Offence, conviction, criminal, civil?
Discussion
I have a friend at work here asking about law type stuff and I can't help and thought this would be the place.
This guy and his mates want to go to the US in March on a surfing holiday, but one of them has a driving conviction. From what I can gather he fell asleep at the wheel, crashed (no harm to any bystanders or anything) and was done for dangerous driving. He was given the option of 3 points and £60 which he took.
He's concerned that because the guy doesn't have a visa he'll be turned away when he lands in the US. They don't have time to get him a visa. The Visa people say that any conviction will mean he will need a visa.
We're trying to work out whether he has a convition or not, whether it's civil or criminal or whether it's just an endorsable offence like speeding and will be fine.
Everyone we speak to seems to have a different opinion including the local police station.
This guy and his mates want to go to the US in March on a surfing holiday, but one of them has a driving conviction. From what I can gather he fell asleep at the wheel, crashed (no harm to any bystanders or anything) and was done for dangerous driving. He was given the option of 3 points and £60 which he took.
He's concerned that because the guy doesn't have a visa he'll be turned away when he lands in the US. They don't have time to get him a visa. The Visa people say that any conviction will mean he will need a visa.
We're trying to work out whether he has a convition or not, whether it's civil or criminal or whether it's just an endorsable offence like speeding and will be fine.
Everyone we speak to seems to have a different opinion including the local police station.
Firstly I should re-check the offence for which he was given the Conditional Offer and accepted. I am not aware, and stand to be corrected, that the FP Scheme applies to Dangerous Driving. It is not listed as such in my references and Sch 3 Road Traffic Offenders Act 1988.
Dangerous driving is a Recordable Offence on Police Records owing to the fact that on punishment it can attract a term of imprisonment (6 mths summarily/2 years indictment - National Police Records (Recordable Offences) Regs 2000 )
so would need to be declared IMHO to the USA authorities.
As to whether a FPN is a conviction, well I would say no but yes. Under Section 52 (1) Road Traffic Act 1988 a Fixed Penalty Notice means a Notice offering the opportunity of the discarge of any LIABILITY TO CONVICTION of the offence to which the Notice relates by payment of a fixed penalty. But it is used as a conviction for the purposes of totting penalty points.
If you use the Keyword "USA Embassy UK" you can pull up their site which contains a pethora of information and as the ultimate authority on this matter, I would recommend that they be approached to get their verdict.
dvd
Dangerous driving is a Recordable Offence on Police Records owing to the fact that on punishment it can attract a term of imprisonment (6 mths summarily/2 years indictment - National Police Records (Recordable Offences) Regs 2000 )
so would need to be declared IMHO to the USA authorities.
As to whether a FPN is a conviction, well I would say no but yes. Under Section 52 (1) Road Traffic Act 1988 a Fixed Penalty Notice means a Notice offering the opportunity of the discarge of any LIABILITY TO CONVICTION of the offence to which the Notice relates by payment of a fixed penalty. But it is used as a conviction for the purposes of totting penalty points.
If you use the Keyword "USA Embassy UK" you can pull up their site which contains a pethora of information and as the ultimate authority on this matter, I would recommend that they be approached to get their verdict.
dvd
dmitsi said:If you are staying less than 90 days you _may_ be elligible to enter the US through the Visa Waiver Program, but to do so you must have a machine readable passport and you have to complete the declaration on a I-94W form.
If they're not staying long then they don't need a visa, 90 days or less and no visa required.
The relevant question is:
B) Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense (sic) or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to controlled subatance; or been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more; or been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?
The last of which is a real cracker of a question.
"moral turpitude" means "depravity" ... I think you're mate is OK with a traffic offence
dmitsi said:
If they're not staying long then they don't need a visa, 90 days or less and no visa required.
I'm not sure that's correct. A friend of my wife has a conviction for theft (nicked a paltry amount from a till at work when she was desperate). She had to travel from Glasgow to the US Embassy in London last summer for a 5 minute interview just so she could go to Florida for her two week honeymoon.
Don't know whether this applies to motoring offences or not.
Sure, I was under the impression a fixed penalty notice wasn't treated the same when trying to enter America, though saying that they are a very 'free' country nowadays and they probably wouldn't let me in because I think G. Bush is some sort of Disney cartoon put in office to entertain the masses.
ATG said:The best question used to be: "Is it your intention to overthrow the lawfully elected government of the USA?" ... now, who was it answered: "Sole purpose of visit!" ? - Streaky
If they're not staying long then they don't need a visa, 90 days or less and no visa required.
The relevant question is:
B) Have you ever been arrested or convicted for an offense (sic) or crime involving moral turpitude or a violation related to controlled subatance; or been arrested or convicted for two or more offenses which the aggregate sentence to confinement was five years or more; or been a controlled substance trafficker; or are you seeking entry to engage in criminal or immoral activities?
The last of which is a real cracker of a question.
"moral turpitude" means "depravity" ... I think you're mate is OK with a traffic offence
If he got convicted in court then he has a conviction, but if he’s going in March then forget getting a Visa – the whole process can take many months. He has to get a letter from the court which can take months in itself.
However – bear in mind that the US would like *everyone* to have a visa – if you’ve ever (and the mean ever - there's no statute of limitations relief) even been arrested then, what you're supposed to do is call the (premium rate) US Embassy visa info service. You’ll be on hold for ages and eventually they’ll say they can’t tell you if you need a visa – the only way to know is to apply. Useful.
In reality though they’re not interested in less serious crimes – there have been stories of Immigration Officers laughing at people who have Visa’s because of driving offences (that must have pleased the visitors!). Also, it’s generally accepted that there is no way they can check in real time, or know in advance, of your convictions. They maintain a list of banned people, and if you’re on that list then they’ll turn the plane back, but otherwise you’d have to arouse their suspicions somehow and cause them to detain you and run checks.
My wife got done for careless driving many year ago and it’s never even entered our heads to get her a Visa, and we’ve been to the US probably a dozen times since.
My guide, that I’ve referred many people to, is the same as ATG’s – if you can answer No to that question then you *should* be OK. One thing he is incorrect about is that ‘moral turpitude’ has no recognised meaning in US law – in fact its lack of meaning has been the subject of a court case in the US, which the government won. Civil Rights people say it’s been left vague so the government can use it to mean whatever they want.
One mega important thing, if he’s travelling with a bunch of mates, is for God’s sake don’t make any smart remarks to the Immigration Officer along the line of ‘did you mention that driving conviction’ etc. If he doesn’t have to drive over there then no need to even take his licence.
However – bear in mind that the US would like *everyone* to have a visa – if you’ve ever (and the mean ever - there's no statute of limitations relief) even been arrested then, what you're supposed to do is call the (premium rate) US Embassy visa info service. You’ll be on hold for ages and eventually they’ll say they can’t tell you if you need a visa – the only way to know is to apply. Useful.
In reality though they’re not interested in less serious crimes – there have been stories of Immigration Officers laughing at people who have Visa’s because of driving offences (that must have pleased the visitors!). Also, it’s generally accepted that there is no way they can check in real time, or know in advance, of your convictions. They maintain a list of banned people, and if you’re on that list then they’ll turn the plane back, but otherwise you’d have to arouse their suspicions somehow and cause them to detain you and run checks.
My wife got done for careless driving many year ago and it’s never even entered our heads to get her a Visa, and we’ve been to the US probably a dozen times since.
My guide, that I’ve referred many people to, is the same as ATG’s – if you can answer No to that question then you *should* be OK. One thing he is incorrect about is that ‘moral turpitude’ has no recognised meaning in US law – in fact its lack of meaning has been the subject of a court case in the US, which the government won. Civil Rights people say it’s been left vague so the government can use it to mean whatever they want.
One mega important thing, if he’s travelling with a bunch of mates, is for God’s sake don’t make any smart remarks to the Immigration Officer along the line of ‘did you mention that driving conviction’ etc. If he doesn’t have to drive over there then no need to even take his licence.
If he does have to drive over there then get an International Drivers Permit beforehand (£ 5.50 from the AA and send a photo) It doesn't mention points or bans or such like.
Obtaining a visa is an unpleasant, expensive and timeconsuming lottery. Don't unless you have to. Business colleagues have to do so to work on board ships visiting the US. They have been kept waiting most of a day, treated like criminals and in the end three people together emerged with different visa's as the officers in the embassy seem to make it up as they go along.
Re offences, at the moment, the US does not have general access to UK records. No doubt that will all change if this government mangaes to create its National Database on the back of ID cards.
Obtaining a visa is an unpleasant, expensive and timeconsuming lottery. Don't unless you have to. Business colleagues have to do so to work on board ships visiting the US. They have been kept waiting most of a day, treated like criminals and in the end three people together emerged with different visa's as the officers in the embassy seem to make it up as they go along.
Re offences, at the moment, the US does not have general access to UK records. No doubt that will all change if this government mangaes to create its National Database on the back of ID cards.
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