Why was the 70 limit introduced?

[s2art]

vipers said:

s2art said: vipers said: s2art said: Not that the Stag was from the EARLY sixties. Stories I have heard from that period suggest that most of the cars on the road were built in the fifties or earlier, suspensions were rubbish, brakes rubbish, tyres rubbish, lights rubbish. Much of which was down to less than optimum maintenance. Must have been quite scarey to drive at the heady hights of 70MPH! Too true, but now that cars are that much better, we have more rubbish drivers? or is it just that you tend to notice it more. Again from tales related to me, driving was no better, possibly worse as there were many people on the road who never took a proper test (got licence in the forces etc.). But the roads were empty to compensate. Didnt quite understand the bit about got licence in the forces? sort of implied they didnt do a test?, was that a long time ago or wot? I took my HGV3 and HGV1 conversion whilst in the Royal Navy in the 70's and all was examined by a qualified civilian driving examiner.

I was told that during ww2 the young guys conscripted didnt need to do much in the way of training to get a licence issued by the Army. Somewhat different by the 70's I imagine.

[cooperman]

When toe 70 limit was introduced in December 1965, it was because of several really bad accidents in the fog, including a multiple fatal at Junction 13 of the M1. The speeds of the AC Cobra and Astons on the M1 really had little to do with it. It was a political thing that the politicians needed to be seen to be doing something about the levels of fatals in fog, although it was not explained then, or since, how a blanket 70 limit would prevent collisions in thick fog.
The sorts of cars being normally cruised at speeds higher than 70 in those included, by way of example, Cooper 'S', Lotus Cortina, Cortina GT, VX 4/90, all sorts of Jags, MGB, Healey 3000, Volvo 122, Zephyr/Zodiac, Westminster, Velox/Cresta, Rapier, etc, etc. Now, those cars usually had good radial tyres, disc brakes and adequate suspension, so the 70 limit was a restriction, although no-one really took much notice of it.
The blanket 50 limit was introduced in December 1974 as a fuel saving measure, having been a 'recommended' max for a few months in 1973, but it never 'caught on',was virtually ignored by everyone and was abandoned very soon after its introduction, although a 60 limit was then applied to all single carriageway roads as the new NSL. I seem to remember that 60 was applied to non-motorway d/c's for a short while, but that this was raised to 70 in line with m/ways very shortly afterwards.
What is a bit strange is that the permitted speeds now are almost the same as the speeds I used to cruise at in my 850 Mini back in 1963 and 1964, before I bought my first Mini-Cooper.
There was a great joke at that time: A guy is at a party and asks a girl if he she would like to go to his flat for a coffee. "Yes", she says, "but I think you should know that I'm on my menstrual cycle". "Oh, that's OK, "says the young man, "you go on ahead and I'll follow in my Mini-Cooper!"

[Hasbeen]

I find your ideas of the 60s quite amusing. My 1962 Morgan + 4 had no trouble sitting on 100 MPH plus, & neither did my 1960 Chrysler Royal [V8] tow car. It was not hard to average over
80 MPH on a 500 miles run from Sydney to Melbourne. We used to average over 70 MPH, in the Chrysler, with a Lotus 20 FJ, in a box on wheels, towed behind.
My mates 1100 cc Renault Gordeni R8, would sit on over 100 MPH, & do it safely. Even things like your Ford Zephyr, or Vaxhaul Velox, were 100 MPH cars, & would cruise, relaxed, & comfortable at 90+ MPH.
I tried my first radials on the Morgan, & they were not nice. It was only after much race track aimed modification that they were as good to handle on the road, as the cross crossply.

[fozzi]

cooperman said:

The sorts of cars being normally cruised at speeds higher than 70 in those included, by way of example, Cooper 'S', Lotus Cortina, Cortina GT, VX 4/90, all sorts of Jags, MGB, Healey 3000, Volvo 122, Zephyr/Zodiac, Westminster, Velox/Cresta, Rapier, etc, etc. Now, those cars usually had good radial tyres, disc brakes and adequate suspension, so the 70 limit was a restriction, although no-one really took much notice of it.

That was probably due to lack of points and bans etc.

Can someone remind me when the points system was introduced?

Also, can someone explain why, now that Europe wants to standardise everything that we still have a lower speed limit than France?


>> Edited by fozzi on Tuesday 18th April 13:38

[flemke]

fozzi said:

Also, can someone explain why, now that Europe wants to standardise everything that we still have a lower speed limit than France?

So does Belgium have a lower limit than the Frogpond, and it's virtually a French colony.

They recently raised the limit to 150 on some parts of the Italian Autostrada.

[fozzi]

Is there a definitive list of motorway speed limits within the Europe?.. Reckon it would make interesting, yet depressing reading.

[tvrslag]

The car that AC tested was in fact the first prototype of the cobra Daytona coupe that won its class in Le-mans back in 64 and then in private hands in 65. The M1 was one of the only places where AC could test the theoretical improvement in top speed over the hard top Cobra 289 with the road being unrestricted and relatively queit. Apparently they claimed to have seen over 170mph during testing.
What people must have thought seeing that go past as they travelled at 70, god only knows. I suppose the equivelant now would be to see Mclaren testing their F1 car down the M6 toll road.
TS

[cooperman]

tvrslag said:

The car that AC tested was in fact the first prototype of the cobra Daytona coupe that won its class in Le-mans back in 64 and then in private hands in 65. The M1 was one of the only places where AC could test the theoretical improvement in top speed over the hard top Cobra 289 with the road being unrestricted and relatively queit. Apparently they claimed to have seen over 170mph during testing. What people must have thought seeing that go past as they travelled at 70, god only knows. I suppose the equivelant now would be to see Mclaren testing their F1 car down the M6 toll road. TS

They only did this testing in the middle of the night, so it was not really a problem. It had no real bearing on the imposition of a 70 limit, that was just politics after the fatals in the fog.

[tvrslag]

Cooperman, agreed, these tests AC and many others conducted, as many have stated were not the single reason the limit was imposed, I was just imparting a bit more car friendly information into the debate as to the make of one of the vehicles being tested at this time. Would have made a fantastic sight.
Out of interest. Jaguar test engineers still regularly get caught speeding on the A46 past Whitley engineering site.

[s2art]

Hasbeen said:

I find your ideas of the 60s quite amusing. My 1962 Morgan + 4 had no trouble sitting on 100 MPH plus, & neither did my 1960 Chrysler Royal [V8] tow car. It was not hard to average over 80 MPH on a 500 miles run from Sydney to Melbourne. We used to average over 70 MPH, in the Chrysler, with a Lotus 20 FJ, in a box on wheels, towed behind. My mates 1100 cc Renault Gordeni R8, would sit on over 100 MPH, & do it safely. Even things like your Ford Zephyr, or Vaxhaul Velox, were 100 MPH cars, & would cruise, relaxed, & comfortable at 90+ MPH. I tried my first radials on the Morgan, & they were not nice. It was only after much race track aimed modification that they were as good to handle on the road, as the cross crossply.

And the bulk of the cars on the road in the early sixties.......?

Of course there were some cars built in the fifties and early sixties that would cruise at high speed, but I do remember reading that it was the early motorways that forced British manufacturers to improve the cars, as many were wilting under sustained high speed driving (70MPH+).
Try doing a sustained 100MPH in a poorly maintained Ford Popular!

[Flat in Fifth]

s2art said:

Try doing a sustained 100MPH in a poorly maintained Ford Popular!

Even a well maintained one would have had trouble there.

69 mph max for the 100E, including the power sapping vacuum wipers, bone of much contention.

Even the 105E Anglebox was 74 mph max.


edited to sort quote formatting

>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Tuesday 18th April 16:40

[turbobloke]

Flat in Fifth said:

s2art said: Try doing a sustained 100MPH in a poorly maintained Ford Popular! Even a well maintained one would have had trouble there. 69 mph max for the 100E, including the power sapping vacuum wipers, bone of much contention.

This was my big brother's first car, and the most I saw in it was an indicated 55 mph.

It was a 103E (?) and bought from a policeman iirc it had the reg PC 49

[Flat in Fifth]

turbobloke said:

Flat in Fifth said: s2art said: Try doing a sustained 100MPH in a poorly maintained Ford Popular! Even a well maintained one would have had trouble there. 69 mph max for the 100E, including the power sapping vacuum wipers, bone of much contention. This was my big brother's first car, and the most I saw in it was an indicated 55 mph. It was a 103E (?) and bought from a policeman iirc it had the reg PC 49

If it was a 103E top speed of that was 61 mph.

Funnily enough a 100E was my big bruvvers first car. Have fond memories of blatting, if one could ever blatt in a 100E, across the tops in Yorkshire in the sort of snow we used to get, snow chains flailing away, plenty plenty sideways, chortling away like a pair of hooligans which we were on the quiet.

Bro bought the car because the local scrotes had found it very funny to nick the local plod's push bike one night, and being brought up on big Harleys he couldn't bring himself to ride the Velocette Noddy bikes that were being issued to local plod at the time. Hence his first car, allowed to use own transport those days.

[dcb]

fozzi said:

Is there a definitive list of motorway speed limits within the Europe?.. Reckon it would make interesting, yet depressing reading.

It does.

Germany no limit
Italy 150/130
Austria 130
Croatia 130
Czech Rep 130
Lithuania 130
Russia 130
Slovak Rep 130
Slovenia 130
France 130/110
Belgium 120
Bulgaria 120
Finland 120
Greece 120
Hungary 120
Luxembourg 120
Macedonia 120
Netherlands 120
Portugal 120
Romania 120
Spain 120
Switzerland 120
Turkey 120
UK 112
Eire 112
Denmark 110
Poland 110
Sweden 110
Moldova 90
Norway 80-90

Note that UK is near the bottom of the list. Also note that due
to "cultural differences" there are considerable variations
in how well these limits are enforced.

E.g. 100 mph in the UK, you are passed getting ticketed and you
are going to court.

Same speed in France the police would be reluctant to do anything
i.e. even getting ticketed is unlikely.

100 mph in Italy - get out of my way.

[vonhosen]

But look where Italy & France are in the tables of deaths on motorways.

Italy 12.8 per b/km
France 5.4
UK 2.0



>> Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 18th April 19:00

[turbobloke]

vonhosen said:

But look where Italy & France are in the tables of deaths on motorways. Italy 12.8 per b/km France 5.4 UK 2.0

There's no evidence to suggest that this is caused by anything in particular - Italy and France both have higher seasonally adjusted unemployment rates than GB, is that it?

[flemke]

turbobloke said:

There's no evidence to suggest that this is caused by anything in particular - Italy and France both have higher seasonally adjusted unemployment rates than GB, is that it?

Hmmm...
Unemployment leads to disaffection, which leads to depression, which leads to under-production of serotonin, which impairs ability to focus, extends reaction time and compromises fine motor skills, which would certainly bring about more traffic accidents.
You're on to something there, TB. Best get the word to Alastair Darling asap.

[vonhosen]

turbobloke said:

vonhosen said: But look where Italy & France are in the tables of deaths on motorways. Italy 12.8 per b/km France 5.4 UK 2.0 There's no evidence to suggest that this is caused by anything in particular - Italy and France both have higher seasonally adjusted unemployment rates than GB, is that it?

It's not just them though is it ?

If we look at the list above & the table of death rates on motorways in Europe there is very much a look of the above list turned upside down.

>> Edited by vonhosen on Tuesday 18th April 19:37

[turbobloke]

flemke said:

turbobloke said: There's no evidence to suggest that this is caused by anything in particular - Italy and France both have higher seasonally adjusted unemployment rates than GB, is that it? Hmmm... Unemployment leads to disaffection, which leads to depression, which leads to under-production of serotonin, which impairs ability to focus, extends reaction time and compromises fine motor skills, which would certainly bring about more traffic accidents. You're on to something there, TB. Best get the word to Alastair Darling asap.

Somehow I don't think vh is convinced flemke, do you think he's limited by considerations of speed limits or something less relevant than serotonin correlations

The other possibility was divorce rates, there are 2.7 divorces per 1,000 of the population compared with France on 2.0 and Italy only 0.6, which might support a serotonin-oxytocin theory...

[fozzi]

dcb said:

fozzi said: Is there a definitive list of motorway speed limits within the Europe?.. Reckon it would make interesting, yet depressing reading. It does.... for list.. see above Note that UK is near the bottom of the list. Also note that due to "cultural differences" there are considerable variations in how well these limits are enforced. E.g. 100 mph in the UK, you are passed getting ticketed and you are going to court. Same speed in France the police would be reluctant to do anything i.e. even getting ticketed is unlikely. 100 mph in Italy - get out of my way.

Thanks for that!