Use of the Hardshoulder
Discussion
Is there any overriding assumption that common sense will be applied in deciding how to obey an order? It is easy to imagine situations where literal and immediate obedience of an order to stop would extremely dangerous. I expect that firing the retro rockets and stopping instantly in lane three would result in charges for dangerous driving or worse, so is there an assumption that I will pull over and stop when ordred to stop? Is there a further assumption that I will pull over and stop as soon as it is reasonably safe to do so, rather than slam on the brakes instantly? I don't think that the argument that I am only following orders absolves me of a basic duty of care, so the traffic officer's opinion about where I should stop is not the only one that matters IMO.
GreenV8S said:
Is there any overriding assumption that common sense will be applied in deciding how to obey an order? It is easy to imagine situations where literal and immediate obedience of an order to stop would extremely dangerous. I expect that firing the retro rockets and stopping instantly in lane three would result in charges for dangerous driving or worse, so is there an assumption that I will pull over and stop when ordred to stop? Is there a further assumption that I will pull over and stop as soon as it is reasonably safe to do so, rather than slam on the brakes instantly? I don't think that the argument that I am only following orders absolves me of a basic duty of care, so the traffic officer's opinion about where I should stop is not the only one that matters IMO.
I haven't suggested you should do anything dangerous, I have mostly been giving the law/statute without much comment about practicalities.
Of course there is an overriding assumption of common sense & you have a duty of care, but where your opinion of the first safe opportunity & that of the officer's opinion differs greatly, it may well be that it would lead to a court deciding on relative safety & whether you did infact stop when required to do so as soon as reasonably practicable.
In practice I don't wish to be unnecessarily on the hard shoulder & will make an assessment as to whether it is warranted our being there or moving to another location to continue with the purpose of the stop. I wouldn't expect officers to be unreasonable about that where someone has indicated their willingness to stop & it is not my experience that officers are, but at the same time I wouldn't expect members of the public to be unnecessarily obstructive either and not through inaction acknowledge the request to stop & again it is not my experience that they are either.
>> Edited by vonhosen on Monday 17th April 23:05
About 1982 my hired car blew up on the M11 in january, and it was bloody cold to say the least, so I waited on the hard shoulder hoping for a copper to come along, (no cell phones then), after almost catching hypothermia, I started to walk, and a very nice lady schooltecher gave me a lift into Cambridge.
I duely went to Hertz for a replacement vehicle, and whilst there called the police to report my car stuck on the hard shoulder of the M11, "Are you with the vehicle sir?" he asked, "No, I am in Cambridge" I said, he replied "Do you know sir you have broken the law by leaving a vehicle unattended on a motorway", I politely told him that after waiting over 30 mins for assistance, and almost freezing to death, I walked....
I duely went to Hertz for a replacement vehicle, and whilst there called the police to report my car stuck on the hard shoulder of the M11, "Are you with the vehicle sir?" he asked, "No, I am in Cambridge" I said, he replied "Do you know sir you have broken the law by leaving a vehicle unattended on a motorway", I politely told him that after waiting over 30 mins for assistance, and almost freezing to death, I walked....
Having been stuck on the Hard shoulder a number of times, I was incredulous to see officers using a speed gun on the M40 hard shoulder!! assuming this wasn't for training purposes and Assuming they needed to catch speeders (for whatever reason) surely the overpass next to which they were standing would have been the preffered site?!?
TS
TS
tvrslag said:Seen something that looked like hairdryer action a few times, near Junction 8 A40 Oxford at the bottom of that slightly downhill sweeping bend to the left. Didn't look like a good idea but I don't have the infinite wisdom that politicians and plod top brass get via political correctness.
Having been stuck on the Hard shoulder a number of times, I was incredulous to see officers using a speed gun on the M40 hard shoulder!! assuming this wasn't for training purposes and Assuming they needed to catch speeders (for whatever reason) surely the overpass next to which they were standing would have been the preffered site?!? TS
Turbo.
Irrelevant of the fact they are trying to catch speeders, I'm more concerned for the officers safety. I was in a friends car in the aformentioned incident, Luckily we were in an MPV and we could see over traffic, I saw the Vehicle and the officers before the guy in front and we actually braked (yes he was speeding) before the chap in front, the guy in front almost locked up when he finally saw the officers, and could quite easily have caused an accident in different conditions and circumstances. And when faced with a rear ender what is a natural reaction, turn to avoid, and where do you turn to?? The Hard shoulder springs to mind.
Another incident that occured to a friend when I was a passenger again on the M40 no police involved but just highlights the dangers involved.
The guy was German and he was in A LHD VW Beetle (I know, I know). The weather was terrible and speeds were pretty slow. This guy was in the inside lane, and suddenly the Truck in front braked heavily. Instead of changing lane to the right as you or I might have done in a slight panic, he automatically reverted back to German driving, veered left onto the hard shoulder, God forbid had anything been there we would have hit it head on, at almost 50mph. Brown trouser time I can tell you.
Irrelevant of the fact they are trying to catch speeders, I'm more concerned for the officers safety. I was in a friends car in the aformentioned incident, Luckily we were in an MPV and we could see over traffic, I saw the Vehicle and the officers before the guy in front and we actually braked (yes he was speeding) before the chap in front, the guy in front almost locked up when he finally saw the officers, and could quite easily have caused an accident in different conditions and circumstances. And when faced with a rear ender what is a natural reaction, turn to avoid, and where do you turn to?? The Hard shoulder springs to mind.
Another incident that occured to a friend when I was a passenger again on the M40 no police involved but just highlights the dangers involved.
The guy was German and he was in A LHD VW Beetle (I know, I know). The weather was terrible and speeds were pretty slow. This guy was in the inside lane, and suddenly the Truck in front braked heavily. Instead of changing lane to the right as you or I might have done in a slight panic, he automatically reverted back to German driving, veered left onto the hard shoulder, God forbid had anything been there we would have hit it head on, at almost 50mph. Brown trouser time I can tell you.
turbobloke said:
Vipers, the law is the law, your impending loss of consciousness and death from hypothermia was no excuse, lack of motorway patrols due to cutbacks is irrelevant, fine and points on your frozen body has to be the better route, no limp excuses that's just pathetic OK, obvious, innit.
turbobloke, the law is very often an ass and deserves only to be held up to the ridicule it has so assiduously earned; well said!
I saw the re-creation of the early 90's M4 80 odd vehicle pile up yesterday. It started with a van in the central barrier. One of the contributory factors was a vehicle that stopped on the hard shoulder to help and in fact helped block the escape route.
Of course that was in thick fog and I guess that few BiB would consider being on the hard shoulder in thick fog!
Graham
Of course that was in thick fog and I guess that few BiB would consider being on the hard shoulder in thick fog!
Graham
tvrslag said:Me too
Turbo.
Irrelevant of the fact they are trying to catch speeders, I'm more concerned for the officers safety.
turbobloke said:That was meant int erms of the officer's safety, though I deplore the nature of the task that put them at risk as well. Not their fault, but their risk sadly.
Didn't look like a good idea...
fluffnik said:
Vipers, the law is the law, your impending loss of consciousness and death from hypothermia was no excuse, lack of motorway patrols due to cutbacks is irrelevant, fine and points on your frozen body has to be the better route, no limp excuses that's just pathetic OK, obvious, innit.
turbobloke, the law is very often an ass and deserves only to be held up to the ridicule it has so assiduously earned; well said!
Thanks for both comments, yes I supose I should have sat there and froze to death, but out of interest, where in the highway code does it state "you must stay with your vehicle", I am currently out of the UK and do not have access to my copy. And bearing in mind the advice is if you have to pull into the hard shoulder, you should get out of your vehicle and wait the other side of the barrier, ie on the grass verge, is this not the same as leaving the vehicle?
Oh and to give you some idea of how cold it was, that was the year diesel in lorries was freezing up, guess no additives then, that would be about January 1983!.
>> Edited by vipers on Tuesday 18th April 23:37
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