A poem for those that love speed limits
Discussion
Zod said:
OAP?
You forget that most of us have direct experience of it on Germany's unrestricted Autobahnen where everyone deals with it quite safely.
Perhaps more emphasis on lane dicipline rather than speed would help.
You mean where there are higher fatality rates than here ?
These statistics are the ones ones that show the truth:
Fatals/bkm Motorways
UK 2.1
Sweden 2.5
Netherlands 3.2
Switzerland 3.5
Germany 3.7
Denmark 4.1
Japan 4.1
Finland 4.5
France 4.8
US 5.1
Ireland 7.4
Belgium 7.6
Austria 9.2
Italy 9.9
source: 2001 IRTAD International Road Traffic Accident Database OECD August 2003 www.bast.de/facthemen/irtad//engliIf I used your level of spin, I would employ these figures to compare the effects of a 55mph limit in the US with no limit in much of Germany and conclude that low limits are lethal.
And look who tops the table & as such could be said to have the right balance ?
Zod said:
You cannot derive from that table that our speed limit is the reason for our fatality figures. To suggest that you can is ludicrous.
I'm not saying that, but I am saying that the combination of our policies mean that we are in the enviable position, not those with de-restricted autobahns. Perhaps they should be looking to emulate us, not us them.
Zod said:
You are playing games. The only concrete policy difference is in relation to speed limits. If you are honest, you will say that Germany would reduce fatal accidents by introducing a blanket 70 mph speed limit on the Autobahn.
No it is a combination of policies. If it were simply just down to speed limits then the USA would be higher up the table than Germany as you say.
vonhosen said:
I am saying that the combination of our policies mean that we are in the enviable position, not those with de-restricted autobahns. Perhaps they should be looking to emulate us, not us them.
Did you see the recent BBC programme that took a Rambo-esque UK unmarked car trafpol driver to Germany and put him in a German police car?
He got quite upset about the speeds he observed and came across with the same attitude as yours.
When the presenter mentioned that casualties on his patch were seven times worse than the German road, he went very quiet....
mybrainhurts said:
I am saying that the combination of our policies mean that we are in the enviable position, not those with de-restricted autobahns. Perhaps they should be looking to emulate us, not us them.
Did you see the recent BBC programme that took a Rambo-esque UK unmarked car trafpol driver to Germany and put him in a German police car?
He got quite upset about the speeds he observed and came across with the same attitude as yours.
When the presenter mentioned that casualties on his patch were seven times worse than the German road, he went very quiet....
Did he ?
And what's my attitude to speed ?
I do not say speed alone is dangerous.
Speed doesn't upset me & they are free to implement any system they see fit within the wishes of their society.
I just don't think we should be holding out Germany as some sort of ideal when their death rates, per km, per head of populaton & on motorways are worse than ours.
vonhosen said:
Because if we don't have limits differentials increase more markedly & with markedly increased differentials risks increase.
That's a theory, and it's rubbish.....
I used to drive before the introduction of the UK's blanket limit. It was NEVER a problem. I used to drive the length of the M1 without dropping below 100mph.
I've driven extensivley in Europe, too, also pre-blanket limits, and the same applied there.
Differentials serve to spread the traffic out and reduce bunching, thereby reducing multiple vehicle collisions.
Established safety experts put that very point to the government in an attempt to prevent the introduction of the blanket limit.
mybrainhurts said:
I used to drive before the introduction of the UK's blanket limit. It was NEVER a problem. I used to drive the length of the M1 without dropping below 100mph.
Oh yeah the M1 in 1965 was very similar to now.
mybrainhurts said:
I've driven extensivley in Europe, too, also pre-blanket limits, and the same applied there.
Differentials serve to spread the traffic out and reduce bunching, thereby reducing multiple vehicle collisions.
Established safety experts put that very point to the government in an attempt to prevent the introduction of the blanket limit.
I know exactly the importance of being able to deal with increased differentials on our roads in today's climates, because I teach it.
vonhosen said:
I used to drive before the introduction of the UK's blanket limit. It was NEVER a problem. I used to drive the length of the M1 without dropping below 100mph.
Oh yeah the M1 in 1965 was very similar to now.
I didn't think I needed to state the obvious, I refer to the principle. Having said that, there are still periods of light traffic today.
vonhosen said:
I've driven extensivley in Europe, too, also pre-blanket limits, and the same applied there.
Differentials serve to spread the traffic out and reduce bunching, thereby reducing multiple vehicle collisions.
Established safety experts put that very point to the government in an attempt to prevent the introduction of the blanket limit.
I know exactly the importance of being able to deal with increased differentials on our roads in today's climates, because I teach it.
Yes, but you seem to be at odds with other expert views on whether it is a hazard.
Another point for vonhosen:
One area in which the Germans are ahed of us in motorway policy is in having reduced speed limits for wet conditions. Since you have not managed to point ot an aspect of UK motorways policy other than speed limits that contributes to the less level of deaths here, I will point one out for you. The average quality of our motorways is (and I know this will surprise some people) rather higher than that of the Autobahn network, much of which is two lane with old, water-retaining, uneven surfaces.
One area in which the Germans are ahed of us in motorway policy is in having reduced speed limits for wet conditions. Since you have not managed to point ot an aspect of UK motorways policy other than speed limits that contributes to the less level of deaths here, I will point one out for you. The average quality of our motorways is (and I know this will surprise some people) rather higher than that of the Autobahn network, much of which is two lane with old, water-retaining, uneven surfaces.
vonhosen said:
OAP?
You forget that most of us have direct experience of it on Germany's unrestricted Autobahnen where everyone deals with it quite safely.
Perhaps more emphasis on lane dicipline rather than speed would help.
You mean where there are higher fatality rates than here ?
These statistics are the ones ones that show the truth:
Fatals/bkm Motorways
UK 2.1
Sweden 2.5
Netherlands 3.2
Switzerland 3.5
Germany 3.7
Denmark 4.1
Japan 4.1
Finland 4.5
France 4.8
US 5.1
Ireland 7.4
Belgium 7.6
Austria 9.2
Italy 9.9
source: 2001 IRTAD International Road Traffic Accident Database OECD August 2003 www.bast.de/facthemen/irtad//engliIf I used your level of spin, I would employ these figures to compare the effects of a 55mph limit in the US with no limit in much of Germany and conclude that low limits are lethal.
And look who tops the table & as such could be said to have the right balance ?
Coach crashes skewed Austrian, French und German figures.
Also you have to remember that Austria, Germany, Switzlerland - accidents due to bad weather and not just speed. High Alps can be lethal in ice.
These countries also have an even higher proportion of foreign drivers from the East on their roads. These drivers are skilled within driving test requirement of own country but not of standard required in West. Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France do require non EU residents (including US .Canadain/Oz) sit their national standard driving tests within 6 months if permanent residency planned.
Also Germany? If you look closely Rhein/Ruhr limited und congested stretches und Dresden routes see most of their A/bahn KSI.
Switzerland? Them foreigners cutting across us cause them
Likewise Austria ..
Zod said:
Another point for vonhosen:
One area in which the Germans are ahed of us in motorway policy is in having reduced speed limits for wet conditions. Since you have not managed to point ot an aspect of UK motorways policy other than speed limits that contributes to the less level of deaths here, I will point one out for you. The average quality of our motorways is (and I know this will surprise some people) rather higher than that of the Autobahn network, much of which is two lane with old, water-retaining, uneven surfaces.
We do have variable limits on some of our motorways & they are something that (if you have looked at previous posts of mine) I personally think are a good thing.
I am also quite aware there are differences in engineering quality of the roads themselves. As I said though a variety of policies place us higher up the table.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 15th April 19:42
WildCat said:
OAP?
You forget that most of us have direct experience of it on Germany's unrestricted Autobahnen where everyone deals with it quite safely.
Perhaps more emphasis on lane dicipline rather than speed would help.
You mean where there are higher fatality rates than here ?
These statistics are the ones ones that show the truth:
Fatals/bkm Motorways
UK 2.1
Sweden 2.5
Netherlands 3.2
Switzerland 3.5
Germany 3.7
Denmark 4.1
Japan 4.1
Finland 4.5
France 4.8
US 5.1
Ireland 7.4
Belgium 7.6
Austria 9.2
Italy 9.9
source: 2001 IRTAD International Road Traffic Accident Database OECD August 2003 www.bast.de/facthemen/irtad//engliIf I used your level of spin, I would employ these figures to compare the effects of a 55mph limit in the US with no limit in much of Germany and conclude that low limits are lethal.
And look who tops the table & as such could be said to have the right balance ?
Coach crashes skewed Austrian, French und German figures.
And I suppose we don't have coaches & they don't crash here ?
Our figures are consistently higher up the table, it's not in isolation.
Wildcat said:
These countries also have an even higher proportion of foreign drivers from the East on their roads. These drivers are skilled within driving test requirement of own country but not of standard required in West. Germany, Austria, Switzerland, France do require non EU residents (including US .Canadain/Oz) sit their national standard driving tests within 6 months if permanent residency planned.
And we have seen a large influx of Eastern Europeans in the last few years too.
Wildcat said:
Also Germany? If you look closely Rhein/Ruhr limited und congested stretches und Dresden routes see most of their A/bahn KSI.
They are not alone, we have our own very congested (probably more so than them) sections of our network.
vonhosen said:
You forget that most of us have direct experience of it on Germany's unrestricted Autobahnen where everyone deals with it quite safely.
Perhaps more emphasis on lane dicipline rather than speed would help.
You mean where there are higher fatality rates than here ?
Yup, a bit higher than here and much lower than many, many places with low limits.
I'm still strongly agreeing with Ben Franklin.
...and what's OAP?
Zod said:
Another point for vonhosen:
One area in which the Germans are ahed of us in motorway policy is in having reduced speed limits for wet conditions. Since you have not managed to point ot an aspect of UK motorways policy other than speed limits that contributes to the less level of deaths here, I will point one out for you. The average quality of our motorways is (and I know this will surprise some people) rather higher than that of the Autobahn network, much of which is two lane with old, water-retaining, uneven surfaces.
Hard shoulders tend to be narrower and less ubiquitous and junctions tighter too.
Still, it's nice being treated like adults.
fluffnik said:
You forget that most of us have direct experience of it on Germany's unrestricted Autobahnen where everyone deals with it quite safely.
Perhaps more emphasis on lane dicipline rather than speed would help.
You mean where there are higher fatality rates than here ?
Yup, a bit higher than here and much lower than many, many places with low limits.
I'm still strongly agreeing with Ben Franklin.
...and what's OAP?
Well degrees of freedom against restriction come down to personal opinion.
OAP = Observation, Anticipation & Planning.
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