Home Detention Curfew
Discussion
I feel for the guy, he seemed a decent chap and we all have unthinking moments, his was just a very bad judgement which resulted in a horrific injury to an innocent party. We've all read about crashes resulting in someone going into another lane, they all could of had the same outcome.
I know of someone who is in jail for life (Whatever that term will be i'm not sure) who killed a guy who was at the time beating up his girlfriend, the guy only hit him once but he fell and hit a kerb.
However it is seen it's a tragic thing to happen and I hope to all concerned the best for the future.
Dave!
I know of someone who is in jail for life (Whatever that term will be i'm not sure) who killed a guy who was at the time beating up his girlfriend, the guy only hit him once but he fell and hit a kerb.
However it is seen it's a tragic thing to happen and I hope to all concerned the best for the future.
Dave!
fluffnik said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
If the motorcyclist had died, would you feel the same?
Yes.
The outcome does not increase culpability.
No, you're quite correct, it doesn't - hence my question.
We'll have to agree to disagree then. In cases where someone's driving falls well below what would normally be expected, I would always be expecting a custodial sentence. It seems you wouldn't and you're entitled to your opinion. I'm just glad the judge in this case holds my opinion rather than yours.
I'm not sure how to feel about this. I live near this road, and have driven along it many times. I have also made a serious mistake while driving along it once - too fast into a corner. Happily, there was no one else coming and I merely ran wide. Had there been a bike coming in the other direction, I could have been in the exact same situation as 10 Pence Short.
He got 12 months in jail, I merely needed a change of underwear...
He got 12 months in jail, I merely needed a change of underwear...
Quinny said:
R_U_LOCAL said:
In cases where someone's driving falls well below what would normally be expected, I would always be expecting a custodial sentence.
Bloody hell
Half the country would be in jail
I presume you mean if they seriously injure, or worse, another person.
No - I mean if their driving was dangerous, as opposed to careless. To be convicted of dangerous driving, the prosecution has to show that a defendent's driving fell well below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver, and that it would have been obvious to them that driving in that way was dangerous.
In those cases, as I said, I'd always be expecting a custodial sentence.
Careless driving is a much less serious offence, in which the prosecution have to show that the level of driving simply fell below what would be expected of a competent and careful driver.
Believe me - it's difficult enough to convinve the CPS to even run a dangerous driving, let alone get a conviction, so if someone is convicted of that offence, their standard of driving will have been apalling, and easily deserving of a prison sentence.
I fully agree with the sentiment that locking up chaps like this does not actually achieve anything positive, however we are all overlooking one of the central tenets of criminal law, which is the deterrent factor in sentencing.
IMHO the thought of a year in prison for an act of stupidity is the only thing which is likely to curb people's driving behaviour.
The thought of going to prison is something which scares the life out of me, and driving offences such as DBDD are one of the easiest ways to get there!
IMHO the thought of a year in prison for an act of stupidity is the only thing which is likely to curb people's driving behaviour.
The thought of going to prison is something which scares the life out of me, and driving offences such as DBDD are one of the easiest ways to get there!
I think its also worth noting, whilst the BiB are jumping on this as fair game, the case of Mohammed Hussain, 26, of burnley.
this is a guy, just out of the nick, who killed a 3 year old girl, then after his stoopidly short sentence, was driving again (in a car he stolen I might add, and with no license, insurance etc) then given still a lesser sentence than 10 pence.
I quote
12 week sentence for hit-and-run killer
Mohammed Hussain, 26, was jailed for 12 weeks following a hit-and-run crash which killed three-year-old Levi Bleasdale.
Levi was hit by a stolen VW Golf, driven by Hussain, as she crossed the road with her mother in Burnley.
Hussain, admitted careless driving, having no licence or insurance, failing to stop and failing to report an accident.
The car was found on the road where Hussain lived and he handed himself in five days later. In addition to the driving offences, Hussain admitted handling stolen goods when he appeared at Burnley Magistrates’ Court. It emerged he was out of prison on parole after being convicted of wounding in 2001. He was sentenced to four weeks for the handling charge and 12 weeks each for the fail to stop and fail to report charges, to run concurrently. He was also banned from driving for five years.
so BiB, whats your angle on this, why didnt your justice stop the death of the toddler, why are you arguing the toss and not locking up the real criminals ?
no wonder there is no faith in the BiB these days.. . .. .. . .. ..
this is a guy, just out of the nick, who killed a 3 year old girl, then after his stoopidly short sentence, was driving again (in a car he stolen I might add, and with no license, insurance etc) then given still a lesser sentence than 10 pence.
I quote
12 week sentence for hit-and-run killer
Mohammed Hussain, 26, was jailed for 12 weeks following a hit-and-run crash which killed three-year-old Levi Bleasdale.
Levi was hit by a stolen VW Golf, driven by Hussain, as she crossed the road with her mother in Burnley.
Hussain, admitted careless driving, having no licence or insurance, failing to stop and failing to report an accident.
The car was found on the road where Hussain lived and he handed himself in five days later. In addition to the driving offences, Hussain admitted handling stolen goods when he appeared at Burnley Magistrates’ Court. It emerged he was out of prison on parole after being convicted of wounding in 2001. He was sentenced to four weeks for the handling charge and 12 weeks each for the fail to stop and fail to report charges, to run concurrently. He was also banned from driving for five years.
so BiB, whats your angle on this, why didnt your justice stop the death of the toddler, why are you arguing the toss and not locking up the real criminals ?
no wonder there is no faith in the BiB these days.. . .. .. . .. ..
Edited by DucatiGary on Sunday 22 April 22:11
id just like to clear this up
16 weeks in the nick for a convicted knife weilding killer.
3 years ban and 12 months in the nick for an enthusiast who over cooked it.
although ive had my run ins with 10 pence, he was just a kid pissing about on the internet, he meant no harm other than having a laugh, this is not justice, this is wasting tax payers money and letting the bad guys go free, sort of make me think the BiB would pref it that way, at least that way they already know whos killed your friggin duaghter .. .. .. .. .. .. not happy
16 weeks in the nick for a convicted knife weilding killer.
3 years ban and 12 months in the nick for an enthusiast who over cooked it.
although ive had my run ins with 10 pence, he was just a kid pissing about on the internet, he meant no harm other than having a laugh, this is not justice, this is wasting tax payers money and letting the bad guys go free, sort of make me think the BiB would pref it that way, at least that way they already know whos killed your friggin duaghter .. .. .. .. .. .. not happy
DucatiGary said:
so BiB, whats your angle on this, why didnt your justice stop the death of the toddler, why are you arguing the toss and not locking up the real criminals ?
no wonder there is no faith in the BiB these days.. . .. .. . .. ..
Edited by DucatiGary on Sunday 22 April 22:11
We can only lock people up for a maximum of 36 hours. Mostly they are locked up for less than 6 hours.
Police do not sentence anyone.
Police gather the facts to present a prosecution. No more, no less. If they present enough facts within that evidence, the prosecution has a better chance of being successful.
What is a real criminal?
I have been policing for a long long time and it is very difficult to distinguish someone as being 'a real criminal'!
Committing a criminal act would qualify anyone to be a real criminal especially if they are unfortunate enough to have enough evidence gathered to support the facts of that criminal act or omission against them.
Do you mean persistent career criminals? That would have been a better description
DucatiGary said:
I think its also worth noting, whilst the BiB are jumping on this as fair game, the case of Mohammed Hussain, 26, of burnley.
this is a guy, just out of the nick, who killed a 3 year old girl, then after his stoopidly short sentence, was driving again (in a car he stolen I might add, and with no license, insurance etc) then given still a lesser sentence than 10 pence.
I quote
12 week sentence for hit-and-run killer
Mohammed Hussain, 26, was jailed for 12 weeks following a hit-and-run crash which killed three-year-old Levi Bleasdale.
Levi was hit by a stolen VW Golf, driven by Hussain, as she crossed the road with her mother in Burnley.
Hussain, admitted careless driving, having no licence or insurance, failing to stop and failing to report an accident.
The car was found on the road where Hussain lived and he handed himself in five days later. In addition to the driving offences, Hussain admitted handling stolen goods when he appeared at Burnley Magistrates’ Court. It emerged he was out of prison on parole after being convicted of wounding in 2001. He was sentenced to four weeks for the handling charge and 12 weeks each for the fail to stop and fail to report charges, to run concurrently. He was also banned from driving for five years.
so BiB, whats your angle on this, why didnt your justice stop the death of the toddler, why are you arguing the toss and not locking up the real criminals ?
no wonder there is no faith in the BiB these days.. . .. .. . .. ..
this is a guy, just out of the nick, who killed a 3 year old girl, then after his stoopidly short sentence, was driving again (in a car he stolen I might add, and with no license, insurance etc) then given still a lesser sentence than 10 pence.
I quote
12 week sentence for hit-and-run killer
Mohammed Hussain, 26, was jailed for 12 weeks following a hit-and-run crash which killed three-year-old Levi Bleasdale.
Levi was hit by a stolen VW Golf, driven by Hussain, as she crossed the road with her mother in Burnley.
Hussain, admitted careless driving, having no licence or insurance, failing to stop and failing to report an accident.
The car was found on the road where Hussain lived and he handed himself in five days later. In addition to the driving offences, Hussain admitted handling stolen goods when he appeared at Burnley Magistrates’ Court. It emerged he was out of prison on parole after being convicted of wounding in 2001. He was sentenced to four weeks for the handling charge and 12 weeks each for the fail to stop and fail to report charges, to run concurrently. He was also banned from driving for five years.
so BiB, whats your angle on this, why didnt your justice stop the death of the toddler, why are you arguing the toss and not locking up the real criminals ?
no wonder there is no faith in the BiB these days.. . .. .. . .. ..
Edited by DucatiGary on Sunday 22 April 22:11
I'll post the same reply to this as I posted in general gassing...
I was the officer in the case for the Levi Bleasdale fatal, so I think I'm better placed than most to put some perspective on the case. It's also no longer subject to subjudice, so I can discuss it openly.
It was nowhere near as simple as the press made out at the time (surprise surprise). Believe me, my colleagues and I worked our proverbial nuts off to secure a charge of causing death by dangerous driving against Hussain, but the evidence simply wasn't there. Yes, he was an unlicenced, uninsured driver in a stolen car who failed to stop after killing a child. In itself, this sounds bad enough, but we truly, desperately wanted to charge him with the most serious offence - causing death by dangerous driving. To bring such a charge, we had to prove that Hussain's driving was dangerous, and that there was a causal link between that dangerous driving and the child's death.
We had plenty of witnesses who were on foot nearby at the time of the accident. Their view was almost universally the same - they saw a black car set off up that road, and that it was making a loud noise. This isn't surprising as the Golf had a loud aftermarket exhaust fitted to it, so it would be loud even at 30MPH. There were no tyre marks at the scene, because Hussain hadn't braked hard enough to either lock the wheels or to activate the ABS. The only evidence the Accident Investigator had to work with was a very small amount of damage to the front of the Golf.
We also had some CCTV footage of the Golf as it entered the road, and some further footage of it stationary at the scene. This footage did not show the manner of driving, but the Accident investigator was able to stage a reconstruction, using the accident vehicle.
Despite all these efforts, the fastest speed that was calculated for the Golf was in the mid-30s. The speed limit on that road was 30MPH, so we could only prove that he was marginally over the speed limit.
When we'd finally arrested Hussain and I got the opportunity to interview him, there was no way that he would admit driving dangerously on the day. He admitted everything else - that he was driving, that he failed to stop, etc, etc, but he wouldn't admit driving dangerously. Just to give you a little insight into the mindset of people like Hussain, I asked him if he had a licence, and he said that he used to have a provisional, but he lost it several years ago. I asked him if he'd ever taken a driving test and he said that no, he hadn't. I then asked him if he thought he was a good driver (an essential point in dangerous driving cases), to which he replied that, yes, he thought he was a good driver - this was because, when he had some lessons about 5 years previously, his instructor told him he was ready for his test.
Combine this lack of evidence with CCTV footage which showed that the child's mother hadn't really taken sufficient care of the child on her journey out of town, and that she was around 10 yards behind her mother as they crossed the road, and you can see that we were starting to struggle.
We went to the senior Crown Prosecutor with a very detailed file, but some fairly flimsy evidence (despite our best efforts), and their decision was that there was insufficient evidence to support a charge of causing death by dangerous driving, for the simple reason that we couldn't prove that his driving was dangerous.
Believe me, a decision like that isn't taken lightly, and after all the work we'd done, it wasn't one we were happy with, but I did understand the reasoning behind it. He was charged with the less serious offence of careless driving (there is still no offence of causing death by careless driving), together with no driving licence, no insurance, failing to stop after an accident and handling stolen goods (the car).
He pleaded guilty to all offences at his first appearance, and as is the law, the bench had to give him credit for an early guilty plea, hence the almost laughable 12 week prison sentence he recieved. This was, in reality, the maximum sentence that the bench could pass - they actually apologised to the child's family in court, but that was it - the most they could sentence him to was 12 weeks.
The press, however, decided immediately that it was the fault of the Police and the CPS. This really wasn't the case - we can only ever go with the evidence we've got and in this case, it didn't support the more serious offence of causing death by dangerous driving. If he had been charged with that offence, I'm in no doubt that a jury would have aquitted him.
Two little asides to the story which might interest you though.
Firstly, Hussain had only recently been released from a substantial prison sentance, on licence. The first thing we did was to have his licence revoked, and so, despite the 12 week sentence for the accident, he actually went back inside for another 18 months - he only got out a few weeks ago.
Secondly, at the scene of the accident, a little shrine appeared - you know the type of thing - flowers, teddies and sympathy cards left near to the scene. Now, one of the local low-lifes was arrested a few days later after he had stolen a teddy from this little shrine. His sentence? 4 months in prison - 4 weeks longer than the driver who killed the child.
glad your being so smug about this, I really dont think your smart enough to see what your typing.. .. ..
one of us is in prison for 12 months for loosing control of his car.
he got 8 times the sentence of a killer, a serial offender, a nasty peice of work that has form for being a bad guy, and your smugly sitting there thinking your doing the population a good job?
if I where you id leave now, quit, even if I had nothing id quit, becuase thats the type of guy i am, I have morals and this just aint cricket.
one of us is in prison for 12 months for loosing control of his car.
he got 8 times the sentence of a killer, a serial offender, a nasty peice of work that has form for being a bad guy, and your smugly sitting there thinking your doing the population a good job?
if I where you id leave now, quit, even if I had nothing id quit, becuase thats the type of guy i am, I have morals and this just aint cricket.
DucatiGary said:
glad your being so smug about this, I really dont think your smart enough to see what your typing.. .. ..
one of us is in prison for 12 months for loosing control of his car.
he got 8 times the sentence of a killer, a serial offender, a nasty peice of work that has form for being a bad guy, and your smugly sitting there thinking your doing the population a good job?
if I where you id leave now, quit, even if I had nothing id quit, becuase thats the type of guy i am, I have morals and this just aint cricket.
one of us is in prison for 12 months for loosing control of his car.
he got 8 times the sentence of a killer, a serial offender, a nasty peice of work that has form for being a bad guy, and your smugly sitting there thinking your doing the population a good job?
if I where you id leave now, quit, even if I had nothing id quit, becuase thats the type of guy i am, I have morals and this just aint cricket.
Who's being smug? I've made it quite clear how disappointed my colleagues and I were at the outcome. What else would you expect us to do? Fabricate some extra evidence to nail his hat on? This isn't the West Midlands Serious Crime Squad in the early 80's you know.
Sentencing and sentencing policy is nothing to do with the Police, so you'll probably find that you're preaching to the converted.
I'm 100% happy that I did everything I possibly could to get a conviction against Hussain. Can you point out to me where I went wrong, or what else I should have done?
Edited by R_U_LOCAL on Sunday 22 April 22:31
DucatiGary said:
id just like to clear this up
16 weeks in the nick for a convicted knife weilding killer.
3 years ban and 12 months in the nick for an enthusiast who over cooked it.
although ive had my run ins with 10 pence, he was just a kid pissing about on the internet, he meant no harm other than having a laugh, this is not justice, this is wasting tax payers money and letting the bad guys go free, sort of make me think the BiB would pref it that way, at least that way they already know whos killed your friggin duaghter .. .. .. .. .. .. not happy
16 weeks in the nick for a convicted knife weilding killer.
3 years ban and 12 months in the nick for an enthusiast who over cooked it.
although ive had my run ins with 10 pence, he was just a kid pissing about on the internet, he meant no harm other than having a laugh, this is not justice, this is wasting tax payers money and letting the bad guys go free, sort of make me think the BiB would pref it that way, at least that way they already know whos killed your friggin duaghter .. .. .. .. .. .. not happy
Well said DG!
10 Pence Short exhibited NO MALICE nor any premeditation.
Justice? Not in my name!
DucatiGary said:
I think its also worth noting, whilst the BiB are jumping on this as fair game, the case of Mohammed Hussain, 26, of burnley.
this is a guy, just out of the nick, who killed a 3 year old girl, then after his stoopidly short sentence, was driving again (in a car he stolen I might add, and with no license, insurance etc) then given still a lesser sentence than 10 pence.
I quote
12 week sentence for hit-and-run killer
Mohammed Hussain, 26, was jailed for 12 weeks following a hit-and-run crash which killed three-year-old Levi Bleasdale.
Levi was hit by a stolen VW Golf, driven by Hussain, as she crossed the road with her mother in Burnley.
Hussain, admitted careless driving, having no licence or insurance, failing to stop and failing to report an accident.
The car was found on the road where Hussain lived and he handed himself in five days later. In addition to the driving offences, Hussain admitted handling stolen goods when he appeared at Burnley Magistrates’ Court. It emerged he was out of prison on parole after being convicted of wounding in 2001. He was sentenced to four weeks for the handling charge and 12 weeks each for the fail to stop and fail to report charges, to run concurrently. He was also banned from driving for five years.
so BiB, whats your angle on this, why didnt your justice stop the death of the toddler, why are you arguing the toss and not locking up the real criminals ?
no wonder there is no faith in the BiB these days.. . .. .. . .. ..
this is a guy, just out of the nick, who killed a 3 year old girl, then after his stoopidly short sentence, was driving again (in a car he stolen I might add, and with no license, insurance etc) then given still a lesser sentence than 10 pence.
I quote
12 week sentence for hit-and-run killer
Mohammed Hussain, 26, was jailed for 12 weeks following a hit-and-run crash which killed three-year-old Levi Bleasdale.
Levi was hit by a stolen VW Golf, driven by Hussain, as she crossed the road with her mother in Burnley.
Hussain, admitted careless driving, having no licence or insurance, failing to stop and failing to report an accident.
The car was found on the road where Hussain lived and he handed himself in five days later. In addition to the driving offences, Hussain admitted handling stolen goods when he appeared at Burnley Magistrates’ Court. It emerged he was out of prison on parole after being convicted of wounding in 2001. He was sentenced to four weeks for the handling charge and 12 weeks each for the fail to stop and fail to report charges, to run concurrently. He was also banned from driving for five years.
so BiB, whats your angle on this, why didnt your justice stop the death of the toddler, why are you arguing the toss and not locking up the real criminals ?
no wonder there is no faith in the BiB these days.. . .. .. . .. ..
Staggering, unbelievable....this should be impossible.
Talk about lose all faith in "the system" - that is bullshit.
Sentencing is not permitted on the outcome of the injuries sustained during a collision on a road. The courts will only consider the sentence on the degree of the evidence supporting the seriousness of the lapse or seriousness of the conduct prior to or leading up to the collision.
Unfortunately for 'one of us', those facts were obviously damning as the Judge interpreted them being serious enough to take his liberty for 12 months!
Had there been evidence of pre accident conduct supported by members of the motoring public?
Who knows?
That's why police put out appeals after such incidents. You would be surprised how much information comes in after this sort of incident!
Third party perception (pre collision behaviour and driving) is something we should all consider should something go wrong moments later.
Who saw the behaviour 5 minutes prior to the incident occurring?
Who is willing to give an account about that behaviour? You would probably be very surprised indeed!
Unfortunately for 'one of us', those facts were obviously damning as the Judge interpreted them being serious enough to take his liberty for 12 months!
Had there been evidence of pre accident conduct supported by members of the motoring public?
Who knows
? That's why police put out appeals after such incidents. You would be surprised how much information comes in after this sort of incident!
Third party perception (pre collision behaviour and driving) is something we should all consider should something go wrong moments later.
Who saw the behaviour 5 minutes prior to the incident occurring?
Who is willing to give an account about that behaviour? You would probably be very surprised indeed!
mg6b said:
We can only lock people up for a maximum of 36 hours. Mostly they are locked up for less than 6 hours.
Police do not sentence anyone.
Police gather the facts to present a prosecution. No more, no less. If they present enough facts within that evidence, the prosecution has a better chance of being successful.
What is a real criminal?
I have been policing for a long long time and it is very difficult to distinguish someone as being 'a real criminal'!
Committing a criminal act would qualify anyone to be a real criminal especially if they are unfortunate enough to have enough evidence gathered to support the facts of that criminal act or omission against them.
Do you mean persistent career criminals? That would have been a better description
Police do not sentence anyone.
Police gather the facts to present a prosecution. No more, no less. If they present enough facts within that evidence, the prosecution has a better chance of being successful.
What is a real criminal?
I have been policing for a long long time and it is very difficult to distinguish someone as being 'a real criminal'!
Committing a criminal act would qualify anyone to be a real criminal especially if they are unfortunate enough to have enough evidence gathered to support the facts of that criminal act or omission against them.
Do you mean persistent career criminals? That would have been a better description
mg6b's post sounded quite smug to me
R_U_LOCAL said:
[quote=DucatiGary]glad your being so smug about this,
see above.
from what you have said R U LOCAL it sounds like you did everything you could in the other case I quoted, it just makes me think this could have happend to anyone.
I lost controll of my car in the snow back in jan, being a rear wheel drive car I tried to correct the pendulum effect by sending the rear end over the white lines, fortunatly for me no one else was involved, no one was around when I lost it, this could have easily been me if a biker had been coming the other way and being a biker, I wouldnt see this as justice, just another waste of taxpayers money putting the wrong people in the already overcrowded prisons.
Gassing Station | Speed, Plod & the Law | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff