Discussion
WildCat said:
They are still "businesses" und you still enquire as to pass rate as measure of success .....
My point is they exist though, you just didn't get one. You aren't happy with the DSA training you got for your kitten, because they were taught to pass a test not to drive. If they exist, but you chose one that didn't train kitten the way you want, then who's fault is that.
Yes they publish pass rates, but that is only an indication of passses, not the quality of the students that are produced, you have to ask questions beyond the pass rate to find that out.
Wildcat said:
Any Police driver who has a fault collision will not be driving in accordance with their training. If they do they leave themselves open to prosecution just like any other driver, they are not exempt from careless/dangerous driving etc.
Too many get aways with it though.. the one in Manchester was acquitted... he was in van .. girl was killed as she crossed road..
The zebra crossing case...he was acquitted und so were a number of others .. und all similar to those involving others.
Got away with what ?
The law is applied to all these cases, just as it is for any driver. Where driving is dangerous or careless under the law, then they will be prosecuted & convicted.
This is something that I eluded to on an earlier thread. The difficulty of proving dangerous driving & the new offence of death by careless driving that is coming to fill that hole.
Police training hasn't been dumbed down. The training they receive today covers greater scope than in yester year, but yes more demands are made of them. As with everything more is wanted & expected from them in a shorter time, but the actual training is more focused on equiping them with the task they will be asked to do, than ever before. Their training is harder than it was 15-20 years ago, because more is expected of them.
Where they fall short of those high expectations, they may pay a high price.
We demand that these people who are going to travel at higher speeds (without the imposition of speed limits) have a high level of training, yet people here have been arguing that we should abolish speed limits without everyone having any extra training. How does that line of thinking work then ?
The Police should have that training, but the public should not
Wildcat said:
To do other than I did would have meant carnage all around - und made a mess of submarinated stats ... und toppest local plod called Ian would not have liked cleaning up the mess either.
That was your judgement, but perhaps your judgement that he was going to hit you may have been wrong. I'm sure if we ask the BiB he would be saying there was no way he was going to hit you.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Friday 7th April 07:23
safespeed said:
No, I said not all do. You don't have to go to commercial driving schools, you can go to independent commited professionals, you just have to choose wisely & on recommendation.
Are your forgetting experientia docet?
No I'm not, it's exactly what I am talking about.
If Wildcat had remembered that, she may have picked an instructor who would have taught more than simply how to pass the DSA test, instead of looking at a commercial DSA driving school's pass rate as a guide to the quality of learning she could expect for her kitten.
vonhosen said:
They are still "businesses" und you still enquire as to pass rate as measure of success .....
My point is they exist though, you just didn't get one. You aren't happy with the DSA training you got for your kitten, because they were taught to pass a test not to drive. If they exist, but you chose one that didn't train kitten the way you want, then who's fault is that.
Yes they publish pass rates, but that is only an indication of passses, not the quality of the students that are produced, you have to ask questions beyond the pass rate to find that out.
They can be counted nationally on one hand ... und William was taught the way we wanted...
We just wanted him to get the basics before we let him practise with us
I was heavily pregnant at time...He even experienced how to deal with full range of mumpties... one with a bumpty in the car und the ones on the other school run vonhosen said:
Any Police driver who has a fault collision will not be driving in accordance with their training. If they do they leave themselves open to prosecution just like any other driver, they are not exempt from careless/dangerous driving etc.
Too many get aways with it though.. the one in Manchester was acquitted... he was in van .. girl was killed as she crossed road..
The zebra crossing case...he was acquitted und so were a number of others .. und all similar to those involving others.
Got away with what ?
The law is applied to all these cases, just as it is for any driver. Where driving is dangerous or careless under the law, then they will be prosecuted & convicted.
Except that the other driver was convicted for something very similar und the officer was not...
Same regional paper reported this on same day. Locals were outraged...
vonhosen said:
This is something that I eluded to on an earlier thread. The difficulty of proving dangerous driving & the new offence of death by careless driving that is coming to fill that hole.
You still have to PROVE the driving was dangerous or careless und the death occurred because of the degree of this carelessness. Has to be beyond reasoned doubt ... ist still a problem of onus of proof ...
Und also the actions of the victim may be considered more closely when this start to kick in.. which will not please the families perhaps - when ist a case of more serious...
Und you still have to CATCH... Hayley Day's killer has never been traced....The man who nearly killed Emma Davis (topppest cyclist) has not been found...there are countless others... und all not qualified to even drive... perhaps we would do better to close the access to these chaep no question asked back street chavcar lots...
vonhosen said:
Police training hasn't been dumbed down. The training they receive today covers greater scope than in yester year, but yes more demands are made of them. As with everything more is wanted & expected from them in a shorter time, but the actual training is more focused on equiping them with the task they will be asked to do, than ever before. Their training is harder than it was 15-20 years ago, because more is expected of them.
So you say.. have the inside story from chap who trains...
He despairs at times..
vonhosen said:
Where they fall short of those high expectations, they may pay a high price.
We demand that these people who are going to travel at higher speeds (without the imposition of speed limits) have a high level of training, yet people here have been arguing that we should abolish speed limits without everyone having any extra training. How does that line of thinking work then ?
The Police should have that training, but the public should not
Eh? We have been campaigning for more training.. regular training for ALL the whole time ... und no one ist talking abolishing limits...
One ist complaining over the focus of enforcement fastening on one thing und prosecuting the more able for slight blips - yet slapping hands with caution now for no insurance/licence etc....
May have hole of death by careless plugged .. but we ain't stopping the real careless und dangerous from driving on this basis
vonhosen said:
To do other than I did would have meant carnage all around - und made a mess of submarinated stats ... und toppest local plod called Ian would not have liked cleaning up the mess either.
That was your judgement, but perhaps your judgement that he was going to hit you may have been wrong. I'm sure if we ask the BiB he would be saying there was no way he was going to hit you.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Friday 7th April 07:23
Of course he would say that... but you were NOT there... he was closing in ... at high speed und he did NOT have the stopping distance.
Nothing wrong with my judgement... grew up on race tracks.. ski und skate fast (feel und judge speed - literally) ... go on track days... can judge speed /distance very accurately...may not be police ... but my cousin trained to his exacting standards.
vonhosen said:
No, I said not all do. You don't have to go to commercial driving schools, you can go to independent commited professionals, you just have to choose wisely & on recommendation.
Are your forgetting experientia docet?
No I'm not, it's exactly what I am talking about.
If Wildcat had remembered that, she may have picked an instructor who would have taught more than simply how to pass the DSA test, instead of looking at a commercial DSA driving school's pass rate as a guide to the quality of learning she could expect for her kitten.
Well, that's half the meaning. The other half is that we must learn though our own experiences.
WildCat said:
Am afraid he lost credibiilty to me when he tell me we did not choose good enough driving school for our son - when I point out they all teach to get that L-test pass und practice on the test centre routes for most part...
Followed by his reply to my overtake scenario - in which I describe I am almost past the 60 mph driver in L1 .. with BiB on shout closing in at over the ton. He suggested I slow down und move in behind the slower vehicle to allow the overtake instead of taking my speed marginally over to get to a safe gap to allow him to pass unhindered. Und I know I did the right thing because I get thumbs up und salute from the guy in the passenger seat .
I happen to consider that any toher action could have led to some kind of accident given the speed of the emergency vehicle und the time required to shave off 10 mph und move in behind the slower vehicle in time und closing distance. Was nonsense he post there .. basically...
These cases are inevitably very difficult to judge without being there and seeing what happens. I wouldn't place too much emphasis on this particular one Vrenchen, but I'm inclined to accept that you probably got it right.
Thinks: 'I wonder if that will get me back in her good books?'
Best wishes all,
Dave.
safespeed said:
No, I said not all do. You don't have to go to commercial driving schools, you can go to independent commited professionals, you just have to choose wisely & on recommendation.
Are your forgetting experientia docet?
No I'm not, it's exactly what I am talking about.
If Wildcat had remembered that, she may have picked an instructor who would have taught more than simply how to pass the DSA test, instead of looking at a commercial DSA driving school's pass rate as a guide to the quality of learning she could expect for her kitten.
Well, that's half the meaning. The other half is that we must learn though our own experiences.
I'm quite aware of what it means
You get the "teaching" & then develop it with your increasing "experience" (but within the guidelines you have been given with the teaching).
>> Edited by vonhosen on Friday 7th April 15:53
vonhosen said:That goes against one of your earlier posts where you acknowledged that a student can ultimately outplay their mentor, you were right first time - staying within the confines of any system just confines you.
You get the "teaching" & then develop it with your increasing "experience" (but within the guidelines you have been given with the teaching).
turbobloke said:
You get the "teaching" & then develop it with your increasing "experience" (but within the guidelines you have been given with the teaching).
A student can ultimately outperform a tutor within the system, but they can't outperform the safety system they were taught, they must remain within that & it's guidelines.
vonhosen said:That sounds like robotic reasoning by assertion again vh and it's not right. Just about every field of human endeavour is taken further when innovative people go beyond the boundaries that others impose, including their teachers and former 'experts'. Fact.
A student can ultimately outperform a tutor within the system, but they can't outperform the safety system they were taught, they must remain within that & it's guidelines.
turbobloke said:
A student can ultimately outperform a tutor within the system, but they can't outperform the safety system they were taught, they must remain within that & it's guidelines.
I'll conceed that was typed in haste and is b
s. I should say that anyone who can outdrive the system would essentially be setting a new one & we haven't seen that happen.
vonhosen said:Accepted, and I think your wording there vh is very apt - we haven't seen it
A student can ultimately outperform a tutor within the system, but they can't outperform the safety system they were taught, they must remain within that & it's guidelines.
I'll conceed that was typed in haste and is b
I should say that anyone who can outdrive the system would essentially be setting a new one & we haven't seen that happen.
vonhosen said:
No, I said not all do. You don't have to go to commercial driving schools, you can go to independent commited professionals, you just have to choose wisely & on recommendation.
Are your forgetting experientia docet?
No I'm not, it's exactly what I am talking about.
If Wildcat had remembered that, she may have picked an instructor who would have taught more than simply how to pass the DSA test, instead of looking at a commercial DSA driving school's pass rate as a guide to the quality of learning she could expect for her kitten.
I think this is where alot of the problem lies. I feel I had a great instructor. He passed my mum, my older brother, myself and my younger brother, and we've all been happy drivers since...
I think the best thing he did was teach us to be good drivers, not just to meet the requirements set down by the test. I'm sure we could have all passed after 1/4 of the lessons we had, but he kept pushing us and taking is on different roads and routes until he felt we were good drivers, before he even thought about the test!
Now, if we imagine alot of these big driving schools just aim for passes in minimal time, we are essentially "cheating" the system.
Bit off topic, but my Geography A-level required 3 areas of knowledge for the physical geography exams. However, we were taught 9 areas because we didn't know what would be on the exams. In essence we were taught a subject.
My brother at the same school, but two years later, KNEW the syllabus and exam areas, so only concentrated on the three subjects. He succesfully passed the exams, but he effectively knew three times less about physical geography than I, but had the same qualification!!!
I feel this is where driving schools could be going wrong. They might teach to pass the test, not to make good drivers, in a scrabble for superior turn-over and profit...
Dave
vonhosen said:
A student can ultimately outperform a tutor within the system, but they can't outperform the safety system they were taught, they must remain within that & it's guidelines.
I'll conceed that was typed in haste and is b
I should say that anyone who can outdrive the system would essentially be setting a new one & we haven't seen that happen.
Really? Brake gear overlap and brake steer overlap off the menu forever? Beyond 'the system' is a smooth blend of everything overlapping in glorious harmony and balance.
safespeed said:
A student can ultimately outperform a tutor within the system, but they can't outperform the safety system they were taught, they must remain within that & it's guidelines.
I'll conceed that was typed in haste and is b
I should say that anyone who can outdrive the system would essentially be setting a new one & we haven't seen that happen.
Really? Brake gear overlap and brake steer overlap off the menu forever? Beyond 'the system' is a smooth blend of everything overlapping in glorious harmony and balance.
Roadcraft permits brake gear overlap or brake steer overlap already, so there is nothing new there.
I don't see the use of these outside of the circumstance within roadcraft as any benefit (in road driving teachings).
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