A poem for those that love speed limits
Discussion
Zod said:
What exactly was the point of that rant?
Nobody suggested that ex-Police instructors were claiming still to be qualified Police instructors or that they claimed to be operating under any exemption.
Your increased level of agitation betrays you.
I'm not agitated at all, how on earth is any conversation here going to agitate me ?
I don't worry about such things on a personal level, I'll do what I can on a professional level & leave it at that.
You think what you say surprises me or something ?
Of course it doesn't.
My exclaimation around "Advanced driving courses" is what are they ?
Without any standardisation there is so much that is touted as "Advanced driving" but to know the value of what is being called "Advanced driving" you'd need a judgement based on clearly defined parameters.
You also need to have some idea of standards expected to pass any assessment & that anyone making that assessment doesn't have a financial incentive in the mark your receive. (For the assessment to be of worth)
I know personally of people instructing with some companies who are told to "Go easy & don't look in too much detail" as "These people are paying good money & we do want them to come back"
We can all sit here and talk about Advanced driving, but ultimately be talking about very different criteria & levels of competence which qualifies as it. That's the trouble without a common standard, each will view it from their own stand point & experience of it. Only where people have that common experience will they be talking about the same thing.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 14:13
Zod said:
You insult courses that people have undertaken without any idea which courses they are talking about.
Your own profile states that you are not operating here on a professional level.
You are tying yourself in knots.
I'm not insulting courses , I'm saying that the term "Advanced course" means very little in truth to anyone who deosn't know what course you are talking about & where they have no experience of that course with which to draw referrence against. If people just say "Advanced course" it doesn't give any real information.
The only way we can draw a meaningful referrence about what someone is claiming is an advanced standard (without a known common applied standard) is by observing that standard in application ourselves and referring it against our own standard referrence.
I am not acting here in a professional capacity. I'm a PH'er posting their own opinion just like all others.
As such opinions expressed are my own & can be taken, ignored or influence people reading them, how they see fit.
Outside of here is where I have professional influence on some "Advanced driving", but you may or may not know what that actually refers to.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 14:32
vonhosen said:
My motivation is both safety & the law.
Maybe that is your motivation, but all that comes across is a puritanical obsession with the letter of the law and a general contempt for the driving skills of the general motoring public. Maybe that is a consequence of your job, whatever that is, but it does nothing at all to pursuade me that the law is sensible, or that strict compliance with it is desirable, or that it is something that deserves to be strictly enforced.
GreenV8S said:
My motivation is both safety & the law.
Maybe that is your motivation, but all that comes across is a puritanical obsession with the letter of the law and a general contempt for the driving skills of the general motoring public. Maybe that is a consequence of your job, whatever that is, but it does nothing at all to pursuade me that the law is sensible, or that strict compliance with it is desirable, or that it is something that deserves to be strictly enforced.
I've said what my job is.
Skill levels, yes I speak as I find with referrence to my experience in observing others.
And whilst I have said that every attempt should be made to observe the law, I haven't said that the law should be strictly enforced across the board.
No doubt all of us will have differing views of what constitutes either relaxed or strict enforcement, as is amply demonstrated by the anti camera amongst us here. Some also being in favour of no limits, some only advisory limits, some just higher than present limits & some the same limits but just no cameras etc.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 15:28
vonhosen said:
I am not acting here in a professional capacity. I'm a PH'er posting their own opinion just like all others.
vonhosen said:
I don't worry about such things on a personal level, I'll do what I can on a professional level & leave it at that.
Well, you have me confused and no doubt many others.
What is your job? I am not going to search 970+ posts to find out.
vonhosen said:You know full well what people here regard as an advanced course whether it be Don Palmer, Cadence, BMW Driver Training or several others and you choose to hide behind vagueness in order to insult "advanced courses" that do not measure up to your own mysterious standards (although I suspect that the vonhosen advanced driving course standards begin with: "1. Always adhere to the speed limit."
I'm not insulting courses , I'm saying that the term "Advanced course" means very little in truth to anyone who deosn't know what course you are talking about & where they have no experience of that course with which to draw referrence against. If people just say "Advanced course" it doesn't give any real information.
The only way we can draw a meaningful referrence about what someone is claiming is an advanced standard (without a known common applied standard) is by observing that standard in application ourselves and referring it against our own standard referrence.
. >> Edited by Zod on Monday 17th April 16:26
Zod said:
I am not acting here in a professional capacity. I'm a PH'er posting their own opinion just like all others.
vonhosen said:
I don't worry about such things on a personal level, I'll do what I can on a professional level & leave it at that.
Well, you have me confused and no doubt many others.
What is your job? I am not going to search 970+ posts to find out.
In my professional life I have some insight/input into "Advanced driving" but I'm not here in that capacity, I'm here as a private individual posting their own views.
The views I express will naturally be formed from my personal life & professional life expereinces, but in expressing them I am not expressing the views of my employer or anyone else.
My job is instructing, assessing & testing advanced defensive, offensive, evasive & pursuit driving (in the main but not exclusively), where there are lawful exemptions from speed limits. A part of that training will be an ability in candidates to travel safely at speeds within & ony up to displayed speed limits where the rules dictate that is so.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 16:39
vonhosen said:
My exclaimation around "Advanced driving courses" is what are they ?
Without any standardisation there is so much that is touted as "Advanced driving" but to know the value of what is being called "Advanced driving" you'd need a judgement based on clearly defined parameters.
Knowledge is knowledge, bits of paper are bits of paper.
If the sum of human knowledge is increased, even if only a little; great.
Bits of paper remain bits of paper.
fluffnik said:
My exclaimation around "Advanced driving courses" is what are they ?
Without any standardisation there is so much that is touted as "Advanced driving" but to know the value of what is being called "Advanced driving" you'd need a judgement based on clearly defined parameters.
Knowledge is knowledge, bits of paper are bits of paper.
If the sum of human knowledge is increased, even if only a little; great.
Bits of paper remain bits of paper.
A little knowledge can also be a dangerous thing & if you are taught the wrong things or the wrong ways, they may have only a negative impact.
That is no slight on all the training courses out there at all, there will be good & bad. Just buyer beware.
Because something is touted as advanced, doesn't mean it is necessarily so & as with anything quality will vary immensely, so choose wisely & don't just buy into the hype.
I would view with great suspicion any course that requires you to commit unlawful acts as part of it.
It is with standardised checkable qualifications & criteria (instructors &/or course) that you can have a little more confidence in what you are getting & who is giving it to you. Good will not necessarily be cheap & expensive will not necessarily be good. You wouldn't buy a second hand car without question so don't buy into training like it, be careful & check you are not being sold a pup without any history/paperwork.
You will also get some instructors much better than others within one respected organisation, get the best you can.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 17:14
vonhosen said:Thank you.
I am not acting here in a professional capacity. I'm a PH'er posting their own opinion just like all others.
vonhosen said:
I don't worry about such things on a personal level, I'll do what I can on a professional level & leave it at that.
Well, you have me confused and no doubt many others.
What is your job? I am not going to search 970+ posts to find out.
In my professional life I have some insight/input into "Advanced driving" but I'm not here in that capacity, I'm here as a private individual posting their own views.
The views I express will naturally be formed from my personal life & professional life expereinces, but in expressing them I am not expressing the views of my employer or anyone else.
My job is instructing, assessing & testing advanced defensive, offensive, evasive & pursuit driving (in the main but not exclusively), where there are lawful exemptions from speed limits. A part of that training will be an ability in candidates to travel safely at speeds within & ony up to displayed speed limits where the rules dictate that is so.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 16:39
vonhosen said:
Knowledge is knowledge, bits of paper are bits of paper.
If the sum of human knowledge is increased, even if only a little; great.
Bits of paper remain bits of paper.
A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing & if you are taught the wrong things or the wrong ways, they may have only a negative impact.
No argument there, but an instuctor's skills do not magically evaporate on the stroke of midnight when his certification expires.
vonhosen said:
I would view with great suspicion any course that requires you to commit unlawful acts as part of it.
I might want to have my skills up to snuff for the happy day when oppresive, arbitrary, blanket limits are consigned to history's dustbin, where they belong.
fluffnik said:
No argument there, but an instuctor's skills do not magically evaporate on the stroke of midnight when his certification expires.
In my experience, the higher the level, the quicker the degradation of skills if not used & maintained.
Instructors, just like anyone else, need to have their performance reviewed & updated regularly. Bad habits (in both driving or instructing) do creep in. There is always room for improvement & more to learn.
fluffnik said:
I would view with great suspicion any course that requires you to commit unlawful acts as part of it.
I might want to have my skills up to snuff for the happy day when oppresive, arbitrary, blanket limits are consigned to history's dustbin, where they belong.
I think it very unlikley that arbitrary limits will ever be removed & in the meantime both you & they may find yourselves in the unenviable position of not being allowed to drive at all should you be caught.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 17:39
vonhosen said:Fluffnik expressed his opinion about speed limts. You responded with a barbed comment about loss of licence. If you had to respond, all you need to say was that you disagreed with the necessity of scrapping them.
Oh drop the haughty tone, vonhosen.
What, you expect me to say enjoy yourself don't worry & not express a word of caution ?
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 17:42
I have now had second thoughts about your job description. All you give are hints about being involved in something important and secret. Classic internet fantasist stuff. I am not accusing you of being a fantasist, but either you can give more detail or you have already given too much.
Zod said:
Oh drop the haughty tone, vonhosen.
What, you expect me to say enjoy yourself don't worry & not express a word of caution ?
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 17:42
I have now had second thoughts about your job description. All you give are hints about being involved in something important and secret. Classic internet fantasist stuff. I am not accusing you of being a fantasist, but either you can give more detail or you have already given too much.
I've said what I do, nothing barbed in it or secret about it, it's quite clear I thought (& you obviously thought so to before your last snipe), which bit is confusing ?
Have whatever thoughts you like about it though, like I said people can take it, ignore it or be influenced by it, their choice.
vonhosen said:Don't you understand why people here are suspicious of you? You turn up and post 1000 times in a single month (i.e. 30+ times per day, 7 days a week) with some sensible stuff, but an awully large proportion of evangelism about speed limits
Oh drop the haughty tone, vonhosen.
What, you expect me to say enjoy yourself don't worry & not express a word of caution ?
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 17:42
I have now had second thoughts about your job description. All you give are hints about being involved in something important and secret. Classic internet fantasist stuff. I am not accusing you of being a fantasist, but either you can give more detail or you have already given too much.
I've said what I do, nothing barbed in it or secret about it, it's quite clear I thought (& you obviously thought so to before your last snipe), which bit is confusing ?
Have whatever thoughts you like about it though, like I said people can take it, ignore it or be influenced by it, their choice.
Zod said:
Don't you understand why people here are suspicious of you? You turn up and post 1000 times in a single month (i.e. 30+ times per day, 7 days a week) with some sensible stuff, but an awully large proportion of evangelism about speed limits
I haven't started any threads here, I've merely responded with my views about limits in reply to those expressed by others, I thought that's what places like this are about. Surely we aren't all expected to agree or there'd be no discussion.
Perhaps the proliferation of my posts is relative to my belief that speed limits are necessary to exert some influence on attainable speeds & control risk on our roads. I am not saying speed is dangerous per se at all, just that there needs to be limits on it's use.
What's there to be suspicious about ? For that there would have to be an ulterior motive & what could that be or what could I achieve in relation to it by discussing such held views here ?
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 18:12
If vh is employed by 'the authorities' or the employer is dependent on 'the authorities' then it'd be unwise to step too far off-message.
If vh acknoweldged that speed limits are widely in disrepute and largely unrelated to safety, so it's perfectly safe to exceed the speed limit by some margin on a great many occasions - as is self-evident to anyone who drives a car further than the end of their road and back - then apart from the problem above, it would make the job of 'advanced' driving instructor less justifiable, less worthy perhaps, and it's a rare individual in this kind of environment that would openly disparage their job.
It might be that vh likes to think that nobody has frequently driven at very high speed safely (apart from vh and various protegés) when a lot of folk on here have experience and expertise like that derived from travelling abroad a lot, circuit training, and even everyday driving in some of the highest performing cars available.
Secret gardens must remain secret.
If vh acknoweldged that speed limits are widely in disrepute and largely unrelated to safety, so it's perfectly safe to exceed the speed limit by some margin on a great many occasions - as is self-evident to anyone who drives a car further than the end of their road and back - then apart from the problem above, it would make the job of 'advanced' driving instructor less justifiable, less worthy perhaps, and it's a rare individual in this kind of environment that would openly disparage their job.
It might be that vh likes to think that nobody has frequently driven at very high speed safely (apart from vh and various protegés) when a lot of folk on here have experience and expertise like that derived from travelling abroad a lot, circuit training, and even everyday driving in some of the highest performing cars available.
Secret gardens must remain secret.
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