Set the pace - Make the commitment
Discussion
vonhosen said:The answer simply is it isn't necessary. Driving by numbers does not make you a safe driver any more than painting by numbers makes you Leonardo Da Vinci
I'm only asking why glancing at the speedo for a fraction of a second is dangerous or careless ?
The answer simply is it isn't.
vonhosen said:
It doesn't take long to glance at the speedo, just like it doesn't to glance in the mirrors.
One is a necessary check, the other isnt, so why do it?
I consider being aware of the amount of speed one is carrying a necessary check.
In relation to overtakes ....see my post above.
It becomes a non issue if having checked your speed before commencing the overtake, you aren't going.
I consider the relative rates of closing with the vehicle im considering overtaking to be a hell of a lot more important than the numbers the speedo might indicate!!!
The numbers aint important unless you wish to drive to the very letter of the half assed law.
Mirrors necessary, speedo-nada. I should and do know but im not at liberty to tell you why.
Judgement in an overtake is a matter of distance and the rate at which separations and positions are changing. The human eye and mind cannot extract data and perform calculations on these issues at the required rate to inform safe behaviour. Therefore glancing at the speedo is redundant and a waste of valuable resources. It is related purely to legality and once again we see the law mitigating against safe behaviour.
Road traffic law and safety have parted company. The law is a jackass.
Note for BiB: I am not saying that enforcers of the law are jackasses. By 'the law' I mean the legislation.
Road traffic law and safety have parted company. The law is a jackass.
Note for BiB: I am not saying that enforcers of the law are jackasses. By 'the law' I mean the legislation.
turbobloke said:
snip
The rationale for looking at a speedo during an overtake is what? In reality and in this thread, it's to obtain information primarily relating to legality, not safety. The reason for checking mirrors is what? To obtain information primarily related to safety.
As many people have said many times, safety and the law have parted company and this is a very serious systemic problem.
not for me it's not. I like to know my speed as it's easy to accelerate in a straight line to quite high speeds. I like to know how fast I am going. This allows me to plan ahead. I don't want to do that with only a visceral indication of speed. I drive a small number of very varied cars.
Take an example of a road I know well and often overtake on. There is a straight with a LH bend at the end and then an opening on the left and one on the right. Here's some good weather examples.
My Caterham will accelerate well, will go round the left hander with a snick on the brakes and arrive at the lh opening. If there is a car pulling out of there, I would be knacked. The cat has great brakes, but on lifting off in a lh bend it'll spin.
My Galaxy can't get round the bend well so I have to lose a lot of speed so I wont be going too quick on approaching the lh opening (it overtakes fine btw).
The Evo does everything exceptionally so it'll handle the bend and stop in time if something is coming out the opening.
The Clio 182 is a bit average at everything so wont go round the corner too quick and wont stop too well lifting off in a lh bend.
All these cars give very different impressions of the speed they are doing.
Why on earth would I not look at the speedo as one of the inputs to my planning for the overtake, the lh bend and the lh side hazard??
Thoughts of the nsl never enter my head.
Graham
vonhosen said:Why gawp? Scameras, that's why. Close enough isn't good enough. And we both know that no advanced driving course anywhere teaches speedo observation mid overtake... Unless you know otherwise!
Ity could be argued that looking at your speedo during an overtake IS DWDCA.
Why ?
Simple if you think about it. If I took my eyes off the road to look at the radio and had a crash it's DWDCA. What's the difference if I take my eyes off the road to look at the speedo?
Hint, none. I'm still not watching for hazards while my eyes are inside the car.
Speedo gawping is dangerous and not taught on any advanced driving system I am aware of.
Why do you need to gawp at it ?
It doesn't take long to glance at the speedo, just like it doesn't to glance in the mirrors.
The required information can be gained in a fraction of a second. You'll be saying best not blink when driving next.
In advanced driving you are expected to know your speed.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 25th March 22:15
Eyes outside the car.gridgway said:In an overtake, I genuinely doubt a speedo reading has any useful purpose, for one thing you can't process the information from it and the positional and separational information fast enough, and for another thing the speedo will be wrong. So we're back to judgements made with eyes outside the car. Thank God.
I like to know how fast I am going. This allows me to plan ahead.
again not at all. It doesn't matter if the speedo is wrong in absolute terms thats just scamera talk again. An overtake is just another part of driving. Before it, in it, after it you keep the same regime as at any other time.
Observations outside, scanning the instruments inside, planning for what's coming next. If you suddenly need tunnel vision when overtaking, something is wrong. I find the speedo strangely useful in many of my driving manoeuvres. Maybe I'm a crap driver like many others, but I dont find the need to tuen off that one inpout during overtaking.
Graham
Observations outside, scanning the instruments inside, planning for what's coming next. If you suddenly need tunnel vision when overtaking, something is wrong. I find the speedo strangely useful in many of my driving manoeuvres. Maybe I'm a crap driver like many others, but I dont find the need to tuen off that one inpout during overtaking.
Graham
gridgway said:
not for me it's not. I like to know my speed as it's easy to accelerate in a straight line to quite high speeds. I like to know how fast I am going. This allows me to plan ahead. I don't want to do that with only a visceral indication of speed.
You may well like to know what your terminal speed reached at the end of the overtake but its entirely unnecessary to know that unless youre sticking to what the law tells you to.
So you want to know what speed youre at. So what? What does that enable you to calculate?
Nothing. The human brain isnt capable of making accurate calcs of numerical distances and speeds and stopping distances especially when its doing other things like performing an overtake.
The rate of overtake is of far more importance than the numerical speeds you attain, because unlike numerical speeds, the rate of overtake (which is something you CAN get a handle on as it occurs) does actually give you important info during the overtake.
That needle on the speedo tells you just one thing: Youve broken the law.
Deltafox said:
I consider the relative rates of closing with the vehicle im considering overtaking to be a hell of a lot more important than the numbers the speedo might indicate!!!
The numbers aint important unless you wish to drive to the very letter of the half assed law.
Mirrors necessary, speedo-nada. I should and do know but im not at liberty to tell you why.
I personally wouldn't be looking at the speedo during an overtake.
But I would still be periodically looking at my speedo, even if there weren't any speed limits, so that I would be aware of the speed I am carrying approaching situations.
I'm merely questioning the assertion that having a brief glance at teh speedo would amount to DWDCA.
vonhosen said:That's my assertion. If looking inside the car at the radio can be DWDCA, then so could looking at the speedo. The mechanics are exactly the same.
I consider the relative rates of closing with the vehicle im considering overtaking to be a hell of a lot more important than the numbers the speedo might indicate!!!
The numbers aint important unless you wish to drive to the very letter of the half assed law.
Mirrors necessary, speedo-nada. I should and do know but im not at liberty to tell you why.
I personally wouldn't be looking at the speedo during an overtake.
But I would still be periodically looking at my speedo, even if there weren't any speed limits, so that I would be aware of the speed I am carrying approaching situations.
I'm merely questioning the assertion that having a brief glance at teh speedo would amount to DWDCA.
BliarOut said:
I consider the relative rates of closing with the vehicle im considering overtaking to be a hell of a lot more important than the numbers the speedo might indicate!!!
The numbers aint important unless you wish to drive to the very letter of the half assed law.
Mirrors necessary, speedo-nada. I should and do know but im not at liberty to tell you why.
I personally wouldn't be looking at the speedo during an overtake.
But I would still be periodically looking at my speedo, even if there weren't any speed limits, so that I would be aware of the speed I am carrying approaching situations.
I'm merely questioning the assertion that having a brief glance at teh speedo would amount to DWDCA.
And why is looking at any of the dials or even the radio, for a fraction of a second DWDCA ?
vonhosen said:
I consider the relative rates of closing with the vehicle im considering overtaking to be a hell of a lot more important than the numbers the speedo might indicate!!!
The numbers aint important unless you wish to drive to the very letter of the half assed law.
Mirrors necessary, speedo-nada. I should and do know but im not at liberty to tell you why.
I personally wouldn't be looking at the speedo during an overtake.
But I would still be periodically looking at my speedo, even if there weren't any speed limits, so that I would be aware of the speed I am carrying approaching situations.
I'm merely questioning the assertion that having a brief glance at teh speedo would amount to DWDCA.
And why is looking at any of the dials or even the radio, for a fraction of a second DWDCA ?
Well it happened like this... I just looked down at the radio for a second and when I looked up the traffic had stopped and I ran into the back of it.
You're nicked sonny.BliarOut said:
Well it happened like this... I just looked down at the radio for a second and when I looked up the traffic had stopped and I ran into the back of it.
That's careless timing & management of the situation then, not the act of having a brief glance itself.
Of course if you look at something <gawp> for too long it could become without due care, but a brief glance of the speedo, no. A reasonable safe & competent driver is expected to be able to perform those checks safely within their driving.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 25th March 23:07
BliarOut said:
Well it happened like this... I just looked down at the radio for a second and when I looked up the traffic had stopped and I ran into the back of it.
Well in that case, you deserve to be nicked as you are crap at observation and being able to stop in the amount of visible space!! :-)
I just can't see what is so bad about looking at the speedo. I look at the rev counter to see when I am about to run out of revs (relying on hearing alone doesn't work), I look at the instruments for warnings (it is pretty scary when the OP light comes on in the middle of an overtake). I still have time to look front and back, down the lh side as part of judging the pulling back in. It's easy, just part of driving and nothing to do with keeping in the speed limit.
Nighty nighty.
Graham
vonhosen said:So how does this fit in with the "Thou must not speed even during an overtake" rationale? Unless I'm very much mistaken there seems to be a bit of a conflict here. Checking the speedo during an overtake is always going to be bad time management.
Well it happened like this... I just looked down at the radio for a second and when I looked up the traffic had stopped and I ran into the back of it.
That's careless timing & management of the situation then, not the act of having a brief glance itself.
Of course if you look at something <gawp> for too long it could become without due care, but a brief glance of the speedo, no. A reasonable safe & competent driver is expected to be able to perform those checks safely within their driving.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 25th March 23:07
Get out of that without moving
BliarOut said:
Well it happened like this... I just looked down at the radio for a second and when I looked up the traffic had stopped and I ran into the back of it.
That's careless timing & management of the situation then, not the act of having a brief glance itself.
Of course if you look at something <gawp> for too long it could become without due care, but a brief glance of the speedo, no. A reasonable safe & competent driver is expected to be able to perform those checks safely within their driving.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 25th March 23:07
Get out of that without moving
I already said, I make a judgement prior to starting the overtake as to whether I will be able to achieve a safe differential between me & my intended overtake. I'll base that on the relationship between our speeds, the speed limit & the vision available. If it can't be done with a good safety margin without going over the speed limit, I won't go on the overtake. There will be no need for me to do a check of the speedo because I won't be going.
The bit about checking the speedo mid overtake is not something that I'm necessarily going to be doing, though I don't have a problem with it per se, I was stating it doesn't amount to DWDCA if you do have a glance.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 25th March 23:26
vonhosen said:
It doesn't take long to glance at the speedo, just like it doesn't to glance in the mirrors.
One is a necessary check, the other isnt, so why do it?
I consider being aware of the amount of speed one is carrying a necessary check...
When overtaking, what part does the indicated speed play in you descision making?
gridgway said:
I don't understand this speedo thing. Many people quote it as distracting from driving. I think it's just one of the inputs to driving well. Knowing your speed is a key input in the driving plan. It's trivial to do and important to know.
It takes a very small percentage of attention to know the speed you are going. If you need to add that percentage back to keep safe then in my experience the margin of safety is too small.
I think that as the govt can be accused of using the speed kills as dogma, then the group of people who are in the diametrically opposed camp (I'm nervous of finding the right label) use an equally dogmatic position.
"looking at the speedo takes time away from outside observation so adds to danger. Therefore I shouldnt be penalised for going faster than the speed limit".
Countering dogma with dogma is not a very persuasive argument for me.
Graham
It *isn't* a 'small fraction of attention' - it takes about a second to check your speedo. I devised a self testing method. It's on www.safespeed.org.uk/speedo.html
One second at 60mph is 88 feet driving blind. That's usually OK - we have to plan to cope with that sort of degree of necessary inattention. But we have a LOT of crashes where inattention is a root cause, and MORE speedo checks can ONLY add to those crashes.
For every crash there might be about 10 near misses (In fact it's certain to be true for {some definition of near miss}). People fail to understand that disturbances to drivers habits can very easily tip some of those harmless near misses into dangerous crashes.
Read about 'the tiger': www.safespeed.org.uk/tiger.html
safespeed said:
It *isn't* a 'small fraction of attention' - it takes about a second to check your speedo. I devised a self testing method. It's on www.safespeed.org.uk/speedo.html
One second at 60mph is 88 feet driving blind. That's usually OK - we have to plan to cope with that sort of degree of necessary inattention. But we have a LOT of crashes where inattention is a root cause, and MORE speedo checks can ONLY add to those crashes.
For every crash there might be about 10 near misses (In fact it's certain to be true for {some definition of near miss}). People fail to understand that disturbances to drivers habits can very easily tip some of those harmless near misses into dangerous crashes.
Read about 'the tiger': www.safespeed.org.uk/tiger.html
There are greater causes of inattention in poor drivers than checking the speedo. They could start by not taking any phone calls in the car, turning off the radio, not putting their make up on, not eating whilst driving, not reading maps or work papers etc etc. Checking the speedo pales into insignificance, yet the people who do all of the above will complain that speed cameras make them concentrate on their speedo.
Just like anything else in driving checking the speedo is something you build into your management system. A reasonable competent driver is expected to do it at safe well chosen times.
Checking the speedo & awareness of your speed in relation to the limit is not a disturbance, it's a required skill of a reasonable competent driver as tested in your DSA test.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 25th March 23:39
vonhosen said:
Checking the speedo & awareness of your speed in relation to the limit is not a disturbance, it's a required skill of a reasonable competent driver as tested in your DSA test.
It may be legally required, but is it required for safety?
Could you drive a car perfectly safely if the speedo didn't work?
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