Essex police - inane idiots
Discussion
mybrainhurts said:
Cooperman, I think you are missing the point. The Police are employed by the Government to enforce the law. The Government sets the agenda for policing and the Police do not undertake their jobs selectively. Yes, the Police service has very much become a political tool. You should be directing your ire at the politicians, not at their servants.
I think you are missing the point, MAM.
Discretion was available for the police to exercise in this case.
They could have dismissed the gesture and forgotten about it, just as I would do if someone raised a finger to me. It's insignificant. It's nothing.
But they chose to spend valuable time chasing it up; time they can't afford to waste.
This comes across as personal vindictiveness, and deserves no respect.
If they're chasing targets imposed on them from above, that's hard luck and a matter between them and their bosses. To use this as means to boost "detected crime" is conning the Government and, at the end of the line, us. Targets are set to tackle crime, not farce.
No, I don't agree with you. Why should the Policeman be expected to show any discretion at all? If you stick your fingers up at Policemen you should, in my opinion, expect not just to get nicked, but also smacked round the ear. I wouldn't stick my fingers up at a Policeman because I respect the Police and fear the consequences. It wouldn't have taken much "valuable time" to chase up, because a Policeman was witness to the act. The man was a stupid, smug idiot and he deserved all that he got and more.
Mon Ami Mate said:
No, I don't agree with you. Why should the Policeman be expected to show any discretion at all? If you stick your fingers up at Policemen you should, in my opinion, expect not just to get nicked, but also smacked round the ear. I wouldn't stick my fingers up at a Policeman because I respect the Police and fear the consequences. It wouldn't have taken much "valuable time" to chase up, because a Policeman was witness to the act. The man was a stupid, smug idiot and he deserved all that he got and more.
OK, we'll have to disagree, then.
All I can say is that, if I were embarking on a career in the police service I would go into it, knowing that I would be required to enforce some regulations that made me uncomfortable, and I would not be offended if others showed their distaste. I would exercise any valid discretion in such areas, ignore it and get on with important work.
I'm not cut out to do the job, but even my skin is thick enough to dismiss such nonsense.
mybrainhurts said:
Cooperman, I think you are missing the point. The Police are employed by the Government to enforce the law. The Government sets the agenda for policing and the Police do not undertake their jobs selectively. Yes, the Police service has very much become a political tool. You should be directing your ire at the politicians, not at their servants.
I think you are missing the point, MAM.
Discretion was available for the police to exercise in this case.
They could have dismissed the gesture and forgotten about it, just as I would do if someone raised a finger to me. It's insignificant. It's nothing.
But they chose to spend valuable time chasing it up; time they can't afford to waste.
This comes across as personal vindictiveness, and deserves no respect.
If they're chasing targets imposed on them from above, that's hard luck and a matter between them and their bosses. To use this as means to boost "detected crime" is conning the Government and, at the end of the line, us. Targets are set to tackle crime, not farce.
Or they could have simply said "You do that again sunshine and I'll throw the book at you"
Job done. Good job these two scammers weren't policing the miners strikes or heaven forbid a footie match 
I wonder just how offended they would have been then.Mon Ami Mate said:
No, I don't agree with you. Why should the Policeman be expected to show any discretion at all? If you stick your fingers up at Policemen you should, in my opinion, expect not just to get nicked, but also smacked round the ear. I wouldn't stick my fingers up at a Policeman because I respect the Police and fear the consequences.
MAM,
Just curious, and not being facetious, but how would you feel about giving two fingers to a camera itself (notwithstanding the bright sparks who recently did that while being photographed for speeding)?
How about to a civilian SCP worker whose chosen employment is to hide his/her camera van behind a large sign or some bushes along a perfectly clear, safe piece of road and catch out innocent, unsuspecting motorists?
Putting aside potential sanctions, should we show as much deference and respect to a police officer who is trying to catch out motorists in order to elevate his "detection rate" as we should show to a police officer who demonstrates good judgment and wisdom or who risks his/her life to serve the public?
We rightfully respect police officers as a class and for the principles which they should represent. Does that mean that we should condone every thing that every one of them does? Being a respectful and responsible person should not have to mean giving up one's ability to see differences and make judgments.
Mon Ami Mate said:
Cooperman, I think you are missing the point. The Police are employed by the Government to enforce the law. The Government sets the agenda for policing and the Police do not undertake their jobs selectively. Yes, the Police service has very much become a political tool. You should be directing your ire at the politicians, not at their servants.
I think you are missing the point, MAM.
Discretion was available for the police to exercise in this case.
They could have dismissed the gesture and forgotten about it, just as I would do if someone raised a finger to me. It's insignificant. It's nothing.
But they chose to spend valuable time chasing it up; time they can't afford to waste.
This comes across as personal vindictiveness, and deserves no respect.
If they're chasing targets imposed on them from above, that's hard luck and a matter between them and their bosses. To use this as means to boost "detected crime" is conning the Government and, at the end of the line, us. Targets are set to tackle crime, not farce.
No, I don't agree with you. Why should the Policeman be expected to show any discretion at all? If you stick your fingers up at Policemen you should, in my opinion, expect not just to get nicked, but also smacked round the ear. I wouldn't stick my fingers up at a Policeman because I respect the Police and fear the consequences. It wouldn't have taken much "valuable time" to chase up, because a Policeman was witness to the act. The man was a stupid, smug idiot and he deserved all that he got and more.
Wheras I and many others on this forum have absolutely no time for police pettiness. This is largely a matter of opinion. As I have said to you before the important issue is to ensure the dabate is continued. You appear to be biased in favour of "doing what the nice policeman tells you" Unfortunately in the real world we are now faced with resisting large numbers of silly laws. I, unlike you would be in favour of those who sat in judgement of "fingers" being taken outside the court by the mob and shown the errror of their ways. The reason I think this is because the rule of the majority has been hijacked by the political trash. We are now subject to being biased in favour of minority views and factions. While in an ideal world the police would be respected, in relity they now represent a minority who are the enemy of the public. They are therefore fair game.
nonegreen said:
Wheras I and many others on this forum have absolutely no time for police pettiness. This is largely a matter of opinion. As I have said to you before the important issue is to ensure the dabate is continued. You appear to be biased in favour of "doing what the nice policeman tells you" Unfortunately in the real world we are now faced with resisting large numbers of silly laws. I, unlike you would be in favour of those who sat in judgement of "fingers" being taken outside the court by the mob and shown the errror of their ways. The reason I think this is because the rule of the majority has been hijacked by the political trash. We are now subject to being biased in favour of minority views and factions. While in an ideal world the police would be respected, in relity they now represent a minority who are the enemy of the public. They are therefore fair game.
Nonegreen, I'm with you, right up until the last couple of sentences. Yes, we are now faced with large numbers of silly laws. Yes, I do believe that the rule of the majority has been hijacked by the political trash. But why do you have such anger towards the Police? Surely the QED is to direct your anger at the legislators who introduce the silly laws and hijack society, not the people whose job it is to enforce the law? What do you expect the Police to do other than their jobs?
Mon Ami Mate said:
Wheras I and many others on this forum have absolutely no time for police pettiness. This is largely a matter of opinion. As I have said to you before the important issue is to ensure the dabate is continued. You appear to be biased in favour of "doing what the nice policeman tells you" Unfortunately in the real world we are now faced with resisting large numbers of silly laws. I, unlike you would be in favour of those who sat in judgement of "fingers" being taken outside the court by the mob and shown the errror of their ways. The reason I think this is because the rule of the majority has been hijacked by the political trash. We are now subject to being biased in favour of minority views and factions. While in an ideal world the police would be respected, in relity they now represent a minority who are the enemy of the public. They are therefore fair game.
Nonegreen, I'm with you, right up until the last couple of sentences. Yes, we are now faced with large numbers of silly laws. Yes, I do believe that the rule of the majority has been hijacked by the political trash. But why do you have such anger towards the Police? Surely the QED is to direct your anger at the legislators who introduce the silly laws and hijack society, not the people whose job it is to enforce the law? What do you expect the Police to do other than their jobs?
I expect them to turn a blind eye to fingers.
I expect them to make a mess of prosecuting the people who they know should not be prosecuted.
I expect them in short to behave ethically.
I expect them to be able to sleep at night and not grovel in the sewer with Blair and the like.
There are ways of doing it, you dont have to compromise your career, you can circumvent the silliness. The police will get no respect from the public until they realise that enforcing silly laws should be done badly.
Oh and as for the last line that you disagree with, how would you highlight and eventually deal with the fact that our majority representation has been hijacked? Carrying on respecting the law is not an answer because is offers no conduit for change. What would you do?
>> Edited by nonegreen on Tuesday 7th February 13:43
james_j said:
If you were in a large chanting crowd, shouting obsenities (and maybe even showing placards suggesting the putting to death of people) the police may just leave you alone while "considering their actions"...
And whilst arresting a couple of non-protestors promoting freedom of speech........
nonegreen said:
I expect them to turn a blind eye to fingers.
I expect them to make a mess of prosecuting the people who they know should not be prosecuted.
I expect them in short to behave ethically.
I expect them to be able to sleep at night and not grovel in the sewer with Blair and the like.
There are ways of doing it, you dont have to compromise your career, you can circumvent the silliness. The police will get no respect from the public until they realise that enforcing silly laws should be done badly.
But they have chosen careers as enforcers of the law. You can't be an enforcer of the law, if you aren't prepared to enforce the law. It doesn't matter is they personally agree with the law or not - it's clear from reading the personal opinions of many BiBs on these pages that many of them privately do not respect laws that they are made to enforce. This only matters to you if the law in question is one that you personally don't agree with. How would you feel if a policeman chose to turn a blind eye to a rapist becuase he didn't agree with the rape law?
I say again, your ire should be directed at the monkeys who make the stupid laws and who direct the Police to enforce them.
Mon Ami Mate said:
I expect them to turn a blind eye to fingers.
I expect them to make a mess of prosecuting the people who they know should not be prosecuted.
I expect them in short to behave ethically.
I expect them to be able to sleep at night and not grovel in the sewer with Blair and the like.
There are ways of doing it, you dont have to compromise your career, you can circumvent the silliness. The police will get no respect from the public until they realise that enforcing silly laws should be done badly.
But they have chosen careers as enforcers of the law. You can't be an enforcer of the law, if you aren't prepared to enforce the law. It doesn't matter is they personally agree with the law or not - it's clear from reading the personal opinions of many BiBs on these pages that many of them privately do not respect laws that they are made to enforce. This only matters to you if the law in question is one that you personally don't agree with. How would you feel if a policeman chose to turn a blind eye to a rapist becuase he didn't agree with the rape law?
I say again, your ire should be directed at the monkeys who make the stupid laws and who direct the Police to enforce them.
NVQs are a complete failure that has no respect from end users or employers. The reason for this is because they are universally and internationally subject to contempt from education and training professionals. This is despite the huge pressure brought about by government who have squandered billions on lowering standards. The question of police making judgement is not about whether I personally agree with it or not. If I was out on a limb here then I would simply look for another place to live. Truth is the vast majority disagree with current road policing policy. A policeman who disagrees with the law on rape would be out on his own. One who disagrees with 100% speed limit enforcement would be among the majority and at least in tune with public opinion.
Mon Ami Mate said:I understand the point you are making but I think you underestimate the sheer level of discretion available to police officers when going about their duties.
I say again, your ire should be directed at the monkeys who make the stupid laws and who direct the Police to enforce them.
Discretion and judgement are as important as the law in which they operate. You've only got to look at the speed camera debate to see how this works - If the limit is 70mph, how come all speed cameras on motorways or dual carriageways aren't set to 71mph? It just doesn't work. Would you like to see any police effort expended to prevent kids 'exposing themselves' when they go for a pee up the nearest tree at the side of the road? No, because it's a waste of time.
You can't blame your boss whenever you screw up, despite the obvious desire to do so!
Mon Ami Mate said:
[quote=mybrainhurts][quote=Mon Ami Mate]Cooperman, I think you are missing the point. The Police are employed by the Government to enforce the law. The Government sets the agenda for policing and the Police do not undertake their jobs selectively. Yes, the Police service has very much become a political tool. You should be directing your ire at the politicians, not at their servants.
The headline in my local paper tonight is "Licence to Steal". Apparently Dorset police have written to all shop keepers to say "Don't call us for thefts worth less than £75". They also warn store managers against detaining shoplifters whilst awaiting police to arrive - "in cases it breaches their human rights".
I thought from Mon Ami mates post above that "the Police are employed by the Government to enforce the law - and do not undertake their jobs selectively". What a load of rubbish, of course they are and in the case that started this particular post they are vindictive as well.
We've really passed over the most relevant point here.
Much has been spouted about this being a case of breaking the law....
Let's not forget....the law is broken only if the police officer is offened.
There was no need to turn a blind eye and ignore an offence...all it takes is Mr Plod to think Am I offended, or am I not offended?
Take the latter choice and there's no law be be enforced.
Take the former and there's an excellent opportunity for vengeance and getting the detection rate up. Grubby attitude and unprofessional.
Much has been spouted about this being a case of breaking the law....
Let's not forget....the law is broken only if the police officer is offened.
There was no need to turn a blind eye and ignore an offence...all it takes is Mr Plod to think Am I offended, or am I not offended?
Take the latter choice and there's no law be be enforced.
Take the former and there's an excellent opportunity for vengeance and getting the detection rate up. Grubby attitude and unprofessional.
Hi All,
I've read this thread with great interest.
To me the point is Yes, it is wrong and impolite to stick your fingers up at the Police but immediately going to the trouble to find the car owners address and attend and issue a fixed penalty seems like enforcing the law with a sledgehammer..
In my opinion there is alot of Public displeasure about Camera Vans with Officers sitting in doing no more than 'manning' the van. (Often reading the Paper etc) This at a time when we are frequently hearing in the News about the need for more officers on our streets and a significant increase in Violent Crime etc.
This i feel is causing a backlash and in the odd instance a visual indication of people's frustration.
There is also the big debate about Road traffic enforcement about many people feeling there are double standards and the Police are not always 'Practicing what they Preach' or more seriously 'Not Practicing what they Enforce on Others'
I frequently hear the words Hypocrisy used in these circumstances. And to be honest i have seen this first hand on a number of occasions which sadly undermines my Respect for the Police.
I would also like to add that a good few years ago we used to have a local Policeman who used to visit our School and run the Cycling Proficiency test etc. A propper Local Bobby. He used to get quite a load of cheek as you can imagine and the occasional abuse.
But he always came across as fair and more importantly Human. Years later as an Adult when i saw him i would always give him respect as from his actions of the past he had earnt it.
Cutting to the chase there seems to be a huge number of instances where Police are Selectively enforcing the law by numbers and £ signs.
Being a Policeman is a position of authority, not power. Just like a Teacher. And like a Teacher the Police are on a pedistool with their actions under scrutiny. A Teacher who simply lashes out with Punishment at the slightest provocation does not gain respect. But a Teacher who shows control and withstraint does.
Dare i say perhaps the answer is that a number of our Police force should literally go Back to School.
Cheers,
Nick
I've read this thread with great interest.
To me the point is Yes, it is wrong and impolite to stick your fingers up at the Police but immediately going to the trouble to find the car owners address and attend and issue a fixed penalty seems like enforcing the law with a sledgehammer..
In my opinion there is alot of Public displeasure about Camera Vans with Officers sitting in doing no more than 'manning' the van. (Often reading the Paper etc) This at a time when we are frequently hearing in the News about the need for more officers on our streets and a significant increase in Violent Crime etc.
This i feel is causing a backlash and in the odd instance a visual indication of people's frustration.
There is also the big debate about Road traffic enforcement about many people feeling there are double standards and the Police are not always 'Practicing what they Preach' or more seriously 'Not Practicing what they Enforce on Others'
I frequently hear the words Hypocrisy used in these circumstances. And to be honest i have seen this first hand on a number of occasions which sadly undermines my Respect for the Police.
I would also like to add that a good few years ago we used to have a local Policeman who used to visit our School and run the Cycling Proficiency test etc. A propper Local Bobby. He used to get quite a load of cheek as you can imagine and the occasional abuse.
But he always came across as fair and more importantly Human. Years later as an Adult when i saw him i would always give him respect as from his actions of the past he had earnt it.
Cutting to the chase there seems to be a huge number of instances where Police are Selectively enforcing the law by numbers and £ signs.
Being a Policeman is a position of authority, not power. Just like a Teacher. And like a Teacher the Police are on a pedistool with their actions under scrutiny. A Teacher who simply lashes out with Punishment at the slightest provocation does not gain respect. But a Teacher who shows control and withstraint does.
Dare i say perhaps the answer is that a number of our Police force should literally go Back to School.
Cheers,
Nick
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