Speed limit for death crash road
Discussion
Don said:
Blimey, IaHa. Thanks for your input.
Sounds to me like centre armco is necessary...
Why are people misjudging these corners? Maybe this is a case for reactive illuminated signs...
Sounds to me like centre armco is necessary...
Why are people misjudging these corners? Maybe this is a case for reactive illuminated signs...
It is not a dual-carriageway. It is in fact a cracking piece of road. We did a lot of our driver training on it and it is fairly wide and forgiving.
This is in fact one of the problems. The width of the road, the fact that it is a nice road to drive, encourages some to drive beyond their abilities. It was raining at the time of the collision, and it was the first sustained rainfall for quite a number of days. We all know the effect that can have on a road surface. The location of the collision was just beyond a small rise in the road followed by a left hand bend. Loss of control in these circumstances usually always leads to conflict with whatever opposing traffic is present.
But I mustn't go into anymore detail about the collision I'm sure you'll understand, despite the fact that there are no surviving drivers.
I'd agree very strongly that VAS and extra on-road signage would help. I think that certain drivers could be further protected by lane width reduction on the bends, making the road seem narrower, hence might drive more slowly.
But we have to get into the head of the driver immediately prior to the loss of control and make him think about his 'motoring responsibilities' to effect any significant improvement. Hence why VAS (vehicle activated signs) might be about the best idea.
Observer2 said:
IaHa said:
In the last year there have been 3 fatal collisions on that stretch of road causing 13 fatalities. Each one caused by loss of control on a bend.
That is absolutely awful, Ian. I can barely imagine the distress of the families concerned and it must be horrible to deal with for you and your colleagues.
My normal role for this kind of incident would have been family liaison officer until very recently. I'm glad I'm on a secondment to collision investigation at the moment.
Observer2 said:
What is it about this stretch that induces the loss of control? Bend severity? Adverse camber? Road surface? Have there been other non-KSI offs?
Just over top of the small rise on the road, the road bends gently round to the left. If control is lost at the summit then the vector forces are going to take you into the path of opposing traffic. The road was wet for the first time in over a week, so the road surface would have a poorer, but entirely predictable friction coefficient. There is a slight, but again predictable crossfall issue caused by the bend and the slight descent occurring at the same time, but only because there is no positive crossfall.
Yes there are plenty of other collisions on this road, but if you have inappropriate speed/ability for a bend, especially one before which the loss of weight at a hill summit exacerbates your ability to steer, then the risk is always going to be unacceptable for current standards, hence why the safety improvements are being implemented.
IaHa said:
Observer2 said:
IaHa said:
In the last year there have been 3 fatal collisions on that stretch of road causing 13 fatalities. Each one caused by loss of control on a bend.
That is absolutely awful, Ian. I can barely imagine the distress of the families concerned and it must be horrible to deal with for you and your colleagues.
My normal role for this kind of incident would have been family liaison officer until very recently. I'm glad I'm on a secondment to collision investigation at the moment.
We do feel for you Liebchen. You know my cousin IG admit to heaving up his stomach contents in past too. Und my husband say the policeman who looked after him when .. I .. er.. you know the story.... but he say the chap was like a firm "rock" supporting him.
IaHA said:
Observer2 said:
What is it about this stretch that induces the loss of control? Bend severity? Adverse camber? Road surface? Have there been other non-KSI offs?
Just over top of the small rise on the road, the road bends gently round to the left. If control is lost at the summit then the vector forces are going to take you into the path of opposing traffic. The road was wet for the first time in over a week, so the road surface would have a poorer, but entirely predictable friction coefficient. There is a slight, but again predictable crossfall issue caused by the bend and the slight descent occurring at the same time, but only because there is no positive crossfall.
Yes there are plenty of other collisions on this road, but if you have inappropriate speed/ability for a bend, especially one before which the loss of weight at a hill summit exacerbates your ability to steer, then the risk is always going to be unacceptable for current standards, hence why the safety improvements are being implemented.
Ist true .. ist a tricky bend in reality. However .. our own son aged 18 years (almost 19 years) drove this same road about half an hour before this incident. He mention when he came in for his afternoon tea that he found the road surface in general greasy after the hot weather followed by a downpour.. und he say he discern a pull when he drove along on approach to summit und he eased down into the bend to take it at low speed. He say he could discern a "grease slide" - even with the grip on the good make nearly new Michelin tyres on nice little newish Astra we run for him. But he ist aware of grease when it rain after dry spell ..
I think this learner perhaps felt it.. was close to speed limit .. und panicked und lost it. Ist a really sad case und all the worse because this young lad work at garage where we have the Classics serviced. We knew him as acquaintance to talk to und pass chat to .. a lovely boy - ist really sad for all concerned in this. I doubt anyone was speeding. I think ist tragedy of "wet after dry" in reality.
Ist 40 mph correct? Ist not easy to say when we drive this at 57 mph without a problem in good condition but less when not favourable condition...
Ist about training und learning. Should he have been at wheel? WIth kids in car? He was 19 years und a Papa....
I will be allowing the twins to drive with their younger siblings in car. But then like the eldest - they will also complete skid und braking courses...
Tragic event.
I saw a photo of the elderly gents car on the news and it looked like the other car had driven straight into the side of it, which made me think he had pulled put of a junction into the path of the Escort, but after what's been said that's obviously not the case.
I had a similar near miss several weeks ago, when a car was overtaking three other cars coming towards me and heading straight for me on my side of the road. He was going too slow so I braked to give him more time. As he got closer he yanked the steering back to his side of the road, which on the damp surface made the back end slide out to his off side, then panicked and over corrected, which resulted in the car coming across the road immediately behind me as if he was turning right. Straight into an iron railing fence at about 50. If I had been 20 feet further back he would have driven straight into the side of me, as was the case I think in Cumbria. He was also 19, recently passed his test.
I don't know if a reduced speed limit or vehicle activated signs will help in the long run, as those influenced by them need them the least. Alot of the high risk group, young male drivers, won't take any notice of lower limits or new signs and paint.
I think a gritty road surface would be a good idea. If the surface is currently smooth tarmac then no amount of signs and rules will prevent these slides.
I know it sounds bizzare on a single carriageway and I've never seen it, but I like the idea mentioned of a solid crash barrier between the lanes too, that would without doubt prevent a similar tragedy.
That and teaching drivers how their vehicles react on a slippery surface, newly qualified drivers don't have a clue unfortunately.
I saw a photo of the elderly gents car on the news and it looked like the other car had driven straight into the side of it, which made me think he had pulled put of a junction into the path of the Escort, but after what's been said that's obviously not the case.
I had a similar near miss several weeks ago, when a car was overtaking three other cars coming towards me and heading straight for me on my side of the road. He was going too slow so I braked to give him more time. As he got closer he yanked the steering back to his side of the road, which on the damp surface made the back end slide out to his off side, then panicked and over corrected, which resulted in the car coming across the road immediately behind me as if he was turning right. Straight into an iron railing fence at about 50. If I had been 20 feet further back he would have driven straight into the side of me, as was the case I think in Cumbria. He was also 19, recently passed his test.
I don't know if a reduced speed limit or vehicle activated signs will help in the long run, as those influenced by them need them the least. Alot of the high risk group, young male drivers, won't take any notice of lower limits or new signs and paint.
I think a gritty road surface would be a good idea. If the surface is currently smooth tarmac then no amount of signs and rules will prevent these slides.
I know it sounds bizzare on a single carriageway and I've never seen it, but I like the idea mentioned of a solid crash barrier between the lanes too, that would without doubt prevent a similar tragedy.
That and teaching drivers how their vehicles react on a slippery surface, newly qualified drivers don't have a clue unfortunately.
In my own country .. on fast roads und in the High Alp ..
You may notice this if you drive there when sun shine. You see road sometimes glitter just slightly but not dazzlingly..
Ist a trial which appear to have success und ist been trialled for over 5 years to get the data now.
But that tarmac contain rought grit und ground glass as they think this increase tyre grip in slippery condition. Ist some evidence this has some success too.
The road in question.. I think prone to black ice in winter und certainly .. we all know or should know on here
that wet after dry spell mean slippy .. but apart from random inclusion in theory test .. 
We do not hammer home hard enough the other problems drivers, bikers und cyclists alike should look out for .. und it lead to tragedies like this one.
You may notice this if you drive there when sun shine. You see road sometimes glitter just slightly but not dazzlingly..
Ist a trial which appear to have success und ist been trialled for over 5 years to get the data now.
But that tarmac contain rought grit und ground glass as they think this increase tyre grip in slippery condition. Ist some evidence this has some success too.
The road in question.. I think prone to black ice in winter und certainly .. we all know or should know on here
that wet after dry spell mean slippy .. but apart from random inclusion in theory test .. We do not hammer home hard enough the other problems drivers, bikers und cyclists alike should look out for .. und it lead to tragedies like this one.
deeps said:
Tragic event.
I saw a photo of the elderly gents car on the news and it looked like the other car had driven straight into the side of it, which made me think he had pulled put of a junction into the path of the Escort, but after what's been said that's obviously not the case.
I had a similar near miss several weeks ago, when a car was overtaking three other cars coming towards me and heading straight for me on my side of the road. He was going too slow so I braked to give him more time. As he got closer he yanked the steering back to his side of the road, which on the damp surface made the back end slide out to his off side, then panicked and over corrected, which resulted in the car coming across the road immediately behind me as if he was turning right. Straight into an iron railing fence at about 50. If I had been 20 feet further back he would have driven straight into the side of me, as was the case I think in Cumbria. He was also 19, recently passed his test.
I don't know if a reduced speed limit or vehicle activated signs will help in the long run, as those influenced by them need them the least. Alot of the high risk group, young male drivers, won't take any notice of lower limits or new signs and paint.
I think a gritty road surface would be a good idea. If the surface is currently smooth tarmac then no amount of signs and rules will prevent these slides.
I know it sounds bizzare on a single carriageway and I've never seen it, but I like the idea mentioned of a solid crash barrier between the lanes too, that would without doubt prevent a similar tragedy.
That and teaching drivers how their vehicles react on a slippery surface, newly qualified drivers don't have a clue unfortunately.
So if you had been driving SLOWER you would have been in an accident... Interesting. Funny thing speed if you become fixated on it, eh Von I saw a photo of the elderly gents car on the news and it looked like the other car had driven straight into the side of it, which made me think he had pulled put of a junction into the path of the Escort, but after what's been said that's obviously not the case.
I had a similar near miss several weeks ago, when a car was overtaking three other cars coming towards me and heading straight for me on my side of the road. He was going too slow so I braked to give him more time. As he got closer he yanked the steering back to his side of the road, which on the damp surface made the back end slide out to his off side, then panicked and over corrected, which resulted in the car coming across the road immediately behind me as if he was turning right. Straight into an iron railing fence at about 50. If I had been 20 feet further back he would have driven straight into the side of me, as was the case I think in Cumbria. He was also 19, recently passed his test.
I don't know if a reduced speed limit or vehicle activated signs will help in the long run, as those influenced by them need them the least. Alot of the high risk group, young male drivers, won't take any notice of lower limits or new signs and paint.
I think a gritty road surface would be a good idea. If the surface is currently smooth tarmac then no amount of signs and rules will prevent these slides.
I know it sounds bizzare on a single carriageway and I've never seen it, but I like the idea mentioned of a solid crash barrier between the lanes too, that would without doubt prevent a similar tragedy.
That and teaching drivers how their vehicles react on a slippery surface, newly qualified drivers don't have a clue unfortunately.
Don said:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cu
The police say "its too early to speculate" on the causes of the crash and they're already pressing for a change in the speed limit. A young driver. An elderly driver. All sorts of possibilities, reasons and things that may or may not make a difference and the first thing they do...
I despair I really do.
bbc said:
Cumbria County Council now says it is to reduce the speed limit from 60mph to 40mph, and make other changes to improve safety.
Police are continuing to investigate the cause of the crash.
"In the meantime, we are pressing ahead with existing plans to introduce a new 40mph speed limit in the area.
"The scheme will include interactive "slow down" signs, road markings and lighting. Work is due to start early in August."
Police are continuing to investigate the cause of the crash.
"In the meantime, we are pressing ahead with existing plans to introduce a new 40mph speed limit in the area.
"The scheme will include interactive "slow down" signs, road markings and lighting. Work is due to start early in August."
The police say "its too early to speculate" on the causes of the crash and they're already pressing for a change in the speed limit. A young driver. An elderly driver. All sorts of possibilities, reasons and things that may or may not make a difference and the first thing they do...
I despair I really do.
Me too.
Any excuse to lower a speed limit. When will these people learn?
EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION!!
WildCat said:
In my own country .. on fast roads und in the High Alp ..
You may notice this if you drive there when sun shine. You see road sometimes glitter just slightly but not dazzlingly..
Ist a trial which appear to have success und ist been trialled for over 5 years to get the data now.
But that tarmac contain rought grit und ground glass as they think this increase tyre grip in slippery condition. Ist some evidence this has some success too.
The road in question.. I think prone to black ice in winter und certainly .. we all know or should know on here that wet after dry spell mean slippy .. but apart from random inclusion in theory test ..
We do not hammer home hard enough the other problems drivers, bikers und cyclists alike should look out for .. und it lead to tragedies like this one.
You may notice this if you drive there when sun shine. You see road sometimes glitter just slightly but not dazzlingly..
Ist a trial which appear to have success und ist been trialled for over 5 years to get the data now.
But that tarmac contain rought grit und ground glass as they think this increase tyre grip in slippery condition. Ist some evidence this has some success too.
The road in question.. I think prone to black ice in winter und certainly .. we all know or should know on here
that wet after dry spell mean slippy .. but apart from random inclusion in theory test .. We do not hammer home hard enough the other problems drivers, bikers und cyclists alike should look out for .. und it lead to tragedies like this one.
Yes, education is required. My eldest is learning at present and we have numerous conversations in the car (have had for several years, actually, but intensifying now) related to my driving, hazard awareness, etc, etc. Even a good driving instructor will not have the time to cover every nuance, nor be out in enough different circumstances to see every condition. So the more I can help her the better, I think. We have of course discussed the "wet after dry" relating to oil rising to the surface. Today we discussed keeping the brake lights on when stopped, until the next car stops behind and then she can put the handbrake on. Apparently this is not how it's done for the test -- stop and go straight to handbrake. Why?!?!
If we're talking here about a slippery corner just after a hill, then road engineering would seem to be the solution. Lowering the speed limit for the whole road will simply cause frustration without explaining the reason for the reduced limit. This is so often the case. It would be much better to put a sign up saying "bend slippery when wet" and then let the driver take responsibility.
The report I read suggested to me that the partner, though with a full licence, would probably not have been qualified long enough or be old enough to have been supervising - but I may have got that wrong.
As the lad was local this may be yet another example of local knowledge being unhelpful, to the inexperienced or experienced, because it gives people less reason to consider their responses carefully. The 'familiarity breeds contempt' saying is a somewhat harsher way o putting it.
No doubt IaHa and colleagues will be able to work out what happened but from the description of the road and contemplating the number of people in the vehicle, presumably mostly in the rear, if I were driving I would be considering the possibility that the front might 'go light' at that point and that such an effect would be very undesirable on a greasy wet road. But then I have enough similar experiences, fortunately safely negotiated, to have learned from. I don't recall that being the case when I was learning.
Of course the real causes may be totally unconnected with the rain, the road surface or the young lad driving. Maybe not even speed related in any way. Whether the proposed treatments for the road will be effective will only become clear over time.
As the lad was local this may be yet another example of local knowledge being unhelpful, to the inexperienced or experienced, because it gives people less reason to consider their responses carefully. The 'familiarity breeds contempt' saying is a somewhat harsher way o putting it.
No doubt IaHa and colleagues will be able to work out what happened but from the description of the road and contemplating the number of people in the vehicle, presumably mostly in the rear, if I were driving I would be considering the possibility that the front might 'go light' at that point and that such an effect would be very undesirable on a greasy wet road. But then I have enough similar experiences, fortunately safely negotiated, to have learned from. I don't recall that being the case when I was learning.
Of course the real causes may be totally unconnected with the rain, the road surface or the young lad driving. Maybe not even speed related in any way. Whether the proposed treatments for the road will be effective will only become clear over time.
I said in another thread that came out immediately after the accident that I guessed this would be an excuse for a speed camera. ...and there are already people saying that speed-activated signs / lowered speed limit are the answer. 
Sometimes accidents just happen and we must get away from the overwhelming desire to kneejerk ourselves into "doing something". The government are bad enough with their media-inspired laws and it seems road designers are too.
A grippier road surface and intelligent placing of "deceptive bend" signs is probably as good as can be done, not littering the road with signs otherwise people will not take any notice of them as they are likely to be seem as inapplicable, like speed limits which are too low.
Sometimes accidents just happen and we must get away from the overwhelming desire to kneejerk ourselves into "doing something". The government are bad enough with their media-inspired laws and it seems road designers are too.
A grippier road surface and intelligent placing of "deceptive bend" signs is probably as good as can be done, not littering the road with signs otherwise people will not take any notice of them as they are likely to be seem as inapplicable, like speed limits which are too low.
I live fairly close to the accident scene and used the section of road where the accident happened the day before.
The section of road where this accident happened has become notorius in recent years for casualty accidents; not only does the road have a bend that is 'severe' in relation to the road immediately preceding it, but also passes through a village at NSL with a T-Junction thrown in for good measure.
If the Escort driver had been driving away from Penrith, towards Carlisle, he'd have just driven along a 1/2 mile, totally straight section of road that's single carraigeway, yet about double the width of a normal A road. The only markings are standard centre linings. I can certainly imagine that a learning driver would face the illusion that they were driving more slowly than they actually were, once they arrived at the bends, it'd be almost too late.
It's a very, very sad incident, a friend of mine was the godmother of one of the children killed. This is certainly one instance where I'd advocate a lower speed limit.
The section of road where this accident happened has become notorius in recent years for casualty accidents; not only does the road have a bend that is 'severe' in relation to the road immediately preceding it, but also passes through a village at NSL with a T-Junction thrown in for good measure.
If the Escort driver had been driving away from Penrith, towards Carlisle, he'd have just driven along a 1/2 mile, totally straight section of road that's single carraigeway, yet about double the width of a normal A road. The only markings are standard centre linings. I can certainly imagine that a learning driver would face the illusion that they were driving more slowly than they actually were, once they arrived at the bends, it'd be almost too late.
It's a very, very sad incident, a friend of mine was the godmother of one of the children killed. This is certainly one instance where I'd advocate a lower speed limit.
Peter Ward said:
[...] Today we discussed keeping the brake lights on when stopped, until the next car stops behind and then she can put the handbrake on. Apparently this is not how it's done for the test -- stop and go straight to handbrake. Why?!?![...]
Consider the situation where the car behind doesn't stop. You've a much better chance of not going anywhere if your handbrake is on (impacts can dislodge your foot from the footbrake). The sequence we teach associates is "stop, handbrake, neutral". Nothing there about taking your foot off the footbrake if you think keeping the lights on would be an advantage.
deeps said:
That and teaching drivers how their vehicles react on a slippery surface, newly qualified drivers don't have a clue unfortunately.
Here I agree. After the first ' loss of grip incident' many of my friends used deserted public car parks and other places to explore how their vehicles react on a slippery surface. Do that nowadays and its a FPN or Section 59 or worse.
Is some form of road engineering a solution here ? with the huge proliferation of inappropriate speed limits is anyone going to take it seriously here ?
Major Bloodnok said:
Peter Ward said:
[...] Today we discussed keeping the brake lights on when stopped, until the next car stops behind and then she can put the handbrake on. Apparently this is not how it's done for the test -- stop and go straight to handbrake. Why?!?![...]
Consider the situation where the car behind doesn't stop. You've a much better chance of not going anywhere if your handbrake is on (impacts can dislodge your foot from the footbrake). The sequence we teach associates is "stop, handbrake, neutral". Nothing there about taking your foot off the footbrake if you think keeping the lights on would be an advantage.
I'd agree with handbrake, neutral and then tapping the brake if someone is approaching to make sure they realise you've stopped. I've done that before. Sitting on your footbrake for an extended period I'd say no for the reasons above about foot jumping off brake in a rear-ender, and because I hate sitting looking into someones super bright high level brake light cos they don't use their handbrake.
Similarly when you're at the back of a tail-back/queue on an A-road or motorway and a car is approaching rapidly behind, give them a couple of flashes of the hazard lights.
cj_eds said:
Sitting on your footbrake for an extended period I'd say no for the reasons above about foot jumping off brake in a rear-ender, and because I hate sitting looking into someones super bright high level brake light cos they don't use their handbrake.
I seem to remember reading somewhere that braking from a decent speed then sitting with your foot on the brake pedal is one of the reasons why disc warp, think about it you brake from speed your discs get hot then instead of the pressure being distributed over the entire dics it is concentrated on one spot.
Would this happen?
cj_eds said:
Major Bloodnok said:
Peter Ward said:
[...] Today we discussed keeping the brake lights on when stopped, until the next car stops behind and then she can put the handbrake on. Apparently this is not how it's done for the test -- stop and go straight to handbrake. Why?!?![...]
Consider the situation where the car behind doesn't stop. You've a much better chance of not going anywhere if your handbrake is on (impacts can dislodge your foot from the footbrake). The sequence we teach associates is "stop, handbrake, neutral". Nothing there about taking your foot off the footbrake if you think keeping the lights on would be an advantage.
I'd agree with handbrake, neutral and then tapping the brake if someone is approaching to make sure they realise you've stopped. I've done that before. Sitting on your footbrake for an extended period I'd say no for the reasons above about foot jumping off brake in a rear-ender, and because I hate sitting looking into someones super bright high level brake light cos they don't use their handbrake.
Similarly when you're at the back of a tail-back/queue on an A-road or motorway and a car is approaching rapidly behind, give them a couple of flashes of the hazard lights.
Sorry, should have been clearer. I wasn't advocating keeping the footbrake on, just if someone was coming up behind you as you stopped, you might want to keep it on until you were sure that they'd realised you'd stopped and weren't preparing to go again. Or, as you say, if it's clear behind initially, but someone appears whilst you're still there at the back of the queue, you might want to touch the pedal, just to give them the extra indication that you're not about to move. I quite agree about taking your foot off the brake once they have stopped behind you.
slowly slowly said:
I seem to remember reading somewhere that braking from a decent speed then sitting with your foot on the brake pedal is one of the reasons why disc warp, think about it you brake from speed your discs get hot then instead of the pressure being distributed over the entire dics it is concentrated on one spot.
Would this happen?
No it wouldn't. The pads will still be touching the discs whether you release the foot pedal or not, so heat dissipation wont be greater by releasing the pedal at stand still and the discs will be unaffected.
The best way to warp your discs is hard braking form say 150 to 50, several times in succession, untill the discs become so hot to be noticably fading.
deeps said:
No it wouldn't. The pads will still be touching the discs whether you release the foot pedal or not, so heat dissipation wont be greater by releasing the pedal at stand still and the discs will be unaffected.
Don`t understand what you mean, if you take your foot off the brake pedal the car rolls so the pads can`t be touching the discs, the way i understand it is the disc is hot from braking and the pad is pressing against the hot disc in one place, so get off the pedal when you have stopped and there s no unnecessary pressure in one spot.
ignoring the obvious personal tragedy for a bit...(tens of thousands of children died from starvation and easily preventable disease that day too - kinda puts it in perspective!)
another tricky fun bit of road bites the dust. lower the limit. dumb down drivers further. pander to the lowest common denominator. again. if its so tricky for idiots to get round why not try putting down high grip tarmac first ? was this even considered?
another tricky fun bit of road bites the dust. lower the limit. dumb down drivers further. pander to the lowest common denominator. again. if its so tricky for idiots to get round why not try putting down high grip tarmac first ? was this even considered?
slowly slowly said:
deeps said:
No it wouldn't. The pads will still be touching the discs whether you release the foot pedal or not, so heat dissipation wont be greater by releasing the pedal at stand still and the discs will be unaffected.
Don`t understand what you mean, if you take your foot off the brake pedal the car rolls so the pads can`t be touching the discs, the way i understand it is the disc is hot from braking and the pad is pressing against the hot disc in one place, so get off the pedal when you have stopped and there s no unnecessary pressure in one spot.
The pistons in the caliper don't retract when you release the pedal at stand still, the pads are always touching the discs but with no pressure behind them. Most discs these days are vented (double discs) and heat dissipates that way. I understand your thinking, but pressure on the disc is irrelevant.
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