My survey: possibility of tired driving.
Discussion
Hi guys.
I’ve not been here for a while; I've spent what time I have on a different forum (no names, yet).
One of the topics that came up was regarding my experience through the 40mph M1 SPECS enforced road works a few months ago (I don't know if they are still there now). The issue was that I was feeling considerably tired towards the end of this stretch, yet I was completely alert beforehand and immediately afterwards for the next 2 hours of driving (all the way back down to Portsmouth, no breaks). I was driving the car (hire car so I don’t know the speedo error) for around 30 minutes before I encountered the roadworks, having had a 10 hour break before starting the journey. This was well past midnight with no surrounding traffic, ahead or in other lanes. There were no workmen when I passed through, evident by the lack of workmen and the floodlights for them to operate.
The question I would like to ask my fellow motorists is this:
Is driving at below 40mph (likely to be less than 35/36 for speedo tolerance and efforts towards average speed compliance), for 10 miles, in total darkness apart from the light provided from one’s own headlamps, without any surrounding traffic, on a featureless road, for a full 10 miles, not enough to induce fatigue (severe or not) for a significant amount of drivers?
I am going somewhere with this but I would like to hear your answers before I reveal.
I’ve not been here for a while; I've spent what time I have on a different forum (no names, yet).
One of the topics that came up was regarding my experience through the 40mph M1 SPECS enforced road works a few months ago (I don't know if they are still there now). The issue was that I was feeling considerably tired towards the end of this stretch, yet I was completely alert beforehand and immediately afterwards for the next 2 hours of driving (all the way back down to Portsmouth, no breaks). I was driving the car (hire car so I don’t know the speedo error) for around 30 minutes before I encountered the roadworks, having had a 10 hour break before starting the journey. This was well past midnight with no surrounding traffic, ahead or in other lanes. There were no workmen when I passed through, evident by the lack of workmen and the floodlights for them to operate.
The question I would like to ask my fellow motorists is this:
Is driving at below 40mph (likely to be less than 35/36 for speedo tolerance and efforts towards average speed compliance), for 10 miles, in total darkness apart from the light provided from one’s own headlamps, without any surrounding traffic, on a featureless road, for a full 10 miles, not enough to induce fatigue (severe or not) for a significant amount of drivers?
I am going somewhere with this but I would like to hear your answers before I reveal.
Smeggy
You've touched on something here that I'm VERY interested in.
Oxon has many limits like this, and a high ratio of cameras. I know that when I ride/drive to the limit on roads where it is artificially low, it drains my concentration. Yes, tiredness too - but more a sort of 'tuning out' from the riding/driving process. Bad enough in a car, lethal on a bike.
I noticed it most starkly after a weekend in Staffordshire where the limits on some roads are insanely low AND camera enforced. I nearly crashed three times because of loss of concentration engendered - in my view - by the ultra-low limits and the need to comply absolutely. Bear in mind that I've held a RoSPA gold (for what that's worth) for 12 years, am an IAM Senior Observer and chair my local IAM group. OK, that's no great shakes, but I suspect Mr Average will feel it all the more keenly. I'm used to complying with limits, but where they are artificially low it takes a LOT of concentration to stay legal. Note - that's 'legal', not 'safe' - the two are increasingly divorced.
You've touched on something here that I'm VERY interested in.
Oxon has many limits like this, and a high ratio of cameras. I know that when I ride/drive to the limit on roads where it is artificially low, it drains my concentration. Yes, tiredness too - but more a sort of 'tuning out' from the riding/driving process. Bad enough in a car, lethal on a bike.
I noticed it most starkly after a weekend in Staffordshire where the limits on some roads are insanely low AND camera enforced. I nearly crashed three times because of loss of concentration engendered - in my view - by the ultra-low limits and the need to comply absolutely. Bear in mind that I've held a RoSPA gold (for what that's worth) for 12 years, am an IAM Senior Observer and chair my local IAM group. OK, that's no great shakes, but I suspect Mr Average will feel it all the more keenly. I'm used to complying with limits, but where they are artificially low it takes a LOT of concentration to stay legal. Note - that's 'legal', not 'safe' - the two are increasingly divorced.
I certainly have found that driving within the speedlimit on a motorway is remarkably boring and therefore tiring, and have posted to that effect here before.
I maintain that cars are a lot easier to drive these days, more comfortable, warm etc and therefore one needs the speed as a reason to stay alert. Otherwise its very easy to drift into auto-pilot, and potentially sleep!
I maintain that cars are a lot easier to drive these days, more comfortable, warm etc and therefore one needs the speed as a reason to stay alert. Otherwise its very easy to drift into auto-pilot, and potentially sleep!
smeggy said:
Thanks for the replies so far.
I can see there is broad agreement that the effect does exist, but I need a direct answer to specifics of the question.
I am going somewhere with this!
I can see there is broad agreement that the effect does exist, but I need a direct answer to specifics of the question.
I am going somewhere with this!
On a road that was designed to carry a car at near its maximum speed, to travel at one-quarter or less of a modern car's maximum speed, with no external stimulation, is very soporific.
This is the body's natural response to a lack of stimulation. We can pontificate all we want about one's responsibilities behind the wheel, but the unassailable fact is that, in the conditions described, it is more difficult to stay continuously alert than it ought to be.
smeggy said:
Thanks for the replies so far.
I can see there is broad agreement that the effect does exist, but I need a direct answer to specifics of the question.
I am going somewhere with this!
I can see there is broad agreement that the effect does exist, but I need a direct answer to specifics of the question.
I am going somewhere with this!
Hi smeggy.
I say yes. I have been in that situation before after driving for over an hour on the motorway. It is not only tiresome but when the eyes are allowed to relax self-hypnosis is also a possibility too!
Hi Smeggy,
I've been following your efforts on the other forum and commend your perseverance.
I have driven the SPECS section of the M1 many times before and agree that it is one of the worst driving experiences that I have encountered, and not only because the lack of stimuli and resluting fatigue setting in.
I've been following your efforts on the other forum and commend your perseverance.
I have driven the SPECS section of the M1 many times before and agree that it is one of the worst driving experiences that I have encountered, and not only because the lack of stimuli and resluting fatigue setting in.
smeggy said:
The question I would like to ask my fellow motorists is this:
Is driving at below 40mph (likely to be less than 35/36 for speedo tolerance and efforts towards average speed compliance), for 10 miles, in total darkness apart from the light provided from one’s own headlamps, without any surrounding traffic, on a featureless road, for a full 10 miles, not enough to induce fatigue (severe or not) for a significant amount of drivers?
As a general rule for me, the faster I travel the more alert I become, and likewise the opposite can be true, slower = less alert, but it does depend on the road type.
If the road dictated that 40 was sufficient ie twisty bumpy minor road with hazards, then I wouldn't be affected with boredom and fatigue.
But if the road were a featureless motorway, then yes travelling at 40 would induce fatigue. The width and smoothness of the road can only encourage relaxation compared to a bumpy narrow road.
On a long journey, even doing a constant 70 in the conditions you describe, featureless, little traffic, darkness, will encourage relaxation and certainly have a mesmerising effect, IMO. When the speed is reduced to 40 I have no doubt that will lead to drowsiness, if the 40 is for a prolonged length of time.
I have no material evidence to back that up, other than I travel more than 60k miles per year and experience many road environments, and the most fatigue inducing IMO are as you describe above. When I drive through such like, my actions are to lower the windows, light a ciggy, and tune into a radio station.
Conversely, I never have a drowsiness problem when choosing my own alert speed, which would be around 100 in those conditions (general motorway, not roadworks obviously). Don't know if that's what you want to hear, but that's how it is for me
. You have this all wrong! You need to stay exceptionally alert to avoid creeping even one mile per hour over the posted limit! Duh! Otherwise there is substantial risk that death will result. We know this because BRAKE et al keep telling us so. It is a well-known fact that you are more likely to lose concentration when travelling above the posted limit - regardless of what that is - and that an accident will inevitably result occasioning the tragic loss of life.
- Streaky
- Streaky
streaky said:
You have this all wrong! You need to stay exceptionally alert to avoid creeping even one mile per hour over the posted limit! Duh! Otherwise there is substantial risk that death will result. We know this because BRAKE et al keep telling us so. It is a well-known fact that you are more likely to lose concentration when travelling above the posted limit - regardless of what that is - and that an accident will inevitably result occasioning the tragic loss of life.
AND God will kill a kitten.
spokey said:
streaky said:
You have this all wrong! You need to stay exceptionally alert to avoid creeping even one mile per hour over the posted limit! Duh! Otherwise there is substantial risk that death will result. We know this because BRAKE et al keep telling us so. It is a well-known fact that you are more likely to lose concentration when travelling above the posted limit - regardless of what that is - and that an accident will inevitably result occasioning the tragic loss of life.
AND God will kill a kitten.
Well, if that's what you're doing whilst driving, no wonder you're all over the shop.
spokey said:
streaky said:
You have this all wrong! You need to stay exceptionally alert to avoid creeping even one mile per hour over the posted limit! Duh! Otherwise there is substantial risk that death will result. We know this because BRAKE et al keep telling us so. It is a well-known fact that you are more likely to lose concentration when travelling above the posted limit - regardless of what that is - and that an accident will inevitably result occasioning the tragic loss of life.
AND God will kill a kitten.
Look I told you .. they all fine.. honest! Und driving me more crackers than normal
Ist a little myth Aunty Mary dreamed up... next she will tell you Hans von Trappa und not St Nick will visit over .0000000001 over limit
Ja smeggy...
Both Mad Doc und self drove through those SPECS on way to und from continent in early December. Pitch black.. und longest time through the 5 in total.
The only thing which kept us concentrating was the blip from the useful doo-dah telling us where they were. But we both found we needed to pull in at next services for a reviving cup of coffee (und I keep a flask in car - frehsly made before each journey und if you fill flask with boiling water und let it stand for at least half hour .. to hour before filling with the warm drink.. it keep hot for longer)
Both Mad Doc und self drove through those SPECS on way to und from continent in early December. Pitch black.. und longest time through the 5 in total.
The only thing which kept us concentrating was the blip from the useful doo-dah telling us where they were. But we both found we needed to pull in at next services for a reviving cup of coffee (und I keep a flask in car - frehsly made before each journey und if you fill flask with boiling water und let it stand for at least half hour .. to hour before filling with the warm drink.. it keep hot for longer
) 
flemke said:
On a road that was designed to carry a car at near its maximum speed, to travel at one-quarter or less of a modern car's maximum speed, with no external stimulation, is very soporific.
This is the body's natural response to a lack of stimulation. We can pontificate all we want about one's responsibilities behind the wheel, but the unassailable fact is that, in the conditions described, it is more difficult to stay continuously alert than it ought to be.
As you say, this is the natural result of suppressing natural instincts and following an artificial threshold, close to something people do to actually go to sleep: the SCPs know this - human nature overriding spurious nonsense is what they make their money on, it is the SCPs core business model. This is the body's natural response to a lack of stimulation. We can pontificate all we want about one's responsibilities behind the wheel, but the unassailable fact is that, in the conditions described, it is more difficult to stay continuously alert than it ought to be.
It's a shame because we all think drink driving is idiotic right? Cue all the righteous indignation should a fellow PH'er try it.
Sleepiness is more dangerous that being drunk, there have been a number of studies done that back this up.
The SCP is addicted to the money now, safety continues to come a very poor second.
One way to spice up SPECS stretches is to practice changing lanes each time you go past a camera to invalidate the type approval and therefore make them safe. You have to keep eyes peeled. If you get more bored, just execute an odd numbered series of lane changes - well away from the next camera of course!! You really want a good snap change just level with the pole, getting a little understeer makes it better but avoid the spin - a danger for young players!
Ja und the other odd thing we noted in ourselves... we found it more tiring than the traffic jam crawl as well. I think because perhaps we watch the folk behind .. und look to zip merge or allow a lane change from the others in the queuing lanes... Und you can afford a little time to listen to radio in these jams.. whereas in SPECS scenario.. you are more glued to speedo und speed in case you creep up in this duration.
My sister-in-law also noted this effect on her on M56 SPECS last summer.
Ja.. you can spice it up by changing lane every so often as well.
My sister-in-law also noted this effect on her on M56 SPECS last summer.
Ja.. you can spice it up by changing lane every so often as well.
I don't think its tiring unless you're already severely mentally and physically fatigued - in which case you shouldn't be driving. I think you need to study the differences between fatigue, sensory deprivation, mental stimulation, psychology etc. I'm sure theres a lot of stuff out there, I certainly don't know anything about the subject.
I don't see how lack of anything interesting to see or do can induce fatigue. The fatigue is already there if you're tired. I think what you're talking about is loss of concentration - I don't think that that has anything to do with general tiredness. I think the two are very different things, linked only by the human brain's control of sleep functions and pain control. You can be 'tired' of working on a 10 page essay, but still be physically strong and alert. You can be 'tired' after a 2 hour gym workout, but still be mentally aware with normal levels of concentration.
In my experience, the situation you describe is just boring. Certainly my attention wanders away from the road to more important things like 'what colour wrapper does a Cadbury's Twirl have?', and 'Would I save time washing up if I bought some sporks?'. I put the cruise control on, and pick my nose.
IMO, once the workers have finished, they should fold over those roadsigns from 40mph to something more sensible for the night. I also think it would be a good idea to put temporary warning signs on the roadside, a mile or two before the last services or exit, warning of the roadworks and telling people who may be too tired to have a break.
I don't see how lack of anything interesting to see or do can induce fatigue. The fatigue is already there if you're tired. I think what you're talking about is loss of concentration - I don't think that that has anything to do with general tiredness. I think the two are very different things, linked only by the human brain's control of sleep functions and pain control. You can be 'tired' of working on a 10 page essay, but still be physically strong and alert. You can be 'tired' after a 2 hour gym workout, but still be mentally aware with normal levels of concentration.
In my experience, the situation you describe is just boring. Certainly my attention wanders away from the road to more important things like 'what colour wrapper does a Cadbury's Twirl have?', and 'Would I save time washing up if I bought some sporks?'. I put the cruise control on, and pick my nose.
IMO, once the workers have finished, they should fold over those roadsigns from 40mph to something more sensible for the night. I also think it would be a good idea to put temporary warning signs on the roadside, a mile or two before the last services or exit, warning of the roadworks and telling people who may be too tired to have a break.
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