Ferrari vs truck at 250kph

[flemke]

mg6b said:

Travelling fast in motor cars is inherently more dangerous and a higher risk factor than travelling at a moderate or slower speed. That is indisputable!

mg6b,

Other things being equal, yes, your point is indisputable. In most every part of life, however, other things are not equal. So too with driving.
The issues relating to travelling faster than the posted limit are complicated. We can get into questions such as:
- why the same limit should apply at all times to all people in all cars, or
- why in a democratic society we should be presumed guilty (of Dangerous Driving, which is indiscriminately inferred from speeding), notwithstanding that actual guiltiness (of Dangerous Driving) likely occured no more than once in every thousand speeding violations, or
- how limits are set in the first place.
These questions and others make it difficult to respect this area of traffic law and enforcement (I was grateful for your recent reminder of the possible consequences of disrespect; the power of the State to punish, however, is separate from the validity of the punishment).
So there are many ways in which this area of traffic law and enforcement can be challenged and possibly proved to be indefensible. We who are passionate about motoring do ourselves a disservice, however, if we rely only on the intellectual confusion and sloppy thinking surrounding speed limits and their enforcement. What we can never wish away is the indisputable fact, as you put it, that

mg6b said:

More speed = less time to react More speed = higher impact velocity

The problem with the above laws is that they just address the consequences of accidents. They (only) slightly address the causes of accidents. Far worse is the other-things-being-equal bit: they completely ignore the probability of an accident. This is much more than a sin of omission.

It is in the nature of being a sentient creature that concentration improves with mental stimulation. Just as what you said about consequences is indisputable, so is this.. We can wave away this weakness as being unworthy of respect or something that decent, God-fearing persons should rise above, but it is a fundamental fact of life. It has evolved over aeons and it ain't going away any time soon.

You cannot drive well if you do not concentrate on your driving. The more that arbitrary and often inappropriate regulations are imposed on one's driving, the less scope the driver has to make judgments for him- or herself.
I daresay that, when driving, we've all at least once or twice begun to feel drowsy and come close to nodding off. Did that happen when we were stimulated? Did it happen when, say, we were on a derestricted autobahn and had the complete freedom and responsibility to judge moment-to-moment what our speed should be? No way. It happened when we were being forced to behave robotically, whether being inappropriately limited to 70ish on an empty motorway or being stuck in heavy traffic with no options for change.
I'm not suggesting that a massive number of accidents are caused by drivers falling asleep. Rather, falling asleep is the extreme version of the lack of concentration that we all suffer, to an increasing extent, as more and more the freedom (and the apparent need) to make judgments is stripped away from us by the State, which is convinced that it can make those judgements better than citizens could ever do.

We don't need a nation of slower drivers. We need a nation of more involved, more alert, more serious drivers. That is to say, we need BETTER drivers. I have yet to see a form of human endeavour at which people got better by being less involved and having less expected of them. Are you aware of any, mg6b?

You may gainsay my assertions, but, if I am wrong, can you explain why the German autobahn is not a sea of carnage? Can you explain why British road fatalities have flat-lined in the decade since speed enforcement has become much harsher and more conspicuous, even though cars are hugely safer, and the emergency sevices are more capable, than they were ten years ago?

It's a balance. The wrong speed is wrong - of course it is. But the methods by which the State has tried to induce people to drive at the "right" speed have frequently been more harmful than the alleged problem itself.

[victormeldrew]

It suppose it was inevitable this would devolve into the usual speed debate, but that's not what I intended. I just wanted to show some respect and appreciation for the guys who have the unpleasant task of scraping up the remains when some charlie gets it wrong big style - I had not appreciated quite how unpleasant that task was until I saw the horrifically mutilated remains of the Ferrari driver. Lets just say that it wasn't until I noticed a head in the middle of the gore that I realised I was looking at a human body. Really, really unpleasant.

[mg6b]

victormeldrew said:

It suppose it was inevitable this would devolve into the usual speed debate, but that's not what I intended. I just wanted to show some respect and appreciation for the guys who have the unpleasant task of scraping up the remains when some charlie gets it wrong big style - I had not appreciated quite how unpleasant that task was until I saw the horrifically mutilated remains of the Ferrari driver. Lets just say that it wasn't until I noticed a head in the middle of the gore that I realised I was looking at a human body. Really, really unpleasant.

It is. The difficulty is not dealing with the physical mess which is obviously unpleasant. The difficulty is dealing with the human side of it afterwards. Dead bodies are dead bodies. They are extinct from life and therefore feeling. Other than the tragedy for the person who's broken body is being scraped up, there is no link to the emotional side unless you happen to be unlucky enough to know that person.

The difficult bit in dealing with this type of mess is the emotional one. Liaison with those left behind is far more difficult to manage and deal with. Trying to explain the reasons why, trying to explain the extent of blame, trying to explain that lives that continue will be affected until they themselves die are the big problems that those dealing with violent and sudden death have to manage and come to personal terms with.

[whatever]

victormeldrew said:

It suppose it was inevitable this would devolve into the usual speed debate, but that's not what I intended. I just wanted to show some respect and appreciation for the guys who have the unpleasant task of scraping up the remains when some charlie gets it wrong big style - I had not appreciated quite how unpleasant that task was until I saw the horrifically mutilated remains of the Ferrari driver. Lets just say that it wasn't until I noticed a head in the middle of the gore that I realised I was looking at a human body. Really, really unpleasant.

It's a worthy thought. Same thing applies to kids who play on railway lines (if that sort of thing still goes on?) Or kids who run out into the street or all sorts of stuff.

Not nice for the person with the scraper and plastic bag; same goes for the parents.

(Obviously "not nice" as used here is 'unimaginable understatement').

[flemke]

victormeldrew said:

It suppose it was inevitable this would devolve into the usual speed debate, but that's not what I intended. I just wanted to show some respect and appreciation for the guys who have the unpleasant task of scraping up the remains when some charlie gets it wrong big style - I had not appreciated quite how unpleasant that task was until I saw the horrifically mutilated remains of the Ferrari driver. Lets just say that it wasn't until I noticed a head in the middle of the gore that I realised I was looking at a human body. Really, really unpleasant.

VM,

Sorry, I didn't mean to hijack. I see now that by responding to a minor digression I was creating a major digression.
Your intention is a good thought. The folks who have to deal with these incidents are not appreciated for what they must have to go through to keep things "nice" for the rest of us.

[safespeed]

flemke said:

The folks who have to deal with these incidents are not appreciated for what they must have to go through to keep things "nice" for the rest of us.

Absolutely right.

But perhaps if we (as a society) made less effort to keep things 'nice' we'd have more appreciation of the dangers and it'd happen less. Same applies to pictures from war zones - isn't it wrong to insulate the public from the reality?

[gorvid]

Would a link to these images allow us to decide for ouselves....?

[MartinD]

gorvid said:

Would a link to these images allow us to decide for ouselves....?

I could email the biker ones I have, I only looked at them once when I got them, thinking 'am I looking at what I think I'm looking at'
I've not looked at them again & probably never will
I would not recommend anybody look at them by choice, but I think I can understand you curiosity if you haven't see anything like them before.

[gorvid]

Thanks - I would like to see... I would like also to see the Ferrari ones mentioned earlier.

I must admit to a morbid curiosity for all things like this...although I am very rarely shocked or offended by things of this nature. However this paticular kind of image is a real head-straightener for those of us who play with cars and bikes...

[mg6b]

gorvid said:

I must admit to a morbid curiosity for all things like this....

Take a look at www.ogrish.com if you want to see that sort of image. You can search for what you like there!

[victormeldrew]

gorvid said:

Would a link to these images allow us to decide for ouselves....?

Maybe, but I am not going to host the pictures, sorry.

I can't agree with Paul (Safespeed) on this one; while the general adult population may well benefit from this sort of education, there is no effective way of ensuring minors don't get the same on t'internet. What may be a shock to an adult is quite likely to be damaging to a minor, IMHO. I am having difficuly getting them out of my head myself, and had real problems eating my pizza last night.

>> Edited by victormeldrew on Monday 13th February 14:46

[AMG Merc]

This one not in the gruesome league but "interesting"...

www.damnfunnypictures.com/html/Crazy-Ferrari-Crash.html

[towman]

The reason people want to see these pics is exactly the same as why people always slow when passing an accident scene. If someone works out what it is, please advise the rest of us.

[Plotloss]

towman said:

The reason people want to see these pics is exactly the same as why people always slow when passing an accident scene. If someone works out what it is, please advise the rest of us.

I've often thought its due to the fact you cant experience your own death until its all too late, so people gawp at others misfortune