Set the pace - Make the commitment

[7db]

apache said:

7db said: apache said: I thought you were BiB, sorry Not me. I'm on the other side. apart from beards, right?

It's a mystery to me why so many BiB are hairy - I assumed it was something to do with shift work messing with shaving routines.

[vonhosen]

safespeed said:

vonhosen said: safespeed said: Actually it doesn't matter very much what drivers do with their hands and feet. Really Good operation of vehicle controls not an important part of driving then ? Compared with observation, concentration and attitude? That's right - it's almost irrelevant. What good is holding the wheel nicely if your eyes are tight shut? Quite a few of the things you teach are valuable proxies for discipline and attitude.

That's a crock & you know it.
What good's the right attitude if you don't possess the physical skills ?

Whilst physical handling skills aren't the lion share in the sum requirement of a good safe driver, they could never be considered an irrelevance. Your driving is only as good as the weakest link within the sum required components.

It is not so much where our strengths lay that determines our ultimate ability levels, it's where our weaknesses put us. The best drivers have fewest weaknesses & shine by making the fewest errors of any kind.




>> Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 12th April 23:49

[s2art]

vonhosen said:

safespeed said: vonhosen said: safespeed said: Actually it doesn't matter very much what drivers do with their hands and feet. Really Good operation of vehicle controls not an important part of driving then ? Compared with observation, concentration and attitude? That's right - it's almost irrelevant. What good is holding the wheel nicely if your eyes are tight shut? Quite a few of the things you teach are valuable proxies for discipline and attitude. That's a crock & you know it. What good's the right attitude if you don't possess the physical skills ? Whilst physical handling skills aren't the lion share in the sum requirement of a good safe driver, they could never be considered an irrelevance. Your driving is only as good as the weakest link within the sum required components. It is not so much where our strengths lay that determines our ultimate ability levels, it's where our weaknesses put us. The best drivers have fewest weaknesses & shine by making the fewest errors of any kind. >> Edited by vonhosen on Wednesday 12th April 23:49

I sort of know where Safespeed is coming from. I happen to know someone who is physically handicapped, has to drive an auto, hand controls etc. Never make a track driver, but is safer than most people on the road. Basically his observation, concentration and attitude are excellent, and he drives within the envelope of his physical limitations.
So I guess physical ability is secondary where safety is concerned.

[safespeed]

vonhosen said:

safespeed said: vonhosen said: safespeed said: Actually it doesn't matter very much what drivers do with their hands and feet. Really Good operation of vehicle controls not an important part of driving then ? Compared with observation, concentration and attitude? That's right - it's almost irrelevant. What good is holding the wheel nicely if your eyes are tight shut? Quite a few of the things you teach are valuable proxies for discipline and attitude. That's a crock & you know it. What good's the right attitude if you don't possess the physical skills ? Whilst physical handling skills aren't the lion share in the sum requirement of a good safe driver, they could never be considered an irrelevance. Your driving is only as good as the weakest link within the sum required components. It is not so much where our strengths lay that determines our ultimate ability levels, it's where our weaknesses put us. The best drivers have fewest weaknesses & shine by making the fewest errors of any kind.

I don't know Von, I think you need to think about it some more. The physical skills are pretty easy to achieve 'adequacy' in. Learner drivers manage it. I don't believe that they achieve 'adequacy' in observation. That takes years to develop (err - searching for a word) properly.

If all the skills had sliders on, pulling down the 'steering wheel technique' slider wouldn't make a whole lot of difference to a driver's crash risk. On the other hand, pulling down the observation or concentration sliders could be extremely dangerous. I'm not saying that good technique doesn't have value - but I am saying that the mental skills (and attitudes) trump it in spades.

A case in point is the research into drivers using mobile phones - virtually all the research finds no difference between the risk values associated with hand-held and hands-free phones. The hand held drivers are giving up an entire arm, yet it doesn't show on the crash risk. The hands free drivers are equally badly affected. I take this as a signpost to the relative importance of the physical skills and the mental skills.

[GreenV8S]

safespeed said:

If all the skills had sliders on, pulling down the 'steering wheel technique' slider wouldn't make a whole lot of difference to a driver's crash risk. On the other hand, pulling down the observation or concentration sliders could be extremely dangerous. I'm not saying that good technique doesn't have value - but I am saying that the mental skills (and attitudes) trump it in spades.

It wasn't big and it wasn't clever, but in the *very* dim and distant past I have memories of some collaborative driving with the steering, pedals, gear lever + indicators all being worked by different people. Obviously the technique was as ragged as anything but there was no difficulty controlling the vehicle and making safe progress; I don't think that anyone outside the car would have had any reason to suspect anything out of the ordinary was going on.

I'm sure that this would have compromised our ability to respond to an emergency requiring prompt reaction, and it was taking for granted that the person in the hot seat would pull the plug on this nonesense at the first sign of trouble, but the fact remains that even with really quite poor and uncoordinated operation of the controls there was no difficulty negotiating ordinary obstacles.

I don't think that skill or lack of skill in vehicle control makes a big difference to safety compared to other hugely important factors such as observation, anticipation and planning, as long as the skill is sufficient to maintain control of the course and speed of the vehicle.

[deeps]

safespeed said:

If all the skills had sliders on, pulling down the 'steering wheel technique' slider wouldn't make a whole lot of difference to a driver's crash risk. On the other hand, pulling down the observation or concentration sliders could be extremely dangerous. I'm not saying that good technique doesn't have value - but I am saying that the mental skills (and attitudes) trump it in spades.

Absolutely! I'm suprised at Vons attitude here.
You could put a physically well built 10 year old in a car who has all the necessary physical capabilities to drive it, but would any of us want to be a passenger? I don't think so. The mental capabilities could be some what lacking.

safespeed said:

A case in point is the research into drivers using mobile phones - virtually all the research finds no difference between the risk values associated with hand-held and hands-free phones. The hand held drivers are giving up an entire arm, yet it doesn't show on the crash risk. The hands free drivers are equally badly affected. I take this as a signpost to the relative importance of the physical skills and the mental skills.

Yes, another policy where they have done the wrong thing. Holding something (a phone) in your hand whilst driving is competely safe, where as engaging your brain in a telephone conversation (whether that be hands free is irrelevant) is defocusing your concentration on the road - Fact. Yet the safe physical part is made illegal and the dangerous mental part is not!

[vonhosen]

I'm not saying that attitude & OAP don't occupy the lion share of importance, merely that the physical skills aren't an irrelevance (ie they have to at least be adequate & if you dismiss them you can't be sure they are). You have to have observation & control (it's what you are assessed on even in your DSA test). The more extreme circumstances become, the more important the ability in the physical skills. There comes a point where you can judge a speed is safe for a bend (for vehicle & conditions), but the limiting factor of your inputs mean you don't actually get around it despite it being a totally safe speed in ordinary circumstances. Your original statement Paul was talking not so much of degrees of importance as largely dismissive of physical skills.

I'm just saying you can't dismiss them as irrelevant & if you have poor inputs they will always be a limiting factor & actually make you a poorer driver. A skidpan session for instance, will reveal a great deal about physical skills, more so than attitude or OAP. Or if you encounter any such adverse conditions that appear on the road resulting in harsh inputs, such as if you get a blow out in a tyre at reasonably high speed, those physical skills are of greater importance. The good OAP won't keep you on the road safely then.








>> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 13th April 07:14

[WildCat]

leadfootlydon said:

deeps said: I wonder how different things would be today if man had never developed a way of measuring speed? Sadly, it's all happening the opposite way. More and more importance is being given to mere numbers, with a whole industry built around it, and Von talks of common sense? The speedo in my Stag oscilates. Most stags behave this way, and until recently it has not been a problem. Certainly a pinpoint accurate speedo was not a critical design feature for cars of that era. For heaven's sake, why would a driver ever need to know exactly what speed they are doing? Well it is a different world now. I have to drive at 25mph (probably) on certain dual carriageways around here, just to be sure.

Our Stag ist the same .. und the Moggies also oscillate.. Lot of old classics across family.. none has accurate speedo - und it show on track against the newer cars und with useful gadget fitted..

Ist only now that we have to be accurate to absolute because of the digital money boxes on roads.

By the way .. in those days .. you rarely survived hit at 30 mph ....und people did not saunter und jay-walk or ride roady bikes at high speeds either.. (those steel bikes.. they were proper ones.. if you could get to 20 mph ..on one of these heavy monsters - you were FIT! )

[safespeed]

vonhosen said:

Your original statement Paul was talking not so much of degrees of importance as largely dismissive of physical skills.

That's just a misunderstanding then because I was talking about relative importance.

[WildCat]

vonhosen said:

safespeed said: vonhosen said: Speedo checks shouldn't impact on safety at all, because you prioritise when to do them. If circumstances are favourable, so that you can be travelling at the limit, then you obviously have no immeadiate threat for that speed & periodic checks are not a problem. If there is a threat that prevents you travelling at the limit, you should be going slower & be aware you are well under the limit, hence the speedo check will be not required until it is safe for you to approach the speed of the maximum again. There you go again. What drivers SHOULD do. It matters not what drivers should do. It matters what drivers do do. So. Meanwhile, back in the real world, we have a national shortage of driver attention as evidenced by crashes involving inattention. Some estimates put inattention as the root cause of 75% of all crashes. Yes, a good driver / ideal driver / perfect driver will always find the time to check his speedo when hazards don't threaten. Yet in the real world there are no perfect drivers and few good ones. It follows that sometimes imperfect drivers will be checking their speedos while critical hazards are developing around them. Question is: do we want more of this behaviour or not? We're ALREADY on the slope of an inattention / crashes curve. More inattention means more crashes. Less inattention means fewer crashes. We're ALWAYS going to be on the slope. If we want to worry about things that have an adverse effect on concentration of drivers, we would be better dealing with eating at the wheel, phone conversations (hands free or not), remove car stereos, stop people reading maps on the move & even not allowing passengers so they don't have distracting conversations. All of these have little to do with the act of safe driving & affect concentration on the task in hand.

Well ..

In North East.. Northumberland police.. prosecuted woman for eating an apple .. when the officer saw her. Unfortunately he had no photo evidence.. so they wasted a lot of money on taking photos of the road she was alleged to have been eating the apple on...

But oddly no problem with this ... as tried eating an apple on track ... was not that easy .. at the speeds I was reaching

I do not use a Handy.. I loathe them with vengeance..

I do not read map whilst drving either.. happen to know where I want to go.. have checked out route first ...(ist part of COAST the plan bit in A- S und T)) und I have feline sense of direction Und a Sat Nav (complete with scam download .. )

Und conversation in car ist "numpty ahead.. mumpty ahead... camera ahead... old farty in van ahead... with camera... " und so weiter.. und the kittens are usually playing spot the cam van.. und pulling faces at them .. und they are also looking around und even seeing where the hazard potential lies.. und they have conversation amongst dselves as to how much hazard it poses .. they are learning to risk assess them per danger priority.

vonhosen said:

If they are looking out of their vehicles for cameras, at least they are looking out of their cars at the road ahead, not looking at the person next to them chatting.

But there ist the biggest danger..

they are only looking for cameras und no other hazard..

[WildCat]

vonhosen said:

I'm not saying that attitude & OAP don't occupy the lion share of importance, merely that the physical skills aren't an irrelevance (ie they have to at least be adequate & if you dismiss them you can't be sure they are). You have to have observation & control (it's what you are assessed on even in your DSA test). The more extreme circumstances become, the more important the ability in the physical skills. There comes a point where you can judge a speed is safe for a bend (for vehicle & conditions), but the limiting factor of your inputs mean you don't actually get around it despite it being a totally safe speed in ordinary circumstances. Your original statement Paul was talking not so much of degrees of importance as largely dismissive of physical skills. I'm just saying you can't dismiss them as irrelevant & if you have poor inputs they will always be a limiting factor & actually make you a poorer driver. A skidpan session for instance, will reveal a great deal about physical skills, more so than attitude or OAP. Or if you encounter any such adverse conditions that appear on the road resulting in harsh inputs, such as if you get a blow out in a tyre at reasonably high speed, those physical skills are of greater importance. The good OAP won't keep you on the road safely then. >> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 13th April 07:14

Once we get the motor/cognitive skills fluent in actual handling .. und this ist why we booked the original lessons en block for the kittens to develop this fluency in handling car - und going on to develop COAST with the family as with the BiBs in family und an usual plethora of advanced drivers (we all are ) .. we think we are better suited to discipline them to COAST it.

But once you develop this fluency .. ist then ingrained und schooled in...

But...

traffic conditions change all the time.. und new developments und innovations appear in our cars .. thus ist good idea to encourage a continuous learning curve in our skills und always seek to improve.. especially the COAST ones - to develop in all learners a need to evaluate each drive und consider how their drive may have affected another road user und whether or not there ist anything to "jazz up a bit or a lot "

[s2art]

[quote=WildCatBut oddly no problem with this ... as tried eating an apple on track ... was not that easy .. at the speeds I was reaching

/quote]

Eating an apple on the track may be just a tad different. There is risk homeostasis, people making mobile calls, smoking a ciggy, eating something etc. generally modify their driving behaviour (subconciously sometimes) to accomodate the reduced physical capability. One of the reasons we dont see the correlation that Safespeed refers to regarding mobile phone usage.

[vonhosen]

WildCat said:

vonhosen said: I'm not saying that attitude & OAP don't occupy the lion share of importance, merely that the physical skills aren't an irrelevance (ie they have to at least be adequate & if you dismiss them you can't be sure they are). You have to have observation & control (it's what you are assessed on even in your DSA test). The more extreme circumstances become, the more important the ability in the physical skills. There comes a point where you can judge a speed is safe for a bend (for vehicle & conditions), but the limiting factor of your inputs mean you don't actually get around it despite it being a totally safe speed in ordinary circumstances. Your original statement Paul was talking not so much of degrees of importance as largely dismissive of physical skills. I'm just saying you can't dismiss them as irrelevant & if you have poor inputs they will always be a limiting factor & actually make you a poorer driver. A skidpan session for instance, will reveal a great deal about physical skills, more so than attitude or OAP. Or if you encounter any such adverse conditions that appear on the road resulting in harsh inputs, such as if you get a blow out in a tyre at reasonably high speed, those physical skills are of greater importance. The good OAP won't keep you on the road safely then. >> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 13th April 07:14 Once we get the motor/cognitive skills fluent in actual handling .. und this ist why we booked the original lessons en block for the kittens to develop this fluency in handling car - und going on to develop COAST with the family as with the BiBs in family und an usual plethora of advanced drivers (we all are ) .. we think we are better suited to discipline them to COAST it. But once you develop this fluency .. ist then ingrained und schooled in... But... traffic conditions change all the time.. und new developments und innovations appear in our cars .. thus ist good idea to encourage a continuous learning curve in our skills und always seek to improve.. especially the COAST ones - to develop in all learners a need to evaluate each drive und consider how their drive may have affected another road user und whether or not there ist anything to "jazz up a bit or a lot "

Why are you continually trying to force feed me COAST ?
I am well aware of the merits of advanced driving .......as my job is teaching & testing it.

>> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 13th April 15:49

[GreenV8S]

vonhosen said:

I am well aware of the merits of advanced driving .......as my job is teaching & testing it.

But we weren't to know that, were we?

Although to be honest I think it has been clear from your posts that your line of work is something of that sort

[vonhosen]

GreenV8S said:

vonhosen said: I am well aware of the merits of advanced driving .......as my job is teaching & testing it. But we weren't to know that, were we? Although to be honest I think it has been clear from your posts that your line of work is something of that sort

I did say so on page 18 of this thread.

[GreenV8S]

vonhosen said:

I did say so on page 18 of this thread.

[TripleS]

vonhosen said:

WildCat said: ....ist good idea to encourage a continuous learning curve in our skills und always seek to improve.. especially the COAST ones - to develop in all learners a need to evaluate each drive und consider how their drive may have affected another road user und whether or not there ist anything to "jazz up a bit or a lot " Why are you continually trying to force feed me COAST ? I am well aware of the merits of advanced driving .......as my job is teaching & testing it.

Oh we've been getting COAST rammed down our throats for years. She's only just started on you.

Best wishes all,
Dave.

[WildCat]

vonhosen said:

WildCat said: vonhosen said: I'm not saying that attitude & OAP don't occupy the lion share of importance, merely that the physical skills aren't an irrelevance (ie they have to at least be adequate & if you dismiss them you can't be sure they are). You have to have observation & control (it's what you are assessed on even in your DSA test). The more extreme circumstances become, the more important the ability in the physical skills. There comes a point where you can judge a speed is safe for a bend (for vehicle & conditions), but the limiting factor of your inputs mean you don't actually get around it despite it being a totally safe speed in ordinary circumstances. Your original statement Paul was talking not so much of degrees of importance as largely dismissive of physical skills. I'm just saying you can't dismiss them as irrelevant & if you have poor inputs they will always be a limiting factor & actually make you a poorer driver. A skidpan session for instance, will reveal a great deal about physical skills, more so than attitude or OAP. Or if you encounter any such adverse conditions that appear on the road resulting in harsh inputs, such as if you get a blow out in a tyre at reasonably high speed, those physical skills are of greater importance. The good OAP won't keep you on the road safely then. >> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 13th April 07:14 Once we get the motor/cognitive skills fluent in actual handling .. und this ist why we booked the original lessons en block for the kittens to develop this fluency in handling car - und going on to develop COAST with the family as with the BiBs in family und an usual plethora of advanced drivers (we all are ) .. we think we are better suited to discipline them to COAST it. But once you develop this fluency .. ist then ingrained und schooled in... But... traffic conditions change all the time.. und new developments und innovations appear in our cars .. thus ist good idea to encourage a continuous learning curve in our skills und always seek to improve.. especially the COAST ones - to develop in all learners a need to evaluate each drive und consider how their drive may have affected another road user und whether or not there ist anything to "jazz up a bit or a lot " Why are you continually trying to force feed me COAST ? I am well aware of the merits of advanced driving .......as my job is teaching & testing it. >> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 13th April 15:49

Because if you were teaching properly - all your L plated students would be well tutored in COAST .. und they ain't - are they ..

Not even police ones.. - after what observed today on road ..he nearly hit the cyclist.. not enough COAST... und overshot the lines at the red .. he tried to beat the lights und then he got into wrong laane at next lights und never bothered to either look or indicate his intention .. he just cut in... ist good job I drive to COAST then to compensate for this police driver who has not been taught properly.

Er .. you were sayin'?

[WildCat]

TripleS said:

vonhosen said: WildCat said: ....ist good idea to encourage a continuous learning curve in our skills und always seek to improve.. especially the COAST ones - to develop in all learners a need to evaluate each drive und consider how their drive may have affected another road user und whether or not there ist anything to "jazz up a bit or a lot " Why are you continually trying to force feed me COAST ? I am well aware of the merits of advanced driving .......as my job is teaching & testing it. Oh we've been getting COAST rammed down our throats for years. She's only just started on you. Best wishes all, Dave.

You know me too well Liebchen..

Und we still talking after you got the full hot cat on hot roof rant over the Handy thing

[vonhosen]

WildCat said:

Because if you were teaching properly - all your L plated students would be well tutored in COAST .. und they ain't - are they .. Not even police ones.. - after what observed today on road ..he nearly hit the cyclist.. not enough COAST... und overshot the lines at the red .. he tried to beat the lights und then he got into wrong laane at next lights und never bothered to either look or indicate his intention .. he just cut in... ist good job I drive to COAST then to compensate for this police driver who has not been taught properly. Er .. you were sayin'?

So which one of my candidates have you seen to make that statement ?

>> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 13th April 22:05