"SAFESPEED" in the London Lite Today
Discussion
Einion Yrth said:
VH, have you ever convinced any dissenting voice that you are correct WRT speed limits and their observation? If not, why do you continue, it just makes you look like a dogmatic legalist, and wastes bandwidth.
I suspect he thinks the same about us complaining about "Speed Kills" and just 1mph over the limit = massacred children etc..and the zeal with which the motorist is prosecuted.
spnracing said:
Its safe for drivers to select their own speed up to the posted limit in force.
Are you being serious there? I sure do hope not. Are you honestly saying that 71mph on a 4 lane 3 mile straight bit of road is "unsafe" yet 70mph is "safe"?
safespeed said:
vonhosen said:
safespeed said:
spnracing said:
vonhosen said:
I have not said that I advocate prosecuting to tight margins, but what we have to get away from is the "I'm a good driver, I'm safe, I can judge what speed is appropriate & will drive to what I think is appropriate irresepective of the limit" attitude.
Agree 100%. Drivers choosing their own "Safespeed" is a recipe for disaster.
Yep. Paint windscreens black. Fit dirty great big speedometers. That'll make sure that all drivers concentrate on what's REALLY important.
That is patently not the answer & no-one is suggesting that it is.
It is not being suggested that speed compliance is the be all & end all, as I've said I am not talking about prosecuting for minor transgressions or small fluctuations.
It's a continuum...
At the extreme left (0%) we have 100% driver attention on the road ahead...
At the extreme right (100%) we have an imaginary situation where 100% of driver attention is on the speedo...
In the real world we're probably sitting at about 4%, something like that. But cameras and oversimplified official messages are increasing the figure. I'm saying it's already far too high and getting worse. For an experienced and responsible driver 0.5% is probably the maximum desirable figure.
To put this in proper context, find me ANY experienced and responsible driver who won't be perfectly safe without a (working) speedo.
Paul, everday I see experienced responsible drivers making errors with their assessment of appropriate speed by carrying too much speed into a hazard., so it's not a case of finding ANY , because they are absolutely everywhere. Have you never been what you considered too hot into a hazard that it couldn't be considered to be a "perfectly" safe entry speed ?
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 3rd February 11:58
vonhosen said:
Paul, everday I see experienced responsible drivers making errors with their assessment of appropriate speed by carrying too much speed into a hazard., so it's not a case of finding ANY , because they are absolutely everywhere. Have you never been what you considered too hot into a hazard that it couldn't be considered to be a "perfectly" safe entry speed ?
You think the speedo helps people to slow for hazards? You're kidding, right?
safespeed said:
vonhosen said:
Paul, everday I see experienced responsible drivers making errors with their assessment of appropriate speed by carrying too much speed into a hazard., so it's not a case of finding ANY , because they are absolutely everywhere. Have you never been what you considered too hot into a hazard that it couldn't be considered to be a "perfectly" safe entry speed ?
You think the speedo helps people to slow for hazards? You're kidding, right?
That's not what I said.
You said
safespeed said:
find me ANY experienced and responsible driver who won't be perfectly safe without a (working) speedo.
I'm saying that without referring to their speedo, experienced & responsible drivers get speed into hazards wrong every day.
Their judgement is shown to not be 100% right or "perfectly safe" as you put it.
Because people do that, we have limits set so that they can't legally attain much higher speeds between hazards with which to exaggerate their errors of judgement on approach. Instead the parameters within which they can legally operate are clearly defined in order to minimise the risk of them getting it wrong & the consequences of them doing so.
It's because people aren't "perfectly safe" when choosing their own speeds that we have limits. If they were we wouldn't need them.
Are you not an experienced & responsible driver & have you not been too hot into a hazard on occasion ?
Please tell me, you are & you haven't.
I know I am & I have.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 3rd February 14:05
Are we saying that as soon as you pass your driving test that your qualified to decide the appropriate speed you can drive at? How does paul or anyone feel we should decide at what point you are qualified to decide your own speed? From my experience on the roads each day either at work or not I feel too great a proportion of the driving public are not qualified to decide. My own views are that driving standards are on average not good enough to go the route paul suggests.
When drivers are approaching hazards I suspect they decide on suitable speeds by looking at the scene outside and judging the feel of their speed, rather than looking at the speedometer and saying, for example: "Speedo. says 50 mph, but I think 40-45 would be more appropriate here." It's probably done by driving according to what feels about right, and finding that in the vast majority of cases it is satisfactory.
Well that's what I do anyhow. It wouldn't cause me any concern at all to drive around without a speedometer, apart from having a bit of verification in speed camera situations.
Anyhow Mrs TripleS has decided she fancies a few days in Cornwall, so we're going to have a tootle down there tomorrow. Save us a bit of nice weather Mr Deeps, if you would be so kind.
Take care all, and best wishes,
Dave.
Well that's what I do anyhow. It wouldn't cause me any concern at all to drive around without a speedometer, apart from having a bit of verification in speed camera situations.
Anyhow Mrs TripleS has decided she fancies a few days in Cornwall, so we're going to have a tootle down there tomorrow. Save us a bit of nice weather Mr Deeps, if you would be so kind.
Take care all, and best wishes,
Dave.
TripleS said:
When drivers are approaching hazards I suspect they decide on suitable speeds by looking at the scene outside and judging the feel of their speed, rather than looking at the speedometer and saying, for example: "Speedo. says 50 mph, but I think 40-45 would be more appropriate here." It's probably done by driving according to what feels about right, and finding that in the vast majority of cases it is satisfactory.
Well that's what I do anyhow. It wouldn't cause me any concern at all to drive around without a speedometer, apart from having a bit of verification in speed camera situations.
Anyhow Mrs TripleS has decided she fancies a few days in Cornwall, so we're going to have a tootle down there tomorrow. Save us a bit of nice weather Mr Deeps, if you would be so kind.
Take care all, and best wishes,
Dave.
Well that's what I do anyhow. It wouldn't cause me any concern at all to drive around without a speedometer, apart from having a bit of verification in speed camera situations.
Anyhow Mrs TripleS has decided she fancies a few days in Cornwall, so we're going to have a tootle down there tomorrow. Save us a bit of nice weather Mr Deeps, if you would be so kind.
Take care all, and best wishes,
Dave.
The purpose of the speedo, as I said, is to limit your progress between hazards (it's at favourable times the speedo comes into use, not adverse times), because the risk of you getting the approach speed wrong increases where you could legally attain much higher speeds between hazards. That & because we "ALL" get the approach speed wrong at times because we are human.
As individuals we may be happy with how few times we get it wrong & the risk we represent, but that doesn't mean that others who share the road with us are.
On a personal note, I'll use the speedo on approach not to assist on what is the appropraite speed for approach, but to assist in gauging whether I'm going to drop to a speed that requires a different gear to the one I'm in, as the most appropriate gear.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 3rd February 14:58
vonhosen said:
TripleS said:
When drivers are approaching hazards I suspect they decide on suitable speeds by looking at the scene outside and judging the feel of their speed, rather than looking at the speedometer and saying, for example: "Speedo. says 50 mph, but I think 40-45 would be more appropriate here." It's probably done by driving according to what feels about right, and finding that in the vast majority of cases it is satisfactory.
Well that's what I do anyhow. It wouldn't cause me any concern at all to drive around without a speedometer, apart from having a bit of verification in speed camera situations.
Anyhow Mrs TripleS has decided she fancies a few days in Cornwall, so we're going to have a tootle down there tomorrow. Save us a bit of nice weather Mr Deeps, if you would be so kind.
Take care all, and best wishes,
Dave.
Well that's what I do anyhow. It wouldn't cause me any concern at all to drive around without a speedometer, apart from having a bit of verification in speed camera situations.
Anyhow Mrs TripleS has decided she fancies a few days in Cornwall, so we're going to have a tootle down there tomorrow. Save us a bit of nice weather Mr Deeps, if you would be so kind.
Take care all, and best wishes,
Dave.
The purpose of the speedo, as I said, is to limit your progress between hazards (it's at favourable times the speedo comes into use, not adverse times), because the risk of you getting the approach speed wrong increases where you could legally attain much higher speeds between hazards. That & because we "ALL" get the approach speed wrong at times because we are human.
As individuals we may be happy with how few times we get it wrong & the risk we represent, but that doesn't mean that others who share the road with us are.
On a personal note, I'll use the speedo on approach not to assist on what is the appropraite speed for approach, but to assist in gauging whether I'm going to drop to a speed that requires a different gear to the one I'm in, as the most appropriate gear.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 3rd February 14:58
I think that is fantasy VH. Maybe at some time in the past there may have been a touch of truth to it, but now? Speed limits seem set without rhyme or reason these days, often varying dramatically within a few hundred yards. (with no hazards perceivable)
s2art said:
vonhosen said:
TripleS said:
When drivers are approaching hazards I suspect they decide on suitable speeds by looking at the scene outside and judging the feel of their speed, rather than looking at the speedometer and saying, for example: "Speedo. says 50 mph, but I think 40-45 would be more appropriate here." It's probably done by driving according to what feels about right, and finding that in the vast majority of cases it is satisfactory.
Well that's what I do anyhow. It wouldn't cause me any concern at all to drive around without a speedometer, apart from having a bit of verification in speed camera situations.
Anyhow Mrs TripleS has decided she fancies a few days in Cornwall, so we're going to have a tootle down there tomorrow. Save us a bit of nice weather Mr Deeps, if you would be so kind.
Take care all, and best wishes,
Dave.
Well that's what I do anyhow. It wouldn't cause me any concern at all to drive around without a speedometer, apart from having a bit of verification in speed camera situations.
Anyhow Mrs TripleS has decided she fancies a few days in Cornwall, so we're going to have a tootle down there tomorrow. Save us a bit of nice weather Mr Deeps, if you would be so kind.
Take care all, and best wishes,
Dave.
The purpose of the speedo, as I said, is to limit your progress between hazards (it's at favourable times the speedo comes into use, not adverse times), because the risk of you getting the approach speed wrong increases where you could legally attain much higher speeds between hazards. That & because we "ALL" get the approach speed wrong at times because we are human.
As individuals we may be happy with how few times we get it wrong & the risk we represent, but that doesn't mean that others who share the road with us are.
On a personal note, I'll use the speedo on approach not to assist on what is the appropraite speed for approach, but to assist in gauging whether I'm going to drop to a speed that requires a different gear to the one I'm in, as the most appropriate gear.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 3rd February 14:58
I think that is fantasy VH. Maybe at some time in the past there may have been a touch of truth to it, but now? Speed limits seem set without rhyme or reason these days, often varying dramatically within a few hundred yards. (with no hazards perceivable)
The level that the speed limit is set at is a different matter.
You may judge that the limit is inappropriately low because of the absence of hazards, but that doesn't make it dangerous for you to check the speedo at that limit in order to comply with it, because as we have said hazards are few & you will only be checking at favourable times if you are doing it right.
It may not be always immeadiately obvious why a limit is what it is, because that limit may be set around times of the day where conditions are generally more adverse than when you are witnessing it. We don't generally have variable limits after all, except on some of our motorways.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 3rd February 15:18
vonhosen said:
On a personal note, I'll use the speedo on approach not to assist on what is the appropraite speed for approach, but to assist in gauging whether I'm going to drop to a speed that requires a different gear to the one I'm in, as the most appropriate gear.
That seems surprising. I would have thought you would be happy to judge the need for a gear change without needing to check with the speedometer first. Maybe you need that wild lass from Cumbria to get you to feel the speed.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
vonhosen said:
It may not be always immeadiately obvious why a limit is what it is, because that limit may be set around times of the day where conditions are generally more adverse than when you are witnessing it. We don't generally have variable limits after all, except on some of our motorways.
You often get some little turd scamming limits like this when it isn't 'Hazard Time'.
I have written and complained about one such limit near me suggesting that a variable limit be introduced and the reply I got can be summarised as 'We don't do that - it's expensive and drivers may find it confusing'!!
The thing is you would need to be driving with your eyes closed to hit the rear end of a rush hour queue at 70, the former limit, anyway.
Edited by alphadog on Saturday 3rd February 16:04
TripleS said:
vonhosen said:
On a personal note, I'll use the speedo on approach not to assist on what is the appropraite speed for approach, but to assist in gauging whether I'm going to drop to a speed that requires a different gear to the one I'm in, as the most appropriate gear.
That seems surprising. I would have thought you would be happy to judge the need for a gear change without needing to check with the speedometer first. Maybe you need that wild lass from Cumbria to get you to feel the speed.
Best wishes all,
Dave.
I use the Rev counter to assist for upchanges & the speedo for "range checking" with down changes.
Edited by vonhosen on Saturday 3rd February 16:16
vonhosen said:
safespeed said:
vonhosen said:
Paul, everday I see experienced responsible drivers making errors with their assessment of appropriate speed by carrying too much speed into a hazard., so it's not a case of finding ANY , because they are absolutely everywhere. Have you never been what you considered too hot into a hazard that it couldn't be considered to be a "perfectly" safe entry speed ?
You think the speedo helps people to slow for hazards? You're kidding, right?
That's not what I said.
You said
safespeed said:
find me ANY experienced and responsible driver who won't be perfectly safe without a (working) speedo.
I'm saying that without referring to their speedo, experienced & responsible drivers get speed into hazards wrong every day.
Their judgement is shown to not be 100% right or "perfectly safe" as you put it.
Because people do that, we have limits set so that they can't legally attain much higher speeds between hazards with which to exaggerate their errors of judgement on approach. Instead the parameters within which they can legally operate are clearly defined in order to minimise the risk of them getting it wrong & the consequences of them doing so.
It's because people aren't "perfectly safe" when choosing their own speeds that we have limits. If they were we wouldn't need them.
My choice of words in 'perfectly safe' wasn't good, so let me try that again.
- I think speedos and speed limits are both useful and beneficial.
- What we're talking about is relative importance of speedo and speed limit compared with responsible behaviour and judgement - as used and displayed by real drivers in the real world.
With that in mind, the loss of safety affecting an experienced and responsible driver when his speedo fails is negligible. I DON'T believe that a speedo is of any significant benefit to safety when slowing for a hazard.
My interest in questioning behavior in the absence of a speedo is not because I want to get rid of speedo or speed limits - it is because I want the speedo and the speed limit to be given the right degree of priority to be as useful and as beneficial as possible. And the optimal degree of priority is probably ten times less than present practice.
vonhosen said:
Are you not an experienced & responsible driver & have you not been too hot into a hazard on occasion ?
Please tell me, you are & you haven't.
I know I am & I have.
Please tell me, you are & you haven't.
I know I am & I have.
Of course. I am and I have too. But it's got very little to do this the speedo.
And if the speedo does have some tiny impact, I'd suggest that it's to make it worse rather then better. Without it you're continuously making judgements. With it there's a tendency to say to yourself 'I should be doing 60mph here', possibly even when you shouldn't.
vonhosen said:
Are you not an experienced & responsible driver & have you not been too hot into a hazard on occasion ?
Please tell me, you are & you haven't.
I know I am & I have.
Please tell me, you are & you haven't.
I know I am & I have.
If I may ask, what were the circumstances Von? Did it happen above or below the limit, and would the same thing have happened if you had glanced at your speedo?
Do those "hot" moments still happen, and if so do you believe it's because you don't use the speedo enough?
deeps said:
herewego said:
Some bends have maximum advised speeds. A speedometer comes in pretty handy then.
There's one around here that is advised at 30 max, the handy speedo confirms what a nonsense that is when I take it comfortably at 60!
Exactly. And if you didn't have your speedometer, how would you know if you were approaching at a reasonable speed or what you know to be a safe speed?
Edited by herewego on Saturday 3rd February 18:00
vonhosen said:
I use the Rev counter to assist for upchanges & the speedo for "range checking" with down changes.
Same here, only I don't have to look at the rev counter - it beeps at 7500 rpm which is time to change up!
I always change down when braking, so sometimes a glance at the speedo is handy then.
TripleS said:
Anyhow Mrs TripleS has decided she fancies a few days in Cornwall, so we're going to have a tootle down there tomorrow. Save us a bit of nice weather Mr Deeps, if you would be so kind.
Take care all, and best wishes,
Dave.
Take care all, and best wishes,
Dave.
I'm not quite that far down Dave, but it's been glorious down this way today.
If you're using the M5, watch out for specs cameras near Exeter when the motorway ends, there was a thread about them a couple of weeks back.
herewego said:
deeps said:
herewego said:
Some bends have maximum advised speeds. A speedometer comes in pretty handy then.
There's one around here that is advised at 30 max, the handy speedo confirms what a nonsense that is when I take it comfortably at 60!
Exactly. And if you didn't have your speedometer, how would you know if you were approaching at a reasonable speed or what you know to be a safe speed?
Edited by herewego on Saturday 3rd February 18:00
I know because I use my eyes and judgement. The speedo does nothing for me here, apart from confirm that the 30 advised max speed is a true nonsense! I would gladly drive a car with no speedo and demonstrate to you that I could still choose a safe speed.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff