Use of the Hardshoulder
Discussion
Going off the back of the post about pulling over for unmarked police cars...
As I understand it the Hardshoulder is to be used for "Emergencies Only", so you cant stop there to check a map or make a telephone call or answer the call of nature right?
But its ok for the BiB to pull you over on to the HS and spend 15 mins telling you off ?? Funny emergency!
As I understand it the Hardshoulder is to be used for "Emergencies Only", so you cant stop there to check a map or make a telephone call or answer the call of nature right?
But its ok for the BiB to pull you over on to the HS and spend 15 mins telling you off ?? Funny emergency!
There are a number of exemptions as to why you can be on the hard shoulder, It's not just emergencies (though reading a map isn't one of them).
It can also be on the directions of a constable, which is what it will be when you are stopped by Police.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 11:43
It can also be on the directions of a constable, which is what it will be when you are stopped by Police.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 11:43
vonhosen said:
There are a number of exemptions as to why you can be on the hard shoulder, It's not just emergencies (though reading a map isn't one of them).
It can also be on the directions of a constable, which is what it will be when you are stopped by Police.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 11:43
Yes, but the direction needs to be lawful. A PC cannot lawfully order a person to do something dangerous!
kenp said:
There are a number of exemptions as to why you can be on the hard shoulder, It's not just emergencies (though reading a map isn't one of them).
It can also be on the directions of a constable, which is what it will be when you are stopped by Police.
Yes, but the direction needs to be lawful. A PC cannot lawfully order a person to do something dangerous!
The direction is lawful.
The dynamic risk assessment is one the trained officer must make & they must manage. Where they think it too dangerous to stay there, then they will direct you to another location.
vonhosen said:In a report that HM Inspector of Constabularies would not release, but spoke about in general terms to the media, one Force had a significant percentage of its motorway plod untrained for that role, i.e. several tens of percent. There's more on the general malaise here from a polfed document
The dynamic risk assessment is one the trained officer must make & they must manage. Where they think it too dangerous to stay there, then they will direct you to another location.
Polfed article on roads policing said:
Nottingham: In 2002 we ceased to police the roads. Traffic, and even the motorcycle section, were disbanded. We were supposed to turn to the new concept of roads policing, but this is the very last thing we do...if we arrest a drunken or disqualified driver, it doesn’t count towards an SPP, but shoplifiting and minor domestic assaults do...our small Motorway Unit does not work nights on the M1...The A1 is covered by drivers without traffic training or experience. If lucky, they have had a one day course in coning accidents and basic safety. How long will it be before an officer is killed or maimed?
Kent: The Kent motorway network is policed by a dedicated unit which has gone down from 250 to 100 officers. Those officers are facing unacceptable pressures to cope with incidents, travelling huge distances to respond to calls, with little prospect of back-up if it is required...
Trafpol Inspector (area not known): We are told to engage with
the public. We used to do that through dealing with motoring offenders. By dealing with them, by giving advice, warnings, or process, we often made a positive impression. Now we have inanimate cameras...
Section highlighted particularly in view of implications for quality of safety guidance from 'trafpol' on major roads akin to motorways such as the A1.
This is one of those judgement call situations.
I remember a successful conviction around 5 years ago for a woman who had stopped on the hard shoulder because she felt ill and was sure she was about to vomit. It was somewhere in the south ... M4 .. M3?
Seem's that didn't constitute an emergency for the BiB who checked up on the stopped car (how many times have I been on the hard shoulder and seen patrol cars go past me? Another thread, that one) nor for the magistrates. Small fine and points .... but I don't think it was appealled, so this forms no precedent.
I remember a successful conviction around 5 years ago for a woman who had stopped on the hard shoulder because she felt ill and was sure she was about to vomit. It was somewhere in the south ... M4 .. M3?
Seem's that didn't constitute an emergency for the BiB who checked up on the stopped car (how many times have I been on the hard shoulder and seen patrol cars go past me? Another thread, that one) nor for the magistrates. Small fine and points .... but I don't think it was appealled, so this forms no precedent.
kenp said:
There are a number of exemptions as to why you can be on the hard shoulder, It's not just emergencies (though reading a map isn't one of them).
It can also be on the directions of a constable, which is what it will be when you are stopped by Police.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 11:43
Yes, but the direction needs to be lawful. A PC cannot lawfully order a person to do something dangerous!
They can if it is within the law
My suggestion to you is do what ever you like. You may have to suffer the consequences
In the Met you have to be 'Fast Road' trained to engage in stops/incidents etc on any road with a 50+. Hence any incident that occurs on A and M roads has to be dealt with by Traffic. The training is quite specific, and i don't believe it's available to Divisional Advanced drivers (not that it's my bag anyway). This doesn't mean that Divisional PC's can't stop a vehicle on such roads, it just means that the H&S aspect will have been fully considered, and the stop considered important enough to justify it....
doctorpepper said:
But its ok for the BiB to pull you over on to the HS and spend 15 mins telling you off ?? Funny emergency!
It might be legal, but it's stupid. The hard shoulder is bloody dangerous.
I'd drive to the next exit or services if at all possible. I'd give 'em a wave, slow to 55mph in L1 and let them follow me to the next SAFE stopping place. They would have to be jumping up and down and generally going bonkers before I'd stop on the hard shoulder. And even then, the first thing I'd say would be: "Can we go somewhere safer please?"
kenp said:
It might be legal, but it's stupid. The hard shoulder is bloody dangerous.
Nobody has yet shown conclusively that it is legal. Just because it has been going on for years doesn't make it legal.
Shown what's legal ?
There is a legal requirement for you to stop for a constable in uniform by virtue s163 Road Traffic Act 1988.
Regulation 16 of The Motorways Traffic (England & Wales) Regulations 1982 (as amended by The Motorway Traffic Regulations 2004) provides that you are exempt from stopping on the hard shoulder under the directions of a constable in uniform or traffic officer in uniform. (Regulation 16 also provides their own exemption from stopping on the hard shoulder & other exemptions from Motorway rules).
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 19:19
vonhosen said:
It might be legal, but it's stupid. The hard shoulder is bloody dangerous.
Nobody has yet shown conclusively that it is legal. Just because it has been going on for years doesn't make it legal.
Shown what's legal ?
There is a legal requirement for your to stop for a constable in uniform by virtue s163 Road Traffic Act 1988.
Regulation 16 of The Motorways Traffic (England & Wales) Regulations 1982 (as amended by The Motorway Traffic Regulations 2004) provides that you are exempt from stopping on the hard shoulder under the directions of a constable in uniform or traffic officer in uniform. (Regulation 16 also provides their own exemption from stopping on the hard shoulder & other exemptions from Motorway rules).
As a driver, I also have a legal responsibility to stop in a safe place. Is the hard shoulder a safe place? That's marginal, doubtful even.
vonhosen said:
It might be legal, but it's stupid. The hard shoulder is bloody dangerous.
Nobody has yet shown conclusively that it is legal. Just because it has been going on for years doesn't make it legal.
Shown what's legal ?
There is a legal requirement for you to stop for a constable in uniform by virtue s163 Road Traffic Act 1988.
Regulation 16 of The Motorways Traffic (England & Wales) Regulations 1982 (as amended by The Motorway Traffic Regulations 2004) provides that you are exempt from stopping on the hard shoulder under the directions of a constable in uniform or traffic officer in uniform. (Regulation 16 also provides their own exemption from stopping on the hard shoulder & other exemptions from Motorway rules).
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 19:19
Right let's look at this one step at a time. The power under s163 is not in dispute, the moot point is 'is there a legal requirement to stop in a dangerous place'? Nobody is suggesting that one should not stop at all.
See Regulation 7:
"Must not stop or remain at rest on a carriageway or verge unless broken down, involved in an accident, illness, emergency, to recover or remove an object on the motorway, or to give help to a person in such circumstances. If stoppage is necessary on the carriageway the vehicle must be moved on to the verge as soon as practicable. If stopped on the verge, must not cause obstruction or danger to vehicles on the carriageway, and shall not remain at rest longer than is necessary in the circumstances."
Now Regulation 16 gives limited exemptions to compliance of the Motorway Regulation, but these are aimed at road works (traffic management)and emergencies. I don't have the SI at hand, but a would be very surprised if it gives a wide discretion.
To underline my point regarding legality, The Motorway Traffic Regulations 2004 extends these limited powers to 'Traffic officers'. The consultative paper states:
"5. Their main aim is to keep traffic moving and to make the motorways as safe and reliable as possible. Traffic officers do not have investigatory or law enforcement powers, but it will be an offence not to comply with their directions."
Now if a Traffic Officer gave you directions based on an investigatory or law enforcement need, he would be acting outside of his power ie ultra vires and it would NOT be an offence to ignore his directions.
The realtive part of the SI is
16(1) Nothing in the foregoing provisions of these Regulations shall preclude any person from using a motorway otherwise than in accordance with the provisions in any of the following circumstances, that is to say:
(a) where he does so in accordance with any direction or permission given by a constable in uniform or a traffic officer in uniform with the indication given by a traffic sign;
The law in relation to s163 says
163(1) A person driving a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road must stop the vehicle on being required to do so by a constable in uniform or a traffic officer.
16(1) Nothing in the foregoing provisions of these Regulations shall preclude any person from using a motorway otherwise than in accordance with the provisions in any of the following circumstances, that is to say:
(a) where he does so in accordance with any direction or permission given by a constable in uniform or a traffic officer in uniform with the indication given by a traffic sign;
The law in relation to s163 says
163(1) A person driving a mechanically propelled vehicle on a road must stop the vehicle on being required to do so by a constable in uniform or a traffic officer.
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