Essex police - inane idiots
Discussion
mybrainhurts said:
Walked into that, didn't I...?
May I ask another question?
Would you support your officer who was standing next to me, got miffed with Mr P, and tried to slap an eighty quid on him...?
I would support my officer. Just because Mr P is an important person it does not exempt him from committing offences until the CPS get hold of things!
mg6b said:
The laws banning marajuana making it an illegal drug have been softened recently for the simple reason that too many users exist to ever make enforcement possible. Its still an illegal and very dangerous drug, yet the mindless liberal elite have chosen to downgrade the imposition on the general public.
You've been conned. Nothing has changed with Cannabis except its classification. We are doing the same procedural stuff re enforcement and process that we did before. You still get nicked for personal possession (or can do).
Good old Blunkett had everyone over a treat, most of all those who now think it is almost permissible.
>> Edited by mg6b on Sunday 5th February 19:24
I think you have rather missed the point but never mind we have to find work for the less able in our society.
mybrainhurts said:
Police forces are under pressure from the Home Office to increase their detection rates. Section 5 POA 1986 is a detection and goes into the stats to show the performance improvement of the force. £80 PND (penalty notice disposal) offences are counted in those figures.
At last.....
At last, indeed. Now we can observe a BBS two-minute silence to mourn the death of Policing with Humanity - buried under Corporate Visions, Mission Statements and Performance Targets.
I must congratulate mg6b on his stoicism - no, catholicism - in upholding his unassailable position as an Officer of the Law. It is clear from his chapter-and-verse arguments that we are barking up the wrong tree in trying to invoke the Human Condition where the Modern Blair Force are concerned, the Law is now black-and-white; beyond question.
We must respect Officers of the Law as they are employed by us to serve the Home Office, rather than the Public Good.
We are all criminals waiting to be caught and we should accept that we are far less intelligent than they are, so it is only a matter of time....
How free we are, as individuals, to live in a Democracy.
>> Edited by MGBGT on Monday 6th February 00:24
>> Edited by MGBGT on Monday 6th February 00:26
MGBGT said:In Sir Ian Blair's recent 40-point mission statement, or values statement, or whatever it was ... not one of the points dealt with reducing crime. Even the published Mission and Values statements of the MPS make no reference to crime, merely the weasel words "safer London" - Streaky
Police forces are under pressure from the Home Office to increase their detection rates. Section 5 POA 1986 is a detection and goes into the stats to show the performance improvement of the force. £80 PND (penalty notice disposal) offences are counted in those figures.
At last.....
At last, indeed. Now we can observe a BBS two-minute silence to mourn the death of Policing with Humanity - buried under Corporate Visions, Mission Statements and Performance Targets.
futie said:
Big Fat F'er, I think I understand what you've said, but it seems to boil down to the point that you can't possibly support principles unless you can demonstrate that you've actively stood up for principles by joining a group, or forming one. That's just not true; in every day life we support principles - i mean; even letting someone out of a junction in front of you is an act of principle. So if this is the entry requirement I think we can all join!
The forming a group example was just that, an example of an action, any action. What I really mean to say was that too many folk nowadays seem to go on about standing up for principles, but only after it's caused them a problem. If someone says they are objecting on a point of principle, and using terms about it. If you genuinely believe that it is an attack on your freedom, then surely you will have done something, even if it's only write a letter.
futie said:
Also, I don't believe it's the police's job to interfere with how this guy brings up his kids, or even consider this. This is extending the argument in order to support a flawed core decision. A similar stance to using the law to justify this decision. It's not a matter of law - it's common sense, principles and moral judgement.
No, I never meant it's the Police's job. I meant that considering how much people bang on about respect, surely we should question how this guy is influencing his kids (assuming he has any).
By the way MBH - you know when you said you were joking when I explained I was joking. I knew you were joking, and I was joking back.
mg6b said:
I think you have rather missed the point but never mind we have to find work for the less able in our society.
No. I got your point. Just pointed out what you appear to lack in understanding. maybe you feel a bit more able now you know
No, you missed the point but never mind just go in your own little world. Its rare on here I come across people who are not worth having a discussion with but you are one.
nonegreen said:
I think you have rather missed the point but never mind we have to find work for the less able in our society.
No. I got your point. Just pointed out what you appear to lack in understanding. maybe you feel a bit more able now you know
No, you missed the point but never mind just go in your own little world. Its rare on here I come across people who are not worth having a discussion with but you are one.
Oooooo Oooooo That one hurt
you only spout drivel from what I read but some of it is at least amusing on occasions.
>> Edited by mg6b on Monday 6th February 15:56
mg6b said:
[quote=flemke]
Hear, hear. This is exactly the kind of thing S5 was designed for but Oh no, it might upset the politicians if we arrest these people, lets go after the easy targets.
For someone who has been in the industry, do you not think that comment is what we referred to in the industry as 'going off half cocked?'
Maybe you jumped ship an awful long time ago before current methods were used to deal with this issue!
Jumped ship 5 years ago but I'm obviously not up on the intricasies of policy or procedure changes. Interesting to note the criticism of the Police by Peter Hain and others regarding their shock at the lack of Police action with regard to the blatant incitement 'protesters'.
I can't even begin to calculate the damage that not seeming to act at the time of the protest has done to the rule of law in this country. They are obviously trying to back track by saying that they are compiling information on the hardcore protesters but I still think nicking them at the time would have been easier and more productive. No doubt, the gold commander didn't want to stick their neck out and do their job and so let it be someone elses problem. If it had been 50 football fans causing trouble they would have been dealt with very swiftly.
Scott
purpleheadedcerb said:
[quote=flemke]
Hear, hear. This is exactly the kind of thing S5 was designed for but Oh no, it might upset the politicians if we arrest these people, lets go after the easy targets.
For someone who has been in the industry, do you not think that comment is what we referred to in the industry as 'going off half cocked?'
Maybe you jumped ship an awful long time ago before current methods were used to deal with this issue!
Jumped ship 5 years ago but I'm obviously not up on the intricasies of policy or procedure changes. Interesting to note the criticism of the Police by Peter Hain and others regarding their shock at the lack of Police action with regard to the blatant incitement 'protesters'.
I can't even begin to calculate the damage that not seeming to act at the time of the protest has done to the rule of law in this country. They are obviously trying to back track by saying that they are compiling information on the hardcore protesters but I still think nicking them at the time would have been easier and more productive. No doubt, the gold commander didn't want to stick their neck out and do their job and so let it be someone elses problem. If it had been 50 football fans causing trouble they would have been dealt with very swiftly.
Scott
Mg6b, do you argue for what the police did here because you believe it to have been truly worthwhile for the good of the public and the community, or do you defend it because that is what they are forced to do by the home office detection targets?
I don't get your angle or your position in this arguement? Surely you can see if police are under manned and over stretched that yet more pointless target chasing is going to have them spending even more time following up pointless "crimes" than being out on the street acting as a deterrent, and waiting for worthwhile crimes.
From what I gather your defending just following the letter of the law and the home office targets, great, but that isn't any good for the good of the public service that they pay for, and so if your position is to defend that, you must be very stupid!
Call the police because a burgular has entered your home, and find they are busy booking 10 people for sticking their figers up at police officers
and will be with you in an hour or so.
How can you defend such a position that is effectively destroying public/police relations and turning the police into target chasers for their own good, not working to serve and protect the public?
Dave
I don't get your angle or your position in this arguement? Surely you can see if police are under manned and over stretched that yet more pointless target chasing is going to have them spending even more time following up pointless "crimes" than being out on the street acting as a deterrent, and waiting for worthwhile crimes.
From what I gather your defending just following the letter of the law and the home office targets, great, but that isn't any good for the good of the public service that they pay for, and so if your position is to defend that, you must be very stupid!
Call the police because a burgular has entered your home, and find they are busy booking 10 people for sticking their figers up at police officers
and will be with you in an hour or so. How can you defend such a position that is effectively destroying public/police relations and turning the police into target chasers for their own good, not working to serve and protect the public?
Dave
This may not be popular, but I'm pleased that Mr Fingers was nicked by the Police.
Given the choice between Mr Fingers being nicked or a drug dealer/rapist/murderer/terrorist being nicked, I would always choose the second option, but there wasn't a convenient choice to be made here.
As a society we need to rediscover respect for authority sooner rather than later. This respect has been eroded by left wing values - the deliberate undermining of the Police, stupid legislation, softness on crime and political correctness.
If we don't like the legislation we need to change the legislators, not the enforcers. We need discipline and respect to be reintroduced to our society as soon as possible, because they are the cement that holds everything together. No discipline + no respect = anarchy.
Mr Fingers chose to publicly demonstrate a lack of respect for authority and he chose to do it without considering the consequences. I'm sure he knows all about his rights, and clearly has no concept of responsibilities. He has now learned that there are consequences for his actions. These are lessons that we all need to have reinforced if we are to arrest the plummeting decline of our society.
Given the choice between Mr Fingers being nicked or a drug dealer/rapist/murderer/terrorist being nicked, I would always choose the second option, but there wasn't a convenient choice to be made here.
As a society we need to rediscover respect for authority sooner rather than later. This respect has been eroded by left wing values - the deliberate undermining of the Police, stupid legislation, softness on crime and political correctness.
If we don't like the legislation we need to change the legislators, not the enforcers. We need discipline and respect to be reintroduced to our society as soon as possible, because they are the cement that holds everything together. No discipline + no respect = anarchy.
Mr Fingers chose to publicly demonstrate a lack of respect for authority and he chose to do it without considering the consequences. I'm sure he knows all about his rights, and clearly has no concept of responsibilities. He has now learned that there are consequences for his actions. These are lessons that we all need to have reinforced if we are to arrest the plummeting decline of our society.
It's interesting to compare the actions of the Met in respect of the most recent events with the 'strong-arm' tactics displayed so quickly by the hunt-ban protesters only last year. In the hunt-ban protests it was barriers up, sticks out and clobber them as hard as possible. With this lot is was 'softly-softly' all the way.
The differences displayed do re-inforce the belief that the entire police service has become a political tool. One might say it always has been, especially if the actions against the sufragettes is looked at, but most won't have read the history of that movement.
Nowadays, however, the media are able to get visual images of the actions taken onto our screens very quickly and judgements can and will be made by the general public.
Unfortunately the police service are not doing themselves any favours with their current attitudes. They can respond immediately to a guy who is alleged to have given a 'rude sign' to a police officer hiding in a samera van, they can spend several hours interviewing and warning someone who said publicly that 'male poofs should not be able to adopt children' (and quite rightly in my opinion). They can arrest a pensioner for displaying a warning sign in advance of a speed camera and drag him into court for slowing vehicles down whilst, at the same time, encouraging 'pace cars' driven by uninsured members of the public to deliberately hold up and baulk other drivers. (They are uninsured because they're not insured for 'pace making'). The list goes on.
I come from a generation which was taught to have respect and confidence in our Police Force. As a new OAP I am increasingly cynical of the performance of the police in general. I don't blame the ordinary officers, I blame the Chief Constables with their own agendas of personal aggrandisement, high salaries, future knighthoods and other honours and a fat index-linked pension. They are cocooned from the realities of everyday life and make ordinary people despair.
The actions of the presumably young and inexperienced officers in Essex should have been slapped down by their CC with him telling them to either grow up, grow thicker skins or find a more suitable career for their sensitive mental states. If they can't stand the heat then they should get out of the kitchen.
The differences displayed do re-inforce the belief that the entire police service has become a political tool. One might say it always has been, especially if the actions against the sufragettes is looked at, but most won't have read the history of that movement.
Nowadays, however, the media are able to get visual images of the actions taken onto our screens very quickly and judgements can and will be made by the general public.
Unfortunately the police service are not doing themselves any favours with their current attitudes. They can respond immediately to a guy who is alleged to have given a 'rude sign' to a police officer hiding in a samera van, they can spend several hours interviewing and warning someone who said publicly that 'male poofs should not be able to adopt children' (and quite rightly in my opinion). They can arrest a pensioner for displaying a warning sign in advance of a speed camera and drag him into court for slowing vehicles down whilst, at the same time, encouraging 'pace cars' driven by uninsured members of the public to deliberately hold up and baulk other drivers. (They are uninsured because they're not insured for 'pace making'). The list goes on.
I come from a generation which was taught to have respect and confidence in our Police Force. As a new OAP I am increasingly cynical of the performance of the police in general. I don't blame the ordinary officers, I blame the Chief Constables with their own agendas of personal aggrandisement, high salaries, future knighthoods and other honours and a fat index-linked pension. They are cocooned from the realities of everyday life and make ordinary people despair.
The actions of the presumably young and inexperienced officers in Essex should have been slapped down by their CC with him telling them to either grow up, grow thicker skins or find a more suitable career for their sensitive mental states. If they can't stand the heat then they should get out of the kitchen.
Cooperman said:
It's interesting to compare the actions of the Met in respect of the most recent events with the 'strong-arm' tactics displayed so quickly by the hunt-ban protesters only last year. In the hunt-ban protests it was barriers up, sticks out and clobber them as hard as possible. With this lot is was 'softly-softly' all the way.
The differences displayed do re-inforce the belief that the entire police service has become a political tool. One might say it always has been, especially if the actions against the sufragettes is looked at, but most won't have read the history of that movement.
Nowadays, however, the media are able to get visual images of the actions taken onto our screens very quickly and judgements can and will be made by the general public.
Unfortunately the police service are not doing themselves any favours with their current attitudes. They can respond immediately to a guy who is alleged to have given a 'rude sign' to a police officer hiding in a samera van, they can spend several hours interviewing and warning someone who said publicly that 'male poofs should not be able to adopt children' (and quite rightly in my opinion). They can arrest a pensioner for displaying a warning sign in advance of a speed camera and drag him into court for slowing vehicles down whilst, at the same time, encouraging 'pace cars' driven by uninsured members of the public to deliberately hold up and baulk other drivers. (They are uninsured because they're not insured for 'pace making'). The list goes on.
I come from a generation which was taught to have respect and confidence in our Police Force. As a new OAP I am increasingly cynical of the performance of the police in general. I don't blame the ordinary officers, I blame the Chief Constables with their own agendas of personal aggrandisement, high salaries, future knighthoods and other honours and a fat index-linked pension. They are cocooned from the realities of everyday life and make ordinary people despair.
The actions of the presumably young and inexperienced officers in Essex should have been slapped down by their CC with him telling them to either grow up, grow thicker skins or find a more suitable career for their sensitive mental states. If they can't stand the heat then they should get out of the kitchen.
Cooperman, I think you are missing the point. The Police are employed by the Government to enforce the law. The Government sets the agenda for policing and the Police do not undertake their jobs selectively. Yes, the Police service has very much become a political tool. You should be directing your ire at the politicians, not at their servants.
purpleheadedcerb said:
[quote=flemke]
Hear, hear. This is exactly the kind of thing S5 was designed for but Oh no, it might upset the politicians if we arrest these people, lets go after the easy targets.
For someone who has been in the industry, do you not think that comment is what we referred to in the industry as 'going off half cocked?'
Maybe you jumped ship an awful long time ago before current methods were used to deal with this issue!
Jumped ship 5 years ago but I'm obviously not up on the intricasies of policy or procedure changes. Interesting to note the criticism of the Police by Peter Hain and others regarding their shock at the lack of Police action with regard to the blatant incitement 'protesters'.
I can't even begin to calculate the damage that not seeming to act at the time of the protest has done to the rule of law in this country. They are obviously trying to back track by saying that they are compiling information on the hardcore protesters but I still think nicking them at the time would have been easier and more productive. No doubt, the gold commander didn't want to stick their neck out and do their job and so let it be someone elses problem. If it had been 50 football fans causing trouble they would have been dealt with very swiftly.
Scott
I have read that a protest against the protest was stopped by the police.
Also, protests against the Iraq invasion were swiftly dealt with on the spot, including the woman prosecuted for reading out the names of soldiers that died.
It looks like one or two people protesting are swiftly dealt with to prevent a complete breakdown in public order (
) while major demonstrations are allowed to continue.... Someone's frightened.Mon ami mate,
It does come down to where the buck stops. I don't think I've missed the point and I was pointing out that the CC's do seem to be completely controlled in their overt actions by the Home Office and that the personal agendas of the CC's seem to be to keep the gov't happy at all costs and for their own reasons.
I do feel that the CC's could improve the perception of the Police Service as a service acting in the public interests without giving up their dreams of honours and financial rewards. The subject of this thread is a case in point.
One might wonder what instruction/advice was given to Sir Ian Blair by the Home Office in respect of the hunting-ban demonstration and then of this weekends demonstrations.
Why, oh why, do the CC's allow the Home Office to continually make fools of them and their colleagues by instructing them to pursue politically correct overt policies when a lot of this can be seen to be at best a bit silly and at worst downright bizarre.
Do we believe that the Home Office interfere in the day-to-day actons of the CC's? For example, have instructions been given to concentrate on motoring offences and anti-government protesters, even if this means less effort is available for catching, for example, burglars?
What is clear is that whoever is 'pulling the strings' has lost their sense of reality in respect of what we overtaxed ordinary people want from our Police Service. What we don't want is more politically correct c**p at the expense of catching criminals.
It does come down to where the buck stops. I don't think I've missed the point and I was pointing out that the CC's do seem to be completely controlled in their overt actions by the Home Office and that the personal agendas of the CC's seem to be to keep the gov't happy at all costs and for their own reasons.
I do feel that the CC's could improve the perception of the Police Service as a service acting in the public interests without giving up their dreams of honours and financial rewards. The subject of this thread is a case in point.
One might wonder what instruction/advice was given to Sir Ian Blair by the Home Office in respect of the hunting-ban demonstration and then of this weekends demonstrations.
Why, oh why, do the CC's allow the Home Office to continually make fools of them and their colleagues by instructing them to pursue politically correct overt policies when a lot of this can be seen to be at best a bit silly and at worst downright bizarre.
Do we believe that the Home Office interfere in the day-to-day actons of the CC's? For example, have instructions been given to concentrate on motoring offences and anti-government protesters, even if this means less effort is available for catching, for example, burglars?
What is clear is that whoever is 'pulling the strings' has lost their sense of reality in respect of what we overtaxed ordinary people want from our Police Service. What we don't want is more politically correct c**p at the expense of catching criminals.
Mon Ami Mate said:
Cooperman, I think you are missing the point. The Police are employed by the Government to enforce the law. The Government sets the agenda for policing and the Police do not undertake their jobs selectively. Yes, the Police service has very much become a political tool. You should be directing your ire at the politicians, not at their servants.
I think you are missing the point, MAM.
Discretion was available for the police to exercise in this case.
They could have dismissed the gesture and forgotten about it, just as I would do if someone raised a finger to me. It's insignificant. It's nothing.
But they chose to spend valuable time chasing it up; time they can't afford to waste.
This comes across as personal vindictiveness, and deserves no respect.
If they're chasing targets imposed on them from above, that's hard luck and a matter between them and their bosses. To use this as means to boost "detected crime" is conning the Government and, at the end of the line, us. Targets are set to tackle crime, not farce.
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