My survey: possibility of tired driving.
Discussion
Yes, I think a low limit enforced can be bad if you are starting to feel tired. However I think there is a bigger problem caused by people having to concentrate too hard on keeping to the limit at any time of the day. This is to the detriment of things like keeping a safe distance from other vehicles and lane discipline - you see that every day.
I do find cruise comes in useful where the speed limit is too low and enforced - removes the anxiety aspect and allows you to keep eyes on road all the time, though doesn't do much to alleviate the tiresome aspects of driving in these conditions. How I wish they'd limit the length of the roadworks to sections of a couple of miles. Complete one section, move onto the next until the job is done.
A long drive at 70 on a motorway is not very stimulating in clear free-flowing conditions, either. I wonder how many crashes on scammed sections of motorway are caused by driver tiredness through driving to the limit at night. I know of one on the M6 in Cumbria where a vehicle left the road a couple of years ago. They have been known to brag about deploying vans at night!
I do find cruise comes in useful where the speed limit is too low and enforced - removes the anxiety aspect and allows you to keep eyes on road all the time, though doesn't do much to alleviate the tiresome aspects of driving in these conditions. How I wish they'd limit the length of the roadworks to sections of a couple of miles. Complete one section, move onto the next until the job is done.
A long drive at 70 on a motorway is not very stimulating in clear free-flowing conditions, either. I wonder how many crashes on scammed sections of motorway are caused by driver tiredness through driving to the limit at night. I know of one on the M6 in Cumbria where a vehicle left the road a couple of years ago. They have been known to brag about deploying vans at night!
My take on this is as follows.
Not a fan of the theory that the way to keep awake is give it the berries, what that says to me is you are switching off at lower speeds, which then means that eventually you will put your vehicle into a place where your eyes and brain haven't been first.
To me the most significant factor in all this is traffic density.
If you enter a stretch of road works limited to 40 mph and traffic level is light to middling it really is no problem to me to maintain a legal speed, frustrating yes but not tiring.
If the traffic density is high, so that there are lots of vehicles travelling close together at very similar speeds then work load increases, and it is far more difficult to keep adequate space around the vehicle and have a planned escape route. That is more tiring, no doubt in my mind.
Then factor in the question of the road is clearly unlit, and you are not able to use main beam for some reason. That would increase workload and eye strain in the quiet times because one would be peering ahead looking for displaced roadworks furniture. In the busy time less of a problem as hopefully the plan would be to sit at the appropriate distance behind another vehicle and he would clear the way* so to speak.
Not sure if that answers the question.
FiF
*A useful technique high speed at night again when main beam is not possible, use a pathfinder and mirror their lane occupation when sensible. If they bounce two feet up in the air, chances are they've run over something.
Not a fan of the theory that the way to keep awake is give it the berries, what that says to me is you are switching off at lower speeds, which then means that eventually you will put your vehicle into a place where your eyes and brain haven't been first.
To me the most significant factor in all this is traffic density.
If you enter a stretch of road works limited to 40 mph and traffic level is light to middling it really is no problem to me to maintain a legal speed, frustrating yes but not tiring.
If the traffic density is high, so that there are lots of vehicles travelling close together at very similar speeds then work load increases, and it is far more difficult to keep adequate space around the vehicle and have a planned escape route. That is more tiring, no doubt in my mind.
Then factor in the question of the road is clearly unlit, and you are not able to use main beam for some reason. That would increase workload and eye strain in the quiet times because one would be peering ahead looking for displaced roadworks furniture. In the busy time less of a problem as hopefully the plan would be to sit at the appropriate distance behind another vehicle and he would clear the way* so to speak.
Not sure if that answers the question.
FiF
*A useful technique high speed at night again when main beam is not possible, use a pathfinder and mirror their lane occupation when sensible. If they bounce two feet up in the air, chances are they've run over something.
Parrot of Doom said:
I don't think its tiring unless you're already severely mentally and physically fatigued - in which case you shouldn't be driving.
Liebchen..
I would also suggest if you sense you are feeling really poorly as well. Not that I am biased or anything.. 
Parrot of Doom said:
I think you need to study the differences between fatigue, sensory deprivation, mental stimulation, psychology etc. I'm sure theres a lot of stuff out there, I certainly don't know anything about the subject.
I don't see how lack of anything interesting to see or do can induce fatigue. The fatigue is already there if you're tired. I think what you're talking about is loss of concentration - I don't think that that has anything to do with general tiredness. I think the two are very different things, linked only by the human brain's control of sleep functions and pain control. You can be 'tired' of working on a 10 page essay, but still be physically strong and alert. You can be 'tired' after a 2 hour gym workout, but still be mentally aware with normal levels of concentration.
Ist the adrenalin charge along with a whole host of biochemical chain reactions which stimulate brain to continue the routine business after work out. Muscle are probably screaming for a relax ..which ist not "tired" either. Brain working on essay .. und still chuntering on the topic.. ist because brain muscle has not relaxed into switch off due to adrenalin und other bio-chemical chain reactions which pull together to keep that mind focussed on its task. When it finally relaxes .. it recharge by sleeping.
That ist of course in term most basic und summed up into one paragraph. There are lots of weighty tomes on topic
in torturous language Parrot of Doom said:
In my experience, the situation you describe is just boring. Certainly my attention wanders away from the road to more important things like 'what colour wrapper does a Cadbury's Twirl have?', and 'Would I save time washing up if I bought some sporks?'. I put the cruise control on, and pick my nose.
Ja.. I think perhaps the boredom of very straight road at low speed in dark seem never ending.
But I think in some cases .. there ist the concentration of actively keeping rigidly to that speed when "not used to being monitored that closely for such a long stretch" can cause a tension which can make some feel a bit drained The Gatsos on the M60 during the widening .. we think from reports und own experience were just as effective from the Altrincham to almost Stockport duration.. but the SPECS on the resurface seemed to have a different effect on same drivers .. Mad Doc's family down there. They reported that they found that although they held it steady to 40 mph with the Gatso with no fatigue or fixation on speedo .. they all reported that they thought their behaviour was different with the SPECS in that they found they were concentrating just that bit more on keeping it steady without flux und did not like the expererience. I think this ist normal overall human reaction und think it should actually be researched
in greater depth... maybe by the psychology schools. We need to know how far human behaviour in car ist influenced by Gatso und SPECS und so far no one on any one side has actually researched this definitively Prof Rose Baker has provided a peer reviewed research paper back in 2004 over RTTM und Lotto aspect of the ping.. und her work echoes Paul's findings to date in many respects. If you like.. her paper ist the peer reviewed model.. und it appears to be in similar finding to Paulie's work
Ist worth mentioning this little factor Parrot of Doom said:
IMO, once the workers have finished, they should fold over those roadsigns from 40mph to something more sensible for the night. I also think it would be a good idea to put temporary warning signs on the roadside, a mile or two before the last services or exit, warning of the roadworks and telling people who may be too tired to have a break.
I think so too. Und also .. I once drove along M1 which warned me of scams .. und 50mph limit.. but the whilst the cones were removed und the SPECS nowhere in evidence.. the 50 mph limit lolly was still there. A phone call told me this work ceased a week ago .. und I think the lolly removed after the Wild miaows down telephone
Now Muss Weg! .. Ist Party Time .. und I must put on nice dress.. don the high heels... und the lacy topped stockings ... und the war paint .. und go out partying:
Prosit! Neujahr!
I think driving anywhere can make you tired, it is taking a break that is important. I can remember getting home from nightshifts and falling asleep in the car on the drive, being too tired to get out! 9 hours without a break does that to you. I have also fallen asleep at red traffic lights in similar circumstances after a night shift. This was nothing to do with constant speeds or motorways, just being run from pillar to post for 9 hours.
Mind you apparently we are lazy!
Mind you apparently we are lazy!
I've driven for thousands of miles on continental Europe, Britain and America.......with never a problem like this...until!
The Euro-tunnel opened and the car ferries decided to cut their services and concentrate on the Dover- Calais route. Great if you lived in the south, but useless for anyone north of Watford gap services...
Blame me if you like but!...I once remember (vaguely) driving up an empty M40 half asleep with a caravan in tow with a pain traversing from my back to my chest....after driving from mid-germany to Calais, spending 4 hrs without sleep (I couldn't) boarding the ferry at 11.00pm (still no sleep) and driving from Dover to the NW...
A lorry driver had to beep his horn to wake me up because I was wandering and slowing down...
and the real cause?.......the cancelation of the Oostende and Zeebrugge services that I always took before. They gave me at least: 4 hrs sleep!...
I just wonder how many early morning motorway accidents are caused in this way?..
The Euro-tunnel opened and the car ferries decided to cut their services and concentrate on the Dover- Calais route. Great if you lived in the south, but useless for anyone north of Watford gap services...
Blame me if you like but!...I once remember (vaguely) driving up an empty M40 half asleep with a caravan in tow with a pain traversing from my back to my chest....after driving from mid-germany to Calais, spending 4 hrs without sleep (I couldn't) boarding the ferry at 11.00pm (still no sleep) and driving from Dover to the NW...
A lorry driver had to beep his horn to wake me up because I was wandering and slowing down...
and the real cause?.......the cancelation of the Oostende and Zeebrugge services that I always took before. They gave me at least: 4 hrs sleep!...
I just wonder how many early morning motorway accidents are caused in this way?..
I did an experiment on my last trip darn sarf (Teesside to Leicester via A19/A1M/M18/M1 J22).
On the outbound leg (Xmas day morning) I used cruise control where appropriate to stay within the posted limit at all times. I didn't pass much traffic. To say that I was bored shitless is an understatement. I was also quite mentally tired when I arrived at my destination.
On the return leg (Boxing day afternoon), I drove at speeds I was comfortable with, and made progress whilst passing other drivers. I also made a conscious decision to return to lane 1 as soon as possible even if, by staying out for another minute or so, I could have avoided an overtake.
I arrived home much fresher. Of course, it should be pointed out that this was an artificial situation because on the days in question, there were almost no wagons at all on the road, so L1 was available to drivers doing more than 56MPH, which in the normal run of play it is not.
Rigid speed limit compliance was hard work and made me a worse driver, because I was mentally depleted.
On the outbound leg (Xmas day morning) I used cruise control where appropriate to stay within the posted limit at all times. I didn't pass much traffic. To say that I was bored shitless is an understatement. I was also quite mentally tired when I arrived at my destination.
On the return leg (Boxing day afternoon), I drove at speeds I was comfortable with, and made progress whilst passing other drivers. I also made a conscious decision to return to lane 1 as soon as possible even if, by staying out for another minute or so, I could have avoided an overtake.
I arrived home much fresher. Of course, it should be pointed out that this was an artificial situation because on the days in question, there were almost no wagons at all on the road, so L1 was available to drivers doing more than 56MPH, which in the normal run of play it is not.
Rigid speed limit compliance was hard work and made me a worse driver, because I was mentally depleted.
No kittens died on my outbound leg. I fear that a number may have used up some of their lives on the return leg, especially on the new bit of the A1M at Holmfield Interchange.
I’m back. Happy new year to you all!
Thanks for all the replies.
I feel there is a general consensus that drivers in the stated conditions could suffer from tiredness.
In the event I described the effect was real and significant enough for concern.
No amount of planning could have prepared me for this situation, I did not know I could have been susceptible having never encountered such a scenario in such conditions. Also, it was not possible to pull off for a break because there was no opportunity once I had entered the works section. I had only been driving for 30 minutes prior to entering the works, I was alert at this time. As soon as I left the works I was again absolutely fine, awake and alert - really. Don’t get me wrong; I don’t have any difficulty driving slowly, as evidenced by my getting caught in the inescapable slow jam on that same stretch on the way up earlier in the day without problem.
I strongly suspect that going that bit quicker in the described scenario would have offered more of a mental stimulus, hence delaying the onset of fatigue. Also it results with reduced time being spent in the restricted section; these two coupled together results with the driver being disproportionately less tired. Weighing that up against the increased risk to the workmen – who were not there – suggests that it makes sense for that limit to have been perhaps 50 instead of 40. Don’t get me wrong, there is no speed where everything suddenly becomes OK, but 40 for so long in such conditions is clearly an issue (for me anyway); I’m concerned with net risk minimisation. I suspect I am not a unique case given that a significant proportion of all crashes are sleep/fatigue related (dft_rdsafety_032139).
Getting to the point:
I mentioned this experience on another forum only to be met with a chorus of abuse. No one would accept that could happen, not even to a minority of drivers (bar those with a medical condition). The others in the thread saw it merely as a poor excuse to drive faster. I argued that the effect was genuine citing a good parallel example – boring meetings. I also argued that it would have been safer to drive faster in this case because there were no workers present, hence there was insignificant risk to life, so the risk trade-off would have been positive. My efforts seemed to fall on deaf ears.
The forum is C+
The start of this ‘discussion’ can be found in this thread here (although I joined the thread, indeed the forum, at page 8….):
www.cyclingplus.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=116961&whichpage=20
I was not able to register as ‘smeggy’, I guess my reputation preceded me
I’m sure you’ll soon be able to deduce my nick.
I would like to know what experienced PHers think of the general arguments given from the others. Also, I would like to know if their behaviour could be considered reasonable (those more experienced with forum clashes may realise where I’m going with this).
Please please, do not join up to post a response in the thread, no matter how tempted you are. I strongly suspect anyone posting the same opinion as I will automatically be drawn into a pointless flame war, which would benefit no one.
Thoughts?
Thanks for all the replies.
I feel there is a general consensus that drivers in the stated conditions could suffer from tiredness.
In the event I described the effect was real and significant enough for concern.
No amount of planning could have prepared me for this situation, I did not know I could have been susceptible having never encountered such a scenario in such conditions. Also, it was not possible to pull off for a break because there was no opportunity once I had entered the works section. I had only been driving for 30 minutes prior to entering the works, I was alert at this time. As soon as I left the works I was again absolutely fine, awake and alert - really. Don’t get me wrong; I don’t have any difficulty driving slowly, as evidenced by my getting caught in the inescapable slow jam on that same stretch on the way up earlier in the day without problem.
I strongly suspect that going that bit quicker in the described scenario would have offered more of a mental stimulus, hence delaying the onset of fatigue. Also it results with reduced time being spent in the restricted section; these two coupled together results with the driver being disproportionately less tired. Weighing that up against the increased risk to the workmen – who were not there – suggests that it makes sense for that limit to have been perhaps 50 instead of 40. Don’t get me wrong, there is no speed where everything suddenly becomes OK, but 40 for so long in such conditions is clearly an issue (for me anyway); I’m concerned with net risk minimisation. I suspect I am not a unique case given that a significant proportion of all crashes are sleep/fatigue related (dft_rdsafety_032139).
Getting to the point:
I mentioned this experience on another forum only to be met with a chorus of abuse. No one would accept that could happen, not even to a minority of drivers (bar those with a medical condition). The others in the thread saw it merely as a poor excuse to drive faster. I argued that the effect was genuine citing a good parallel example – boring meetings. I also argued that it would have been safer to drive faster in this case because there were no workers present, hence there was insignificant risk to life, so the risk trade-off would have been positive. My efforts seemed to fall on deaf ears.
The forum is C+
The start of this ‘discussion’ can be found in this thread here (although I joined the thread, indeed the forum, at page 8….):
www.cyclingplus.co.uk/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=116961&whichpage=20
I was not able to register as ‘smeggy’, I guess my reputation preceded me
I’m sure you’ll soon be able to deduce my nick. I would like to know what experienced PHers think of the general arguments given from the others. Also, I would like to know if their behaviour could be considered reasonable (those more experienced with forum clashes may realise where I’m going with this).
Please please, do not join up to post a response in the thread, no matter how tempted you are. I strongly suspect anyone posting the same opinion as I will automatically be drawn into a pointless flame war, which would benefit no one.
Thoughts?
Dogmatic cycling zealots who mindlessly preach jihad against motorists are as bad as the mindless self-appointed representatives of motoring, such as Clarkson, who preach jihad against cyclists.
The world would be a better place without any of them.
Cycling Plus is in certain ways akin to Top Gear - something of a caricature, often farcical, reliably a waste of space, and always confident of the rightness of its point of view, irrespective of how wrong it may be.
The world would be a better place without any of them.
Cycling Plus is in certain ways akin to Top Gear - something of a caricature, often farcical, reliably a waste of space, and always confident of the rightness of its point of view, irrespective of how wrong it may be.
On a serious note did that stretch Sunday night when nearly empty...and found it REALLY difficult to stick to 40. No-one around (workmen or other cars), clear sight, felt like I should be doing a fair bit more. Speed kept creeping up unless I concentrated.
And yes, I too felt more tired doing that bit than doing c.90 before and after. Although I'm not sure I'd use the word 'fatigued'.
And yes, I too felt more tired doing that bit than doing c.90 before and after. Although I'm not sure I'd use the word 'fatigued'.
I went through the M1 specs at the start of my journey to Newcastle and found it the worst part of the trip. I felt tired and not at all focused, and was wondering if I should continue to drive on. About 10 mins after coming out of it and having put my foot down I felt much better. Thank god for cruise control though, otherwise what little concentration I could muster would have been spent watching the speedo.
For the journey home I took a detour that skipped around it.
For the journey home I took a detour that skipped around it.
CommanderJameson said:
havoc said:
Read a few posts on C+, found there was no mental stimulation, got tired, came back here to wake up!
It's the same old same old over there. Motorists are evil, speed limits are good per se, never mind the facts.
Globulator said:
CommanderJameson said:
havoc said:
Read a few posts on C+, found there was no mental stimulation, got tired, came back here to wake up!
It's the same old same old over there. Motorists are evil, speed limits are good per se, never mind the facts.
lol, as usual you get a few prats on there - no different to the folk here who think bikes shouldn't be allowed on the roads.
As far as the M1 40mph zones, did it twice last week & do it most weeks on my trawls up the M1. No problem with them personally, certainly I don't find them in any way, shape or form fatiguing or tiring. That's more than I can say for the consistently shite driving exhibited by reps on a Monday morning.
Petrol Ted summed up purrfectly when he pulled plug on martin crowe.. aka alex snelling .. aka Cathy Brown.. aka spindrift 
Now in 20th incarnation und no one can spend so much time on t'internet und still train to ride up und down the big mountain passes like Tourmalet.. (which I think he only heard of because it was the col on which Simpson collapsed und died as result of pushing himself too far und taking a strong stimulant to overcome the fatigue..
That type who spend each und every day on that site cannot claim to be "productive" in their jobs as they claim as they would appear to do no work whatsoever unless being abusive on t'internet ist their "job" - but ride those big rides.. 
by exerising fingers on a keyboard? I do not really think so..
Now in 20th incarnation und no one can spend so much time on t'internet und still train to ride up und down the big mountain passes like Tourmalet.. (which I think he only heard of because it was the col on which Simpson collapsed und died as result of pushing himself too far und taking a strong stimulant to overcome the fatigue.. That type who spend each und every day on that site cannot claim to be "productive" in their jobs as they claim as they would appear to do no work
whatsoever unless being abusive on t'internet ist their "job" - but ride those big rides.. by exerising fingers on a keyboard? I do not really think so.. bga said:
As far as the M1 40mph zones, did it twice last week & do it most weeks on my trawls up the M1. No problem with them personally, certainly I don't find them in any way, shape or form fatiguing or tiring. That's more than I can say for the consistently shite driving exhibited by reps on a Monday morning.
I do monday morning motorway driving too, but don't notice any difference in the driving styles of others to be perfectly honest. How do you know they're reps anyway? (and btw no I'm not a rep!).
It's good that you don't find low motorway limits tiring, but would you accept that it may cause some drivers to concentrate less than they otherwise would? I don't attempt to justify that lack of concentration should it happen, but I just ask if you think it could be possible and does happen?
Also interested to know, how do you personally keep alert on a long motorway drive when you do the likes of the M1 40 zones? Do you feel any difference in awareness levels at all? Do you ever experience tiredness at the wheel in any other type of situation?
deeps said:
I do monday morning motorway driving too, but don't notice any difference in the driving styles of others to be perfectly honest. How do you know they're reps anyway? (and btw no I'm not a rep!).
The rep bit is a flippant generalisation, the behaviour of Monday morning drivers on the M1 is down to personal opinion - there may be nothing in it but I perceive there to me generally more cutting up, tailgating etc.
deeps said:
It's good that you don't find low motorway limits tiring, but would you accept that it may cause some drivers to concentrate less than they otherwise would? I don't attempt to justify that lack of concentration should it happen, but I just ask if you think it could be possible and does happen?
I'm sure there is a psychological effect which can induce boredom and an effect of fatigue in some people. We are all different after all.
deeps said:
Also interested to know, how do you personally keep alert on a long motorway drive when you do the likes of the M1 40 zones? Do you feel any difference in awareness levels at all? Do you ever experience tiredness at the wheel in any other type of situation?
This is a tricky one to articulate. Personally I still carry out the same observation and hazard identification that I would at normal motorway speeds. If the M1 roadworks were much longer then I may react differently.
Situations that I do find more tiring are driving in the rain and continuous stop-start traffic for a long duration (over an hour). In these situations I normally park up for 10 mins or so where appropriate.
bga said:
[quote=deeps]
Situations that I do find more tiring are driving in the rain and continuous stop-start traffic for a long duration (over an hour). In these situations I normally park up for 10 mins or so where appropriate.
Situations that I do find more tiring are driving in the rain and continuous stop-start traffic for a long duration (over an hour). In these situations I normally park up for 10 mins or so where appropriate.
Fair enough, funny though because I'm the opposite, I love driving in the rain especially on motorways, but I guess I'm in a small minority there! It amazes me though that the majority of drivers don't allow extra space or alter their driving plan at all despite the slippery surface and reduced visibility.
deeps said:
Fair enough, funny though because I'm the opposite, I love driving in the rain especially on motorways, but I guess I'm in a small minority there! It amazes me though that the majority of drivers don't allow extra space or alter their driving plan at all despite the slippery surface and reduced visibility.
I can't disagree with that! It amazes me that there is such disregard for basic laws of physics
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