A poem for those that love speed limits
Discussion
greenv8 said:
How many drivers on our roads can safely exploit the "full" potential of their cars in all circumstances ?
That is irrelevent unless you think that drivers are, or should be, racing on public roads.
VH - by dumb inappropriately low and even dumber enforcement, the opportunities for drivers to learn to safely exploit anywhere near the "full" potential of their cars anywhere is being lost. And those who can undoubtedly are massively safer when exploiting say, 85% of the "full" potential of their cars.
GreenV8 - I would suggest that racing and learning to exploit the "full" potential of a car are totally different things
turbobloke said:
Why is train and track design for faster speeds plus safe cornering and stopping making the progress that it is, if it is inherently unsafe due to the driver? Why has passenger air travel progressed from blimps to supersonic speeds safely if the pilot is the limiting factor in everyday flying?
There will be a variation in skill level in train drivers and pilots as there is in motorists who carry passengers and coach drivers who carry more, but all who are allowed to operate each of these are deemed to have met a certain minimum level, which will vary from sector to sector.
Alternative transport modes show that as safety systems improve, sanctioned speeds and performance criteria are extended correspondingly, except for road transport which is subject to archaic and anal levels of safety totalitarianism.
The reason why trains and planes are generally safer while operating at generally higher speeds is also pertinent. It relates to the reason why our motorways are our safest roads - pedestrians and cyclists are banned from train tracks as well as motorways, and there are competency tests for everyone (and their machinery) who takes to the skies and the tracks.
As vehicle and environmental safety systems for motoring have improved, there is no justification in safety terms for archaic restrictions to be kept in place.
There's more good advice from these alternative transport modes. Pilots are objecting on safety grounds to the highest levels of automation, as this is seen to lower pilot concentration levels, dumb down piloting, and go beyond the peak of the curve for enhanced safety. Dumbing down drivers by mind numbingly slow speed limits and external vehicle control risks the same loss of safety.
Both air & rail can exert more control over their environment than road.
Both use far more automation than the car.
Don't fret though, I'm sure the day is coming that you will get onto a motorway & your spacing, speed, entry & exit will all be controlled by automation removing the weakest links input. This will allow more vehicles to fit in the same space & mainatin a more constant safe speed.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 16th April 11:44
vonhosen said:
Still, it's nice being treated like adults.
But unlikely in the UK.
To be honest I think further regulation of Autobhans currently de-restricted sections is more likely than de-regulation of our motorways.
Austria seems to be doing the Right Thing, or at least something close.
& look where they are on the motorway fatality table.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 15th April 20:35
Skewed in the East .. A/bahn Hamburg-Berlin- Leipzig loop appear to have more than most. Ist limited to 80 mph in big stretches too.
Richard C said:
How many drivers on our roads can safely exploit the "full" potential of their cars in all circumstances ?
That is irrelevent unless you think that drivers are, or should be, racing on public roads.
VH - by dumb inappropriately low and even dumber enforcement, the opportunities for drivers to learn to safely exploit anywhere near the "full" potential of their cars anywhere is being lost. And those who can undoubtedly are massively safer when exploiting say, 85% of the "full" potential of their cars.
GreenV8 - I would suggest that racing and learning to exploit the "full" potential of a car are totally different things
What I have been continually saying is that learning (if desired/needed) shouldn't take place in an unstructured informal way. If we are going to have it we have to have it to defined standards.
vonhosen said:True but irrelevant.
Both air & rail can exert more control over their environment than road.
Both use far more automation than the car.
Safety in all transport systems consists of vehicle, operator and environment factors.
With trains and planes, each considered separately not in comparison, as the sum of these factors has improved, faster operating speeds have been sanctioned and accepted.
For road transport, in its own way, that has not happened, and shows that archaic restrictions are now baseless.
vonhosen said:Yes that's one future but there are folk working hard to prevent such a folly.
I'm sure the day is coming that you will get onto a motorway & your spacing, speed, entry & exit will all be controlled by automation removing the weakest links input. This will allow more vehicles to fit in the same space & mainatin a more constant safe speed.
mg6b said:
The motorway limit is absurdly low, as is evidence by the proportion of drivers who ignore it.
It isn't if you have to stop quickly or having stopped quickly try to get out of the way of someone who is ignoring the limit and everything else that is at that moment rather important!
But then - you drive with sufficient distance behind car in front to be able to stop
If you are copped tailgating in Germany, Austria und Switzerland (und they regard tailgating as ignoring minimum 2 seconds - you are charged with negligent driving. Ist a little different than "undue care or careless" as it ist a bit in-between these our undue/careless und the dangerous one. It carry penalties harsher than our careless but not as harsh as dangerous. It thus bridge the gap! Und of course - mirror use ist of prime inportance und you are also supposed to assist overtakes in Continental driving standards - including Italy und France
Archaic speed limits have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with anal levels of control freakery. There is NO justification for them. Our motorway speed limit has been in disrepute and widely ignored for years, this is the clearest signal that it is an inappropriate and basless law / restriction.
Zod said:
Yes it is. By your argument, the limit should be much lower.
The statistics I posted above make abundantly clear that Germany's lack of a limit is not a statistically significant contributor to higher death rates.
Also they have higher proportion of KSI - as we do ... in the shopping areas where people rush around .. to catch buses... return heavy bags to cars...catch shops before they close...just like here ... und ist where COAST really applies.
vonhosen said:
What I have been continually saying is that learning (if desired/needed) shouldn't take place in an unstructured informal way. If we are going to have it we have to have it to defined standards.
I would say that learning/teaching is most certainly needed. There is no point whatsoever in setting defined standards - what is the incentive - nothing...diddly squit.
So people like me will seek the teaching and do the self learning ...yes in an informal and unstructured way. In my case look I would say the results are reasonable - a million road miles with a single 2 mile/h rear-ender ( due to my own lack of anticipation ) and 2000 competition miles National Rally Championship win ( without a single damaging 'off')
And who should set the standards ? Are they going to be result orientated or process oriented ? I suspect the latter.
I guess you and I are at opposite ends of the 'authoritarian-libertarian' spectrum.
Neither of us are right all of the time
vonhosen said:
Lots
Of course not everyone who can fly a plane, can safely & adequately fly a multi million pound war plane. To do so you have to have a lot of training.
Measured in flying hours
But where I live.. we know all about this training. I am sure he fly low to get good look at me dipping my paws in our outside pool.
We have a small pool ..ist rather cold at the moment though. We had one incident during a summer barbecue .. one of our dogs learned how to swim that day..
There she was .. on the cadge .. sitting up und begging und giving the pleaful und woeful (begrduge every human mouthful) look only a dog on the cadge can give...
She was at edge of pool - tail a-wagging in anticipation when #
V A-A- RRRRRR-OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO -MMMMMMMM-MMMM-MMM!
She jumped in a start, und more or less somesaulted into the pool
I find it entertaining to watch them train. My neighbours complain about the noise...
vonhosen said:
So it should be with not being restricted by speed limits on our roads. You should have the highest available training before you are allowed to drive at the highest possible levels.
We need this test to include a motorway drive at the very least
vonhosen said:
Until then it's Pipers not Eurofighters.
Of course there would then be the question of do we all need Eurofighters or are Pipers actually perfectly serviceable for the intended job etc.
But we all learn with experience as well - und driving hours do bring about expertise - an IAM course would consolidate that learning curve
for many vonhosen said:
Sorry to be a little tedious, but what's your view on satellite-controlled speed limiters, such as those being tested by Prof Oliver Carsten at the University of Leeds? Do you think they would reduce crashes - and if so, how?
I suspect that we are going to see some, not just here but in other European countries too. What effect they have remains to be seen.
From what I read from test report from University of Vienna.. these gadgets still not slow to the lolly. They pass lolly at old limit und then decrease. Thus they are not that good. Und also .. if my Sat Nav und so was lose satellite link from time to time ....und I think "tunnels und highest mountains" back home ..
- ist not going to be as good as they appear to think. I find this "technology ist there .. technology better than human" fall flat. Ist there - tbut the human being ist the repsonsible one und has to be in control of situation und able to pilot und drive manually und not "on auto-power"
Ist not a cure all..
WildCat said:Think I can see this - do you see any difference in 'automatic' safety systems that support by enhancing or mediating a driver's inputs, and those that remove control and responsibility from the driver?
I find this "technology ist there .. technology better than human" fall flat. Ist there - tbut the human being ist the repsonsible one und has to be in control of situation und able to pilot und drive manually und not "on auto-power"
Ist not a cure all..
vonhosen said:
We also have the issue of emissions & noise when speed limits are being considered, not just safety.
If your goal is to control noise or air quality then it would be more appropriate to monitor and regulate those factors, rather than hit everyone with the 'speed' stick. But if you *are* going to use speed limits in an attempt to control noise or pollution then you'd better make the punishment fit the crime. Penalties that might be appropriate for the serious offense of driving dangerously fast are imo grossly excessive for a minor misdemeanor such as being suspected of making 'too much' noise or pollution.
It's not my goal.
Noise pollution ruled out a motorway increase last time it was considered (I believe).
Most modern cars are fairly quiet - purring along ..
Germany has big thing on noise pollution. As Austria, Switzerland... you can still tootle along at 80 mph though.
vonhosen said:
There is a lot of environmental pressure as well to enforce the 70 limit rigidly, as the last report I saw seemed to suggest that the measurements showed that about 65mph was the optimum speed for emissions.
Und industry churns out?
Austria ist very green conscious but they appear to be going ahead with 160 kph test on motorway which cut through a National Park ..
vonhosen said:
Speed limits have never been about actual danger being caused anyway (no proof of that required & dangerous driving was there for that), that is not the way they are written, it is more in a preventative nature.
In the road safety bill changes are happening to allow variation in FPN point allocation based on the level over the limit.
Yes .. 2 points und fine for a marginal blip to 10% +2 (so it could include 32 mph .) ... You should read this more closely
und not let Tone the Drone pull the rosy coloured lenses over your eyes vonhosen said:Officialdom's ignorance of road safety principles is exceeded by a far margin when it comes to environmental issues, where statements and policy are both beyond what amoebic levels of awareness would countenance.
There is a lot of environmental pressure as well to enforce the 70 limit rigidly, as the last report I saw seemed to suggest that the measurements showed that about 65mph was the optimum speed for emissions.
vonhosen said:
Skewed in the East .. A/bahn Hamburg-Berlin- Leipzig loop appear to have more than most. Ist limited to 80 mph in big stretches too.
Why don't they de-restrict it all then, if de-restricted roads are the answer ?
>> Edited by vonhosen on Sunday 16th April 11:48
There are a few folk campaigning
Ist them Greenies und the fact that this motorway ist still being repaired after years of Stasi rot. In fact .. GDR roads are still in state of disrepair. It take time to bring all to standard ... place was a right mess in reality.. Ist where the RheinGold went to.. down a big moneypit called GDR
Ist like watching Mr Blandings building his dream house..
turbobloke said:
I find this "technology ist there .. technology better than human" fall flat. Ist there - tbut the human being ist the repsonsible one und has to be in control of situation und able to pilot und drive manually und not "on auto-power"
Ist not a cure all..
If the driver understands how und why the automatic safety system kick in und work with it - thus enhancing .. ist fine.
But too often - they do not understand. Some appear not to know how ABS kick in und how to steer around the danger once it engage. I think there could be a good selling point if the dealers/manufacturers offered a free lesson in "getting to know the vehicle you buy" as part of package deal.
I spend hours in driveway each time I buy my new toys .. playing with the switches
Und then I book a track day to get to know him as intimately (My cars are always dishy male.. my husband refers to his as his "harem" .. so two can play at that.. I have my "fleet" of "toy boys!" We have the Stag und the three Moggies und the two Jags und are minding a couple for a cousin.
But if something take away skill ...und you rely in this (cruise control seem to be one .. und sat nav - which people blindly follow to tune of 600 mile detour und going up roads which are not meant for neith motor car nor bicycle
) - then we are in greater danger as people begin to cease thinking for selves or applying common sense. Wildcat said:
But if something take away skill ...und you rely in this (cruise control seem to be one .. und sat nav - which people blindly follow to tune of 600 mile detour und going up roads which are not meant for neith motor car nor bicycle ) - then we are in greater danger as people begin to cease thinking for selves or applying common sense.
vonhosen said:
You don't have a right to speed on land that you don't own (or share with others) - I've never quite understood why some people think they do
By what right is my freedom constrained?
Because your freedom affects other's freedoms.
Sometimes, sometimes not...
So, when it does not:
By what right is my freedom constrained?
vonhosen said:
There has to be a balance struck & you'll never get everybody happy with where that is placed, but it will be required.
The default should always be less law and less regulation, anything else is oppression.
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