev a few coppers come Pension day.
(For you Sartheners FiF no doubt will supply a translation if you send him a tenpound note.)
dvd
Dwight VanDriver said:
Section 87 mentioned doesn't go further and put any definition on police, ambulance, or Fire brigade purposes.
8< snip snip 8<
Regarding the Doctor. Ambulance is not defined under that Act and WILKINSON on Traffic Law states that one has to consider that in the Oxford Dictionary - " a vehicle for conveying the injured". An Ambulance is defined under Vehicle Excise and Reg. Act 1984 Schedule 2 (6) - exempt Excise duty- as:
a vehicle constructed or adapted for, and used for no other purpose other than the carriage of sick, injured or disabled people to or from welfare centres or places where medical or dental treatment is given AND is readily identifiable as a vehicle used for the carriage of such people by being marked "Ambulance" on both sides.
Hmmm wonders.......
Presumably that knackered bus with ambulance markings that is used exclusively for transporting the residents of the Bide-a-Wee Rest Home to and from the care centre is exempt then.
Pity it's governed to about 40 max, would have been a bit problematical on the M4 today when plod insisted everything went at 50 minimum. fnaar fnaar.
:tyke mode on:
Nar then sithee, earlies today so 16:34 BST equates to phaffing about getting t' PhD*sorted.
* P (polishin'} H {hooverin'] D [dustin'}
Dwight VanDriver said:
Guess it will also be bye bye Cleveland, back to Durham and North Yorks (the more things change the more they are the same).
I'm on my knees praying that Hartlepool will once again be part of Durham Constabulary.
No more cameras and a sensible Chief Constable !!
Flat in Fifth said:
Section 87 mentioned doesn't go further and put any definition on police, ambulance, or Fire brigade purposes.
8< snip snip 8<
Regarding the Doctor. Ambulance is not defined under that Act and WILKINSON on Traffic Law states that one has to consider that in the Oxford Dictionary - " a vehicle for conveying the injured". An Ambulance is defined under Vehicle Excise and Reg. Act 1984 Schedule 2 (6) - exempt Excise duty- as:
a vehicle constructed or adapted for, and used for no other purpose other than the carriage of sick, injured or disabled people to or from welfare centres or places where medical or dental treatment is given AND is readily identifiable as a vehicle used for the carriage of such people by being marked "Ambulance" on both sides.
Hmmm wonders.......
Presumably that knackered bus with ambulance markings that is used exclusively for transporting the residents of the Bide-a-Wee Rest Home to and from the care centre is exempt then.
Pity it's governed to about 40 max, would have been a bit problematical on the M4 today when plod insisted everything went at 50 minimum. fnaar fnaar.
:tyke mode on:
Nar then sithee, earlies today so 16:34 BST equates to phaffing about getting t' PhD*sorted.
* P (polishin'} H {hooverin'] D [dustin'}
Ah but FiF this is where the real legal eagles (vultures) make their dosh.
Entering a defence I would argue in a case of speeding that the definition in the Excise Act makes an exemption.
As a prosecutor, I would argue that Excise definition has no part in the Road Traffic Regulation Act mention of Ambulance and that OED applies.
Loads of dosh either way....
dvd
Cripes DVD is bilingual.
The use of normal cars for police purposes is absolutely included in the speed exemption -- a friend of mine regularly recalls having to get to shouts in the Posche Turbo (and hearing Trafpol putting out calls on "possible stolen" before being informed it was their own side...)
The use of normal cars for police purposes is absolutely included in the speed exemption -- a friend of mine regularly recalls having to get to shouts in the Posche Turbo (and hearing Trafpol putting out calls on "possible stolen" before being informed it was their own side...)
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