Discussion
vonhosen said:
Roadcraft permits brake gear overlap or brake steer overlap already, so there is nothing new there.
I don't see the use of these outside of the circumstance within roadcraft as any benefit (in road driving teachings).
Fair enough, but are they teaching heel and toe downshifts yet?
safespeed said:
Roadcraft permits brake gear overlap or brake steer overlap already, so there is nothing new there.
I don't see the use of these outside of the circumstance within roadcraft as any benefit (in road driving teachings).
Fair enough, but are they teaching heel and toe downshifts yet?
No, because that is far more appropriate for track than road (IMHO) & not suitable for all cars. As such it is only a specialised technique & not difficult to master anyway.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Friday 7th April 18:43
vonhosen said:It depends on which wing of the provisional driver training corps you run with. They have different views on this and other issues yet they are all absolutely correct without a shadow of a doubt so listen in and belieeeeeeeve.
Roadcraft permits brake gear overlap or brake steer overlap already, so there is nothing new there.
I don't see the use of these outside of the circumstance within roadcraft as any benefit (in road driving teachings).
Fair enough, but are they teaching heel and toe downshifts yet?
No, because that is far more appropriate for track than road (IMHO) & not suitable for all cars. As such it is only a specialised technique & not difficult to master anyway.
Not detracting from the usefulness of such training, I got some in already, just pointing out the inherent surefire self-belief in all yet by definition, they can't all be right on everything.
Why on earth wouldn't you want to do this if it can be done? Smoother and safe too - you have power available sooner than if you whine and grind it with a slow left foot. Sure in some cars the relevant pedal offsets are a swine so it's a non-starter but that's it. Hey von, you'll be telling us to feed the wheel next
turbobloke said:
Roadcraft permits brake gear overlap or brake steer overlap already, so there is nothing new there.
I don't see the use of these outside of the circumstance within roadcraft as any benefit (in road driving teachings).
Fair enough, but are they teaching heel and toe downshifts yet?
No, because that is far more appropriate for track than road (IMHO) & not suitable for all cars. As such it is only a specialised technique & not difficult to master anyway.
Not detracting from the usefulness of such training, I got some in already, just pointing out the inherent surefire self-belief in all yet by definition, they can't all be right on everything.
Why on earth wouldn't you want to do this if it can be done? Smoother and safe too - you have power available sooner than if you whine and grind it with a slow left foot. Sure in some cars the relevant pedal offsets are a swine so it's a non-starter but that's it. Hey von, you'll be telling us to feed the wheel next
Pray why do I need power available sooner than I have it available with seperation on road ?
Incidently there is nothing wrong with feeding the wheel, it is a perfectly good safe, smooth & reliable steering method. Other steering methods have circumstances where they are most beneficial.
I'll utilise the most appropriate method for the circumstances, but for on road driving in most situations pull-push actually performs very well.
vonhosen said:Because you're the only one who knows about your 'driving plan', and power is a means of removing yourself from unexpected and unpredictable danger.
Pray why do I need power available sooner than I have it available with seperation on road ?
Why, vh, are you saying you coast along in neutral for long periods - to conserve fuel maybe or just to keep the noise down - cos it's safe?
That wasn't what Wildy means by COAST
vonhosen said:You're touted as a wheelman vh and who know you may be, but if you think that fixed input steering has no place in road driving you're in that narrow box you temporarily placed youself in over comments about sticking withing the system, thejn jumped out of, and are now back in again.
Incidently there is nothing wrong with feeding the wheel.
Generally when manoeuvring, feeding the wheel is fine, but there's nothing wrong with moving to fixed input steering on the road when it will serve you better. Whichever suits.
vonhosen said:
....there is nothing wrong with feeding the wheel, it is a perfectly good safe, smooth & reliable steering method. Other steering methods have circumstances where they are most beneficial.
I'll utilise the most appropriate method for the circumstances, but for on road driving in most situations pull-push actually performs very well.
I'm glad you said that, Von. Let us be free to use whatever technique enables the individual driver to get the best result.
Oh, and when you have a minute can you nip over to A-D and just put JJ25 right. I'm afraid I've upset him a bit on this issue.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
turbobloke said:
Incidently there is nothing wrong with feeding the wheel.
Generally when manoeuvring, feeding the wheel is fine, but there's nothing wrong with moving to fixed input steering on the road when it will serve you better. Whichever suits.
But out on the open road fixed grip steering would be the norm, and suitable for large radius bends, and you would change from that (maybe to pull-push) when you arrive at a sharp corner, would you not?
...or am I making hard work of this?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
vonhosen said:
Roadcraft permits brake gear overlap or brake steer overlap already, so there is nothing new there.
I don't see the use of these outside of the circumstance within roadcraft as any benefit (in road driving teachings).
Fair enough, but are they teaching heel and toe downshifts yet?
No, because that is far more appropriate for track than road (IMHO) & not suitable for all cars. As such it is only a specialised technique & not difficult to master anyway.
Actually I think the reason heel and toe isn't taught is because some find it difficult to master.
It's an excellent road technique, once mastered.
And in general terms basic car handling on the road and the track has effectively the same objective. On the track techniques are chosen and honed to maximise grip. On the road, techniques are developed and honed to create maximum safety margin from the limit of grip. One area of potential difference is that a track technique might 'go wrong' on the road - for example while trying to heel and toe your foot might slip off the brake. But once mastered, heel and toe give you more use of grip on the track and more margin from the limit of grip on the road.
TripleS said:I think I'm on your wavelength here TripleS, I'd just add that like many things it depends on the car (and the driver, the conditions...) but the car particularly.
Incidently there is nothing wrong with feeding the wheel.
Generally when manoeuvring, feeding the wheel is fine, but there's nothing wrong with moving to fixed input steering on the road when it will serve you better. Whichever suits.
But out on the open road fixed grip steering would be the norm, and suitable for large radius bends, and you would change from that (maybe to pull-push) when you arrive at a sharp corner, would you not?
...or am I making hard work of this?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I was once in a discussion about selecting appropriate gears and I asked about the range of 2nd gear for the car we were in, which this individual then underestimated by 100%. Same principle with fixed input steering. I have a sports wheel on one car, a near perfect rack, and considerably fewer turns to lock than I'd expect in a bus - as a result I can use fixed input steering in most on-road cornering situations if I wish. On another car it wouldn't be feasible in a lot of bends so I don't use it as often.
VH hinted at flexibility in his reply but I suspect from the rest it's not quite like that, however who knows and I'm certainly willing to learn from anyone
TripleS said:
....there is nothing wrong with feeding the wheel, it is a perfectly good safe, smooth & reliable steering method. Other steering methods have circumstances where they are most beneficial.
I'll utilise the most appropriate method for the circumstances, but for on road driving in most situations pull-push actually performs very well.
I'm glad you said that, Von. Let us be free to use whatever technique enables the individual driver to get the best result.
Oh, and when you have a minute can you nip over to A-D and just put JJ25 right. I'm afraid I've upset him a bit on this issue.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Dave
You know my view on it. You know I use a variety of methods (as discussed previously, some of which you don't like
) for different things. >> Edited by vonhosen on Friday 7th April 20:31
turbobloke said:
Incidently there is nothing wrong with feeding the wheel.
Generally when manoeuvring, feeding the wheel is fine, but there's nothing wrong with moving to fixed input steering on the road when it will serve you better. Whichever suits.
I have no problem with you using fixed input, you use what serves you best.
I've already said that I use a variety of methods for different things.
On road however there are very few circumstances where I won't use pull push as my preferred method.
safespeed said:
Actually I think the reason heel and toe isn't taught is because some find it difficult to master.
You have your finger on the pulse at Hendon do you ?
Who told you that, who's your source ?
I have no problem with heel toe use, I don't think it's difficult to master at all. "Some" find it as or even more difficult to master full seperation.
Horses for courses.
As I say there are positives, but what you gain with one you take away with the other.
For most on road purposes I don't see that heel toe is of great benefit & prefer seperation.
And I say that from a position where I can & do use both.
turbobloke said:
Pray why do I need power available sooner than I have it available with seperation on road ?
I don't suffer from this problem not generally using heel toe on road.
turbobloke said:
Why, vh, are you saying you coast along in neutral for long periods - to conserve fuel maybe or just to keep the noise down - cos it's safe?
Who coasts ?
TripleS said:
Incidently there is nothing wrong with feeding the wheel.
Generally when manoeuvring, feeding the wheel is fine, but there's nothing wrong with moving to fixed input steering on the road when it will serve you better. Whichever suits.
But out on the open road fixed grip steering would be the norm, and suitable for large radius bends, and you would change from that (maybe to pull-push) when you arrive at a sharp corner, would you not?
...or am I making hard work of this?
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Why is pull steering a problem in large radius bends ?
vonhosen said:If you lift the left foot and cause engine revs to rise under engine braking, rather than match revs to the selected gear, you are going to have to crash the upchange to be able to get back on the power as quickly as with heel and toe, and that might just exceed available grip as well as being clumsy and uncomfortable. There's a lot to be said for h&t if the car's pedals will allow it.
Pray why do I need power available sooner than I have it available with seperation on road?
I don't suffer from this problem not generally using heel toe on road.
vonhosen said:My point was a general one of principle, I honestly didn't imagine you did. The point was also about having the car ready to respond to input from the accelerator being a good idea. While your engine revs are still whining and winding up on what most folk would call a 'normal' upchange, a deft heel and toe will put the car in gear ready for power asafp and the choice is then with the driver. It can be several seconds while you wait for the wind-up otherwise. As with the glance at the speedo, one could get the impression that the cars you're referring to don't change speeds very easily, or you don't require them to, as you seem not to be very concerned about time spent doing pointless things.
Why, vh, are you saying you coast along in neutral for long periods - to conserve fuel maybe or just to keep the noise down - cos it's safe?
I suspect the difference here is a) types of car driven and b) reason for driving them? Who knows. However, if I'm on the wrong end of a pointy stick please point it again as I'm always willing to learn something new.
vonhosen said:
No, I said not all do. You don't have to go to commercial driving schools, you can go to independent commited professionals, you just have to choose wisely & on recommendation.
Are your forgetting experientia docet?
No I'm not, it's exactly what I am talking about.
If Wildcat had remembered that, she may have picked an instructor who would have taught more than simply how to pass the DSA test, instead of looking at a commercial DSA driving school's pass rate as a guide to the quality of learning she could expect for her kitten.
As mattter of fact.. Wildy and self were rather particular over our choice for William and likewise for our twins.
We chose primarily for basic introductory fast tack instruction.. our kids are quite bright (not paternal pride .. I have to ackwnowledge this... have to be wise to any attempts to smart - alec and -"out sass" us
However ... William's birthday is end August ... we thus had a timetable constraint. Confess we were lookig for a quick pass ... in case Wlldy needed a doctor and a car to get her there...
Eldest is mature and steady in character. Twins? We have a summer hols for them to practise in..
Kids have several enthusiasts and well qualified drivers to take them out and pass on wisdom as well. William had 6 formal - very regular - lessons and was out driving as practise thereafter. He was on every sort of road with US! He then had a further block to gear for test.
However.. the standard of tuition in William's case was excellent.
We have no doubt whoever we settle on for the twins will be of a high standard.
But ... you live in lah -lah land if you think these schools do not teach towards a driving test pass.
Go to the roads in use by ANY test centre.. they are there practising... ALL OF THEM! ALL LISTED IN PHONE BOOKS!
It's what they use to advertise their skills and to try to tell me why I should choose them as opposed to the other bloke.
By the way .. William's an IAM pass ..at just 18. He turned 17 in August and was through test by October. He spent some time gaining driving hours and experience and passed IAM test with zero trouble.
Our twins? Nick is a little more wilful and adventurous - but still steady with it and his sister? Very feminine feline ..
Both show maturity and good road sense already as well. Must be part of how we raise 'em We ask them questions to check observation and anticipation skills on routine drives with us ... to prepare ....
I will do the same thing.. block of lessons.. practice and further block to tighten up ...
But you are in cloud cuckoo land when you say some do not focus on the test.. THEY ALL DO! We did our homework.. We happen to want the best for our kids.
>> Edited by Mad Moggie on Friday 7th April 21:27
Mad Moggie said:
But ... you live in lah -lah land if you think these schools do not teach towards a driving test pass.
Go to the roads in use by ANY test centre.. they are there practising... ALL OF THEM! ALL LISTED IN PHONE BOOKS!
This is what keeps getting trotted out "They all only teach to pass" & I am saying that is plainly a lot of tosh.
Not "ALL" only do that, of course some do, but some "DON'T". All I'm saying is, it's no good complaining they only teach to pass a test, when you picked them.
Especially as there are "SOME" out there that don't just do that.
(See Mr Whippy's reply @ 17:11hrs
) >> Edited by vonhosen on Friday 7th April 21:40
>> Edited by vonhosen on Friday 7th April 21:42
vonhosen said:
Roadcraft permits brake gear overlap or brake steer overlap already, so there is nothing new there.
I don't see the use of these outside of the circumstance within roadcraft as any benefit (in road driving teachings).
Fair enough, but are they teaching heel and toe downshifts yet?
No, because that is far more appropriate for track than road (IMHO) & not suitable for all cars. As such it is only a specialised technique & not difficult to master anyway.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Friday 7th April 18:43
Depends on pedals .. size of feet as to difficulty...Widly and self tend to fvour the "sustain" method... sustaining the engine reve to ensure smoothness
and engine braking controls vonhosen said:
Pray why do I need power available sooner than I have it available with seperation on road ?
I don't suffer from this problem not generally using heel toe on road.
turbobloke said:
Why, vh, are you saying you coast along in neutral for long periods - to conserve fuel maybe or just to keep the noise down - cos it's safe?
Who coasts ?
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