N Wales 4 cyclist death crash. Driver to be charged.
Discussion
Heebeegeetee said:
Thing is, if ice was to blame, how come there weren't a small collection of crashed cars at that bend? I'd be surprised if other cars hadn't already passed that corner beforehand without a problem.
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As far as I could gather from the report there were other crashes that had been cleared. Maybe people slid gently off into a ditch and just needed towing out. This guy just did it as some cyclists were passing.
And note he's being prosecuted for the tyre defects not causing death by dangerous etc.
Heebeegeetee said:
Thing is, if ice was to blame, how come there weren't a small collection of crashed cars at that bend? I'd be surprised if other cars hadn't already passed that corner beforehand without a problem.
Ice is funny stuff of course, but its rare that you don't know its there. As others have said, the frozen verges are a bit of a giveaway.
Mind you, there but for the grace of god go I. If I'd killed 5 people with a car on defective tyres though, I'd expect to be prosecuted.
Ice is funny stuff of course, but its rare that you don't know its there. As others have said, the frozen verges are a bit of a giveaway.
Mind you, there but for the grace of god go I. If I'd killed 5 people with a car on defective tyres though, I'd expect to be prosecuted.
The road was icy as related by one of the cyclists who held back to help his pal after he had slipped off at an earlier roundabout.
For the record: 4 dead 8 injured.
safespeed said:
vonhosen said:
safespeed said:
I have a feeling that the 'defects' will have been applied after or during the crash, perhaps as the vehicle was uplifted or stored, something like that. I have a feeling that the cops are clutching at straws.
What was defective about the tyres then as you seem to know so much about it ?
Or is it just an unsubstantiated "feeling" ?
More or less entirely unsubstantiated. Otherwise I would not have used the words: "I have a feeling."
That's that door closed then !
vonhosen said:
For me 3 defective tyres on a vehicle is always in the public interest.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 23 June 17:11
?
I wouldn't have said so.
However, clowning mode aside, if there truly were three defective tyres on that car I don't see that one could reasonably expect this to go unpunished, but to what extent did the tyre condition contribute to the tragic crash? Perhaps the condition of the tyres made no real difference to the outcome, given the nature of the road surface.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
TripleS said:
vonhosen said:
For me 3 defective tyres on a vehicle is always in the public interest.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 23 June 17:11
?
I wouldn't have said so.
However, clowning mode aside, if there truly were three defective tyres on that car I don't see that one could reasonably expect this to go unpunished, but to what extent did the tyre condition contribute to the tragic crash? Perhaps the condition of the tyres made no real difference to the outcome, given the nature of the road surface.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I think this is the exact point. 3 defective tyres on a car never gets into the paper. Deaths do. The police would only release this to the press is they *had something to say*...
TripleS said:
vonhosen said:
For me 3 defective tyres on a vehicle is always in the public interest.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 23 June 17:11
?
I wouldn't have said so.
However, clowning mode aside, if there truly were three defective tyres on that car I don't see that one could reasonably expect this to go unpunished, but to what extent did the tyre condition contribute to the tragic crash? Perhaps the condition of the tyres made no real difference to the outcome, given the nature of the road surface.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
Do we know if the investigation into the collision has concluded that the tyres were a large factor in that or not ?
What we do know is the driver has been prosecuted for the defective tyres & as you said, I'd not expect three defective tyres to go unpunished whether it were a large contributory factor or not.
justinp1 said:
TripleS said:
vonhosen said:
For me 3 defective tyres on a vehicle is always in the public interest.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 23 June 17:11
?
I wouldn't have said so.
However, clowning mode aside, if there truly were three defective tyres on that car I don't see that one could reasonably expect this to go unpunished, but to what extent did the tyre condition contribute to the tragic crash? Perhaps the condition of the tyres made no real difference to the outcome, given the nature of the road surface.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I think this is the exact point. 3 defective tyres on a car never gets into the paper. Deaths do. The police would only release this to the press is they *had something to say*...
Are you having a laugh, the press always want to know "what happened" or "what's happening ?"
vonhosen said:
vonhosen
For me 3 defective tyres on a vehicle is always in the public interest.
For me 3 defective tyres on a vehicle is always in the public interest.
Your usual instinct to totally follow the letter of the law VH shows again. Tyre technology is a complex matter and legislative definitions for marginal technical criteria are particularly blunt and ofetn wholly inappropraite as is usually the case.
Neither you nor I knw in what way these tyres are alleged to be defective.
And my first ever points gained a long time ago were for a tyre that was marginally defective, had almost certainly not been defective 240 miles earlier when I commenced the journey and were reported by some officer, disappointed to stop someone who had not been drinking at 03:00. It took him and his zealous colleague 20 minutes to find something to nick me for and they had to roll the car forward to find a single spot where tread just fell below the regulations.
Richard C said:
vonhosen said:
vonhosen
For me 3 defective tyres on a vehicle is always in the public interest.
For me 3 defective tyres on a vehicle is always in the public interest.
Your usual instinct to totally follow the letter of the law VH shows again. Tyre technology is a complex matter and legislative definitions for marginal technical criteria are particularly blunt and ofetn wholly inappropraite as is usually the case.
Neither you nor I knw in what way these tyres are alleged to be defective.
And my first ever points gained a long time ago were for a tyre that was marginally defective, had almost certainly not been defective 240 miles earlier when I commenced the journey and were reported by some officer, disappointed to stop someone who had not been drinking at 03:00. It took him and his zealous colleague 20 minutes to find something to nick me for and they had to roll the car forward to find a single spot where tread just fell below the regulations.
If it was prosecuting to the letter of the law I'd have been saying prosecute for 1 defective tyre offering no VDRS. I think it wholely appropriate to prosecute when someone has 3 defective.
For the first time in my life I agree with VH!
The only reason people are concerned is a fear that it may be a case of the police trying to pass the buck/create a scapegoat.
I suspect that the press have been keeping on top of it and looking out for any charges, probably aided by tip-offs from interested parties.
I'm not denying that the suspicisions on this thread may be well-founded, but I don't think there's much to support that them either.
The only reason people are concerned is a fear that it may be a case of the police trying to pass the buck/create a scapegoat.
I suspect that the press have been keeping on top of it and looking out for any charges, probably aided by tip-offs from interested parties.
I'm not denying that the suspicisions on this thread may be well-founded, but I don't think there's much to support that them either.
Tafia said:
Heebeegeetee said:
Thing is, if ice was to blame, how come there weren't a small collection of crashed cars at that bend? I'd be surprised if other cars hadn't already passed that corner beforehand without a problem.
Ice is funny stuff of course, but its rare that you don't know its there. As others have said, the frozen verges are a bit of a giveaway.
Mind you, there but for the grace of god go I. If I'd killed 5 people with a car on defective tyres though, I'd expect to be prosecuted.
Ice is funny stuff of course, but its rare that you don't know its there. As others have said, the frozen verges are a bit of a giveaway.
Mind you, there but for the grace of god go I. If I'd killed 5 people with a car on defective tyres though, I'd expect to be prosecuted.
The road was icy as related by one of the cyclists who held back to help his pal after he had slipped off at an earlier roundabout.
For the record: 4 dead 8 injured.
This was black ice. There was no iced up verges to give clue. Road ist prone to microclimate of a cold patch. Per local lore.
Survivor of this crash.. the one who was not involved because he was the one supervising the youngster who fell earlier on in the ride said in his report for the best cycling mag on the shelves that the road surfcae was like an ice rink under foot. "It was sheer sheet ice und you could not see it." This interview with the rider appeared in "Cycling Weekly" - the week after it happened.
You were not there - so you do not know if the verges were icy. Photos of the aftermath did not show icy verges either.
This was one of the rare accidents und even though I have a thing about defectives since a lorry which had defective brakes und tyres killed my cousin - I do not think the defect was cause as it could have occurred with brand new tyres.
We do not know what the defects were... incorrect tyre pressure? Bulge which may have occurred in impact und forenics may not be able to prove whether bulge there before impact. If he had kerbed whilst parking und "torn" wall of tyre .. this would also render tyre "illegal or defective" - but he may not realise this ist a serious defect. as he may not do the miles or as "au fait"
Ist why I have wheels checked once per month at tyre specialist und check myself each day as do longest drive to work each day.
Tread? Well .. ist funny this was not mentioned at time ... und reports at time stated "car was in roadworthy condition" per each media report. Und ist first thing I would check if car skidded out of control und into people - killing half und injuring the rest rather seriously - if I were a BiB ..
By the way - on that morning a policeman had lost it at that point und one other car came to grief. They had requested another gritter.
They should have placed a warning triangle or even closed the road until gritted. The earlier accidents were mentioned in the tabloids und in the Cycling Weekly account from the survivor.
But he ist not facing charges for dangerous or careless - just the defective tyres .. und perhaps the defects are "sub judice" at present which ist probably why ist not mentioned
The Cycling press have been mentioning the inappropriate speed - as the Police Officer at the scene said the car wasnt speeding. I heard somewhere that the car was estimated at doing a little over 50mph which was fine for this 60mph road. However, it was too fast for the road conditions of the time. Quite plainly seeing as the car slid off the road and into the Cyclists.
Tyres defective or not is rather besides the point. But it wont make the relatives any happier will it?
Tyres defective or not is rather besides the point. But it wont make the relatives any happier will it?
vonhosen said:
justinp1 said:
TripleS said:
vonhosen said:
For me 3 defective tyres on a vehicle is always in the public interest.
Edited by vonhosen on Friday 23 June 17:11
?
I wouldn't have said so.
However, clowning mode aside, if there truly were three defective tyres on that car I don't see that one could reasonably expect this to go unpunished, but to what extent did the tyre condition contribute to the tragic crash? Perhaps the condition of the tyres made no real difference to the outcome, given the nature of the road surface.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I think this is the exact point. 3 defective tyres on a car never gets into the paper. Deaths do. The police would only release this to the press is they *had something to say*...
Are you having a laugh, the press always want to know "what happened" or "what's happening ?"
Not laughing at all! the press wernt knocking down on my door when a judge threw out the evidence of three serving police officers who constructed and corroborated statements and supposed events to try and convict me.
I think that is a little more in the publics interest than a guy who *may* have three defenctive tyres.... are we also to belive that it is a coincidence that it is the same guy who killed four people on a road on which the police admitted that they were aware of previous accidents, and rushed to the defence of the driver as he *wasnt* breaking the speed limit.
I am sorry that this smells like the deliberate and orchestrated diversion of pointing fingers to me!
vonhosen said:
safespeed said:
vonhosen said:
The driver should be prosecuted for 3 defective tyres collision or not.
If and only if the tyres were defective, of course.
Of course the tyres would have to be defective to prosecute OR are you sugeesting the Police changed 3 good tyres for 3 dodgy ones ?
BadgerBenji said:
apache said:
BadgerBenji said:
End of the day the driver was driving in an inappropriate manner for the conditions. Im sure other cars passed through that area without incident.
Roads dont kill people drivers do.
Roads dont kill people drivers do.
"I fear that the Police are trying to deflect the heat away from themselves having abandoned the scene after earlier crashes"
apparently not, it's usually a good idea to read the thread before commenting
Yes I read the previous posts.
Im sorry this is conspiracy theory, without knowing what other calls were received that the officers had to deal with you are making a massive assumption, that they fled and trying to cover up. It was a cold winters day, surely that should indicate to you as a driver that it might be slippery in places. I was in wales the day this happened, and there was still snow on the verge, the roads were clear of snow, but it still indicated to me that caution was required.
Who's to say he wasn't excercising caution, he was obeying the speed limit (which these days is all you need to do) and the he was charged with 3 defective tyres with no connection made between that and the cause of the accident. You are the one making assumptions, not I.
4 people died and 8 were injured, I hope their relatives eventually get some proper answers to this.
apache said:
BadgerBenji said:
apache said:
BadgerBenji said:
End of the day the driver was driving in an inappropriate manner for the conditions. Im sure other cars passed through that area without incident.
Roads dont kill people drivers do.
Roads dont kill people drivers do.
"I fear that the Police are trying to deflect the heat away from themselves having abandoned the scene after earlier crashes"
apparently not, it's usually a good idea to read the thread before commenting
Yes I read the previous posts.
Im sorry this is conspiracy theory, without knowing what other calls were received that the officers had to deal with you are making a massive assumption, that they fled and trying to cover up. It was a cold winters day, surely that should indicate to you as a driver that it might be slippery in places. I was in wales the day this happened, and there was still snow on the verge, the roads were clear of snow, but it still indicated to me that caution was required.
Who's to say he wasn't excercising caution, he was obeying the speed limit (which these days is all you need to do) and the he was charged with 3 defective tyres with no connection made between that and the cause of the accident. You are the one making assumptions, not I.
4 people died and 8 were injured, I hope their relatives eventually get some proper answers to this.
Obeying a speed limit is different from exercising caution. The speed limit is only the maximum speed for that road in ideal conditions, I dont call black ice ideal conditions. I was truely saddened on hearing of the cyclists death, my own bicycle road racing career was ended by being hit by a car, and suffering spinal fractures, i was lucky.
BadgerBenji said:
Obeying a speed limit is different from exercising caution. The speed limit is only the maximum speed for that road in ideal conditions, I dont call black ice ideal conditions. I was truely saddened on hearing of the cyclists death, my own bicycle road racing career was ended by being hit by a car, and suffering spinal fractures, i was lucky.
Yeah, sorry bout that, my cynicism gtes the better of me at times.
BadgerBenji said:
apache said:
BadgerBenji said:
apache said:
BadgerBenji said:
End of the day the driver was driving in an inappropriate manner for the conditions. Im sure other cars passed through that area without incident.
Roads dont kill people drivers do.
Roads dont kill people drivers do.
"I fear that the Police are trying to deflect the heat away from themselves having abandoned the scene after earlier crashes"
apparently not, it's usually a good idea to read the thread before commenting
Yes I read the previous posts.
Im sorry this is conspiracy theory, without knowing what other calls were received that the officers had to deal with you are making a massive assumption, that they fled and trying to cover up. It was a cold winters day, surely that should indicate to you as a driver that it might be slippery in places. I was in wales the day this happened, and there was still snow on the verge, the roads were clear of snow, but it still indicated to me that caution was required.
Who's to say he wasn't excercising caution, he was obeying the speed limit (which these days is all you need to do) and the he was charged with 3 defective tyres with no connection made between that and the cause of the accident. You are the one making assumptions, not I.
4 people died and 8 were injured, I hope their relatives eventually get some proper answers to this.
Obeying a speed limit is different from exercising caution. The speed limit is only the maximum speed for that road in ideal conditions, I dont call black ice ideal conditions.
Trouble with black ice - you do NOT see it. Your first realisation comes when you cannot hear the noise from normal tyre grip. Per all reports seen in press at teh time and in the aftermath - car was 10 mph below the speed limit and conditions on approach were normal until he hit the bend which appeared to be iced due to a cold patch of micro-climate.
Thus we cannot say the defective tyres were the sole cause of the accident - and they do not appear to be saying this caused it.
Now as Wildy pointed out - the defect will be sub judice so as not to predudice any other action which may follow against the chap as they investigate further into this incident. We do not know how defective or what nature of defect .. low tyre tread? Uneven wear? Tear or bulge on wall caused by hitting a kerb? In the latter - did this occur at the time of the incident? Might not be that easy to establish beyond doubt either way.
Three defects?
Well - may be sign that we ain't bad drivers - and keep all cars maintained to more or less "mint" condition - but our tyres seem to wear evenly and we usually end up replacing both fronts at the same time as they have worn in synch with each other... He may then have had even wear on two of them and the third one.. he could have had a puncture and used a spare which was low on tread for the other.
Of course - he should have been be checking tyres for pressure and tread wear and tear on a very regular basis (our P O W E R posts
) - and this family has a severe issue with those who drive cars with dodgy brakes and tyres. However, regardless of the defects - had the cyclists been there earlier - then it could have been either of the two who skidded there earlier that day - including one policeman... I think this point should be raised instead of beating the chap over the defectives. The cyclists themselves commented about this.
Incidentally - about a month after this incident - group of 30 cyclists had a pile up in Bolton which resulted in one very seriously injured and three other serious injuries and a lot of emdium-minors. This did not make the tabloids at teh time - but was in the local North West papers at the time. The cycling club is suing Bolton Council over a failure to grit the road, They claim neighbouring Chorley was resposnible for this stretch and also claim they gritted the road in question.. Again - prone to micro-climate cold spot and prone to black ice.
BadgerBenji said:
I was truely saddened on hearing of the cyclists death, my own bicycle road racing career was ended by being hit by a car, and suffering spinal fractures, i was lucky.
I am sorry to hear that. I have a soft spot for Emma Davies-Jones whose career almost ended in the same way. SHe was extremely lucky in that the motorist who stopped to help her had medical qualifications and stopped further damage by ensuring she kept still.
I am saddened each time I read of any death on the road - especially if caused by someone who is not even legally qualified or insured or even in fit state to drive. But then we lost a relative when a driver of lorry with multiple defects hit him at just 20 mph .. and I nearly lost my own Wildy wife as folks on here know when a driver was taken ill and simply ran into her car .. at - um - speed
streaky said:
vonhosen said:
safespeed said:
vonhosen said:
The driver should be prosecuted for 3 defective tyres collision or not.
If and only if the tyres were defective, of course.
Of course the tyres would have to be defective to prosecute OR are you sugeesting the Police changed 3 good tyres for 3 dodgy ones ?
You don't know what the defects with the tyres were, so how can we say whether they could be possibly be post collision or not ?
What if the tyres were all completely devoid of tread, over half the width of the tyre, for the entire circumference ? Is that going to have happened post collision ? Perhaps the smooth iced road surface scrubbed it all off & they were fine up to that point, what do you think ?.
Post collision damage is a defence open to the person accused (though I doubt if they are devoid of tread that will help). So giving in to the paranoia & speculating serves no purpose.
Enough speculation, there's plenty of factual info.
It was cold
the road had black ice at a spot where some vehicles inc a police car had already come off
the car was not speeding or driving dangerously (he wasn't charged)
a cyclist had fallen on the ice previously
black ice is difficult to see
Is it not just an accident?
It was cold
the road had black ice at a spot where some vehicles inc a police car had already come off
the car was not speeding or driving dangerously (he wasn't charged)
a cyclist had fallen on the ice previously
black ice is difficult to see
Is it not just an accident?
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