Discussion
lazy_b said:
I've read the posts by vonhosen on this and other threads.
I can't decide whether he's genuine (in which case - if you really practice what you preach, vonhosen - all credit to you, but allow us mere mortals a little leeway, please?) or whether he's just quoting out of a text book.
He certainly comes over as one of the prescriptive school (you MUST do it THIS way), rather than the educational school (this way has been found to be best: feel free to experiment -at your own risk)
With driving on our roads, any risk you present is not just your own though.
And this is one of the reasons we must have boundaries.
WildCat said:
Am afraid he lost credibiilty to me when he tell me we did not choose good enough driving school for our son - when I point out they all teach to get that L-test pass und practice on the test centre routes for most part...
But they don't all do they. You are making a generalisation. You're not telling me you know every ADI are you & how commited they are to what they teach their candidates ? I know many will take exception to such a suggestion, if you ended up with one that just passes someone to pass a test, then perhaps you missed the good ones. As with anything there will be good & bad, it just sounds like didn't pick a good one. (Particularly as you're unhappy they only taught to pass a test)
Wildcat said:
Followed by his reply to my overtake scenario - in which I describe I am almost past the 60 mph driver in L1 .. with BiB on shout closing in at over the ton. He suggested I slow down und move in behind the slower vehicle to allow the overtake instead of taking my speed marginally over to get to a safe gap to allow him to pass unhindered. Und I know I did the right thing because I get thumbs up und salute from the guy in the passenger seat .
I happen to consider that any toher action could have led to some kind of accident given the speed of the emergency vehicle und the time required to shave off 10 mph und move in behind the slower vehicle in time und closing distance. Was nonsense he post there .. basically...
Perhaps I know a little more about the training that the Police driver receives than you here though & if they are doing what they are trained to do they will not be involved in any collision here, making sure they give you time to decide on safe action, never forcing you into any action.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 6th April 22:34
vonhosen said:Does that training include the use of undeleted expletives hollered out the passenger window after narrowly passing a lady motorist who basically had nowhere to go but tried anyway? Or driving six inches off the back bumper of a car facing a stream of oncoming, with two tones blaring, on a narrow lane with no verge?
the Police driver...give you time to decide on safe action...never forcing you into any action
What sort of perfect non-existent world is this? Ah yes, the world of the law is the law and ubertraining conquers all
Ooops there I go being cynical again, I'll say a few Hail Marys later.
turbobloke said:
the Police driver...give you time to decide on safe action...never forcing you into any action
What sort of perfect non-existent world is this? Ah yes, the world of the law is the law and ubertraining conquers all
Ooops there I go being cynical again, I'll say a few Hail Marys later.
No excuse for it, you won't find me trying to excuse it.
7db said:
I suppose we look for things which support our own world view and judge accordingly.
Does this mean that nothing he says has any use or relevance for you, Wildcat?
Not really ... he say to glibly that driving schools do not teach to pass a test.
They all do .. ist their "raison d'etre" und punters want to know the pass rate as ist measure of their success in same way as they choose a school based on academic results..
To claim they teach on whole spectrum of roads we may drive on during life time ist a nonsense.. does not happen in real life...for MAJORITY und the standard of Driving Schools und intructors in UK - woefully low by comparison with other countries.. ist no formal training as such for many of them.
Also .. his post concerning the overtake und the same glib reply that police officers will "avoid" accident when we all know that far too many have accidents when on shouts for number of reasons. (lack of training.. pressures.. other numpty not knowing how to react when hearing the siren ..) . und backed by GOVERNMENT stats - the same one he would appear to agree with when it come to "lesser" but equally competent through experience/extra training mortals than a policeman driving safely but a little above lolly - also a nonsense... they have accidents.. therre are as many stats und news reports of these as hit und runs... these days.
WildCat said:
this guy could not have stopped in time und he could not have moved to any other lane without endangering the cars I was overtaking at the time.
Sounds dangerous to me. And yet-
WildCat said:
Und I know I did the right thing because I get thumbs up und salute from the guy in the passenger seat
You take his passenger's indication of approval at face value.
WildCat said:
Not really ... he say to glibly that driving schools do not teach to pass a test.
They all do .. ist their "raison d'etre" und punters want to know the pass rate as ist measure of their success in same way as they choose a school based on academic results..
To claim they teach on whole spectrum of roads we may drive on during life time ist a nonsense.. does not happen in real life...for MAJORITY und the standard of Driving Schools und intructors in UK - woefully low by comparison with other countries.. ist no formal training as such for many of them.
Also .. his post concerning the overtake und the same glib reply that police officers will "avoid" accident when we all know that far too many have accidents when on shouts for number of reasons. (lack of training.. pressures.. other numpty not knowing how to react when hearing the siren ..) . und backed by GOVERNMENT stats - the same one he would appear to agree with when it come to "lesser" but equally competent through experience/extra training mortals than a policeman driving safely but a little above lolly - also a nonsense... they have accidents.. therre are as many stats und news reports of these as hit und runs... these days.
Traurig zu bitten aber warum sind Sie die deutschen und englischen Worter mischend? Ungerade!
>> Edited by oe_cosgrove on Thursday 6th April 23:28
WildCat said:
I suppose we look for things which support our own world view and judge accordingly.
Does this mean that nothing he says has any use or relevance for you, Wildcat?
Not really ... he say to glibly that driving schools do not teach to pass a test.
They all do .. ist their "raison d'etre" und punters want to know the pass rate as ist measure of their success in same way as they choose a school based on academic results..
No, I said not all do. You don't have to go to commercial driving schools, you can go to independent commited professionals, you just have to choose wisely & on recommendation.
Wildcat said:
To claim they teach on whole spectrum of roads we may drive on during life time ist a nonsense.. does not happen in real life...for MAJORITY und the standard of Driving Schools und intructors in UK - woefully low by comparison with other countries.. ist no formal training as such for many of them.
But again this is not the case for all, you have to be selective. There are many who have had a lot of formal training way beyond that of the DSA ADI qualification itself.
Wildcat said:
Also .. his post concerning the overtake und the same glib reply that police officers will "avoid" accident when we all know that far too many have accidents when on shouts for number of reasons. (lack of training.. pressures.. other numpty not knowing how to react when hearing the siren ..) . und backed by GOVERNMENT stats - the same one he would appear to agree with when it come to "lesser" but equally competent through experience/extra training mortals than a policeman driving safely but a little above lolly - also a nonsense... they have accidents.. therre are as many stats und news reports of these as hit und runs... these days.
Any Police driver who has a fault collision will not be driving in accordance with their training. If they do they leave themselves open to prosecution just like any other driver, they are not exempt from careless/dangerous driving etc.
7db said:
this guy could not have stopped in time und he could not have moved to any other lane without endangering the cars I was overtaking at the time.
Sounds dangerous to me.
Was a very dangerous situation.. one minute a safe routine overtake in a 70 mph limit .. am 69-72 mph throughout.. the L1 cars were pootling along at 60 mph. One had trailer und another a caravan.. One of them aborted his own overtake .. he saw this chap closing... increasing all the time.. He reached me very, very quicky.. 30 mph differential in speed...
To abort the overtake at point of no return .. a NO NO! Only solution = German method.. 
Jag responded with feline form.. Accelerate to gap per original plan - but a touch faster than planned und ease back.. 7db said:
And yet-
WildCat said:
Und I know I did the right thing because I get thumbs up und salute from the guy in the passenger seat
You take his passenger's indication of approval at face value.
He gave me a nice friendly looking smile ... which I caught but fleetingly as they were going a lot faster than I was ..
You can tell a genuine gesture even at that alacrity ...
I am sure if it was illegal.. they would have reported me.. they were BiB
in big fast BiB car.. complete with the flashing lights und the woo-woos... oe_cosgrove said:
Not really ... he say to glibly that driving schools do not teach to pass a test.
They all do .. ist their "raison d'etre" und punters want to know the pass rate as ist measure of their success in same way as they choose a school based on academic results..
To claim they teach on whole spectrum of roads we may drive on during life time ist a nonsense.. does not happen in real life...for MAJORITY und the standard of Driving Schools und intructors in UK - woefully low by comparison with other countries.. ist no formal training as such for many of them.
Also .. his post concerning the overtake und the same glib reply that police officers will "avoid" accident when we all know that far too many have accidents when on shouts for number of reasons. (lack of training.. pressures.. other numpty not knowing how to react when hearing the siren ..) . und backed by GOVERNMENT stats - the same one he would appear to agree with when it come to "lesser" but equally competent through experience/extra training mortals than a policeman driving safely but a little above lolly - also a nonsense... they have accidents.. therre are as many stats und news reports of these as hit und runs... these days.
Traurig zu bitten aber warum sind Sie die deutschen und englischen Worter mischend? Ungerade!
>> Edited by oe_cosgrove on Thursday 6th April 23:28
I really cannot spell two words.. it get me into bother at work too.. I spend ages with spell checker.. or I used to.. so I don't bother.. was every other word .. I seem to use the two words I cannot spell rather a lot.. but then Einstein had the problems with the simplest und not the complex
They like my "hell brews" so much.. they now give me my own proof reader.. .... und typist.. I work for large pharmaceutical company... I - er - design the drugs which cure people... supposedly..
WildCat said:
You can tell a genuine gesture even at that alacrity ...
I am sure if it was illegal.. they would have reported me.. they were BiB
Are you sure it wasn't genuine relief? Sounds like he had got himself into a spot of bother and was relying on you to do something illegal to get him out of it. I'd give you a wave to thank you if I had screwed up so monumentally as well...
Report you? I'm sure he would have been more worried about the reverse...
vonhosen said:
I suppose we look for things which support our own world view and judge accordingly.
Does this mean that nothing he says has any use or relevance for you, Wildcat?
Not really ... he say to glibly that driving schools do not teach to pass a test.
They all do .. ist their "raison d'etre" und punters want to know the pass rate as ist measure of their success in same way as they choose a school based on academic results..
No, I said not all do. You don't have to go to commercial driving schools, you can go to independent commited professionals, you just have to choose wisely & on recommendation.
They are still "businesses" und you still enquire as to pass rate as measure of success .....A self- emplyed chap may not be able to offer the lessons at different times of day und we have to work around school time tables and exams .. applies to the undergraduates who tend to use the local BSM in Lancaster und Manchester just as much. The chap who taught our eldest was involved with the Lancs Speed Course scheme as one of the ADIs involved int the "practical" session. Ist another reason why we know so much about Lancs
vonhosen said:
To claim they teach on whole spectrum of roads we may drive on during life time ist a nonsense.. does not happen in real life...for MAJORITY und the standard of Driving Schools und intructors in UK - woefully low by comparison with other countries.. ist no formal training as such for many of them.
But again this is not the case for all, you have to be selective. There are many who have had a lot of formal training way beyond that of the DSA ADI qualification itself.
William had - und our twins have - advantage because we live in area where they have the rural twisties und the A road dual in A66 /A590 stretches. They also have advantage of being in family which ist unusual perhaps in that we all have advanced driving qualifications... RoSPA/RoADA/HPC/IAM/foreign licences .... apart from UK family .. all German/Swiss trained...
We all took our young out to practice with different family members und all the family BiB get involved. ... Chap who taught William .. BSM trained ADI ... und he was RoSPA gold star und ex policeman.. but not all have this.. lot of self employed with nothing really outstanding .. und also .. ist combination of how they teach.. how they insturct und get messages across.. besides... und with some.. ist personality playing big part too.
vonhosen said:
Also .. his post concerning the overtake und the same glib reply that police officers will "avoid" accident when we all know that far too many have accidents when on shouts for number of reasons. (lack of training.. pressures.. other numpty not knowing how to react when hearing the siren ..) . und backed by GOVERNMENT stats - the same one he would appear to agree with when it come to "lesser" but equally competent through experience/extra training mortals than a policeman driving safely but a little above lolly - also a nonsense... they have accidents.. therre are as many stats und news reports of these as hit und runs... these days.
Any Police driver who has a fault collision will not be driving in accordance with their training. If they do they leave themselves open to prosecution just like any other driver, they are not exempt from careless/dangerous driving etc.
Too many get aways with it though.. the one in Manchester was acquitted... he was in van .. girl was killed as she crossed road..
The zebra crossing case...he was acquitted und so were a number of others .. und all similar to those involving others.
Far too many police are having these incidents these days.. some fatal ... some not .. und I pulled in to allow another BiB overtake me a few days ago.. und observe him taking no notice of double white, oncoming cars.. und he did not even brake at red lights in distance.. Ist mix of dumbed down training - cuts in training und perhaps even not the right calibre cop.
But ist too glib to say "not in accordance with their training"
They are supposedly professionals...
I am not going to take any chance with anything closing in on me at that kind of speed .... und it prove I use my mirrors on regular basis too
Und I am not going to trust a policeman heading toward me at high speed "just because they wear a uniform und had a few weeks of training" - as this does not mean any safer than other competent driver whether IAM or Gold starring RoSPA....or experienced /very - very competent through driving hours und miles.... Where I trained .. we were tested on A Bahn... und there - you make way for the overtaker und get out of his path .. it mean you always check mirror und always look ahead to the gaps in the traffic.
But regardless - in my book - you do not make a potentially dangerous situation even more dangerous by dawdling to reduce speed ...i/e - let the slower vehicle with caravan undertake so that you can keep to a speed limit when something ist closing in at that kind of speed. To do other than I did would have meant carnage all around - und made a mess of submarinated stats ... und toppest local plod called Ian would not have liked cleaning up the mess either.
7db said:
You can tell a genuine gesture even at that alacrity ...
I am sure if it was illegal.. they would have reported me.. they were BiB
Are you sure it wasn't genuine relief? Sounds like he had got himself into a spot of bother and was relying on you to do something illegal to get him out of it. I'd give you a wave to thank you if I had screwed up so monumentally as well...
Report you? I'm sure he would have been more worried about the reverse...
Perhaps a mix of relief und appreciation of my feline thinking
.. but in any case .. he was on a shout...incident became apparent further up... on the other side of carriageway....:sad: Ach .. agree he should have reduced to let me get out of way without accelerating sharpish .. but he didn't...und you have to be able to deal with this as well und consider the safety led implication first ...ist lucky for me that there was a sufficient gap to move into without compromising any other driver und that my car does respond well to both speed increase und decrease.. am fairly smooth und feathering quickly on the brakes too..
Did a braking course...
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