Discussion
Thanks for the replies - some interesting posts and as I say I am not tarring all MOD with the same brush. I had a certain empathy for them though, but at the same time we all lost all respect for them based on their wholly disgusting behaviour towards us.
The police is a funny job - I thought when I joined I would be respected, lol, I now know how it all works. I am entirely grateful to it for opening my eyes to the real world, and what people are really like, however I don't think I would recommend it to my kids. Ironically you can be treated alot worse from within than when you are out on patrol - but thats another story... I still enjoy it for now and so on and so forth...
The police is a funny job - I thought when I joined I would be respected, lol, I now know how it all works. I am entirely grateful to it for opening my eyes to the real world, and what people are really like, however I don't think I would recommend it to my kids. Ironically you can be treated alot worse from within than when you are out on patrol - but thats another story... I still enjoy it for now and so on and so forth...
Dizeee said:
Last night we had to stop two squaddies at 3am.
Now they wee both drunk and said they were squaddies. After a brief intoduction it was apparent that they were drunk & boisterous this turned into 45 minutes of fighting, all at their inititation.
I'll have a word with him when I see him next, kids eh, who'd have um, all I can do is apologize, wait a minute.Now they wee both drunk and said they were squaddies. After a brief intoduction it was apparent that they were drunk & boisterous this turned into 45 minutes of fighting, all at their inititation.
Did you say Signals?. phewwwwwwwwww. My lads in the Engineers so it can't have been him then (not this weekend anyway).
RaksP said:
well IMO its a natural instinct to "fight back" at someone who is accusing you of doing something you didnt do or dont belive is wrong to do! this becomes worse when drunk!
so this is a natural response to the situation and i think police officers need to start to take this into account and START TO USE DISCRETION otherwise the whole country will lose respect for the police and their authority(oops too late!!)
Reading the original and subsequent posts it looks like discretion WAS exercisd and nowhere do I see evidence of them being falsely accused.so this is a natural response to the situation and i think police officers need to start to take this into account and START TO USE DISCRETION otherwise the whole country will lose respect for the police and their authority(oops too late!!)
Could have been worse though. Imagine what might have happened if a copper with your powers of deduction had dealt with it
Anyway, no sympathy for the scaleys. They joined the Army and someone sent them to war? Shock, horror, surprise.
darren_S2 said:
dont think it particularly helps that you get sent somewhere, which can only be descrbed as hell on earth (i.e Afghan or Iraq). Where the norm becomes you walk down the street one day and everyone friendly to the next day that person wanting to put a rocket propelled grenade up your arse, to walking down the street and wondering whether some sniper has his sights trained on you wanting to ventilate your brain.
Then end of tour, you return home, no-one understands what you been through and you just get dumped back onto civvy street and told when to return. Yes everybody has the choice The last thing you want is someone in your face.
Then factor into the equation all of the training and discipline they already receive, much more than in civvie life and the fact that this is sort of drilled into you then that you do need to be aggressive and not be able to back down. What makes you a better/mature solider is the ability to know when to apply all this. When you are young and inexperienced then you maybe missing some of this maturity and hence why you get the outbreaks you do.
Yes there are a few "rambo's" present but it is the few that give the many the bad name.
Whilst I dont agree with the actions nor the circumstances of these guys, and probably the drink not helping I hope I have in someway answered the original poster's questions.
Burgmeister, if you think you can do a better job, pull on a uniform and get involved. With an attitude like that you should apply for mine field detection. My bets are on you will be in the back of a landrover sobbing for mummy within 24 hours.
This is very very true! Then end of tour, you return home, no-one understands what you been through and you just get dumped back onto civvy street and told when to return. Yes everybody has the choice The last thing you want is someone in your face.
Then factor into the equation all of the training and discipline they already receive, much more than in civvie life and the fact that this is sort of drilled into you then that you do need to be aggressive and not be able to back down. What makes you a better/mature solider is the ability to know when to apply all this. When you are young and inexperienced then you maybe missing some of this maturity and hence why you get the outbreaks you do.
Yes there are a few "rambo's" present but it is the few that give the many the bad name.
Whilst I dont agree with the actions nor the circumstances of these guys, and probably the drink not helping I hope I have in someway answered the original poster's questions.
Burgmeister, if you think you can do a better job, pull on a uniform and get involved. With an attitude like that you should apply for mine field detection. My bets are on you will be in the back of a landrover sobbing for mummy within 24 hours.
Remember that not all of them see action, some are just stuck on base which also can have the same sort of effect. Some people learn to deal with these things in different ways.
Dizeeee i agree with you on the professional respect though
Makes sod all difference if they're blowing off steam post conflict or halfway through training. They are a bunch of youngish lads who are being taught to deal with physical risk and conflict. It is liberating. It gives you confidence to deal with all kinds of crap and that also means your inhibition about getting into fracas drops another notch. If you spend a fair bit of time being yelled at by authority figures (e.g. your PT instructor) you get used to it, and being confronted by a cop becomes smaller beer. A few years back a mate was an officer in 45 Commando up at Arbroath. We still got to see quite a bit of him back down south because he regularly had to act as a character witness for one or other of his troopers who'd got in a scrape on leave.
I agree with ATG.
When I joined the army, you got used to being pushed around and verbally abused by screaming men.
By comparison, a happy-chappy copper is nothing.
Still, young pissed up men generally act like
s. You get s in every walk of life.
The army, especially the infantry, recruits a large chunk of mal-adjusted young men/teenagers, many of whom come from council estates. Some people have, when questioned as to their resons for joining, have stated "you see, it was the army or prision". Such was the height of their lawbreaking and see military life and disipline as a way of escaping all that.
Contary to what posters here would have you believe: very few "rambos" exist in the army, especially in the line regiments. They're normally labled as "wrs" and ed off during basic. That and most "hardmen" in the country couldn't stand 2 minutes with military disipline.
Heck, I remember having the audicty to question my SSGT when I asked him "so, er, why am I painting the green grass green?" Never made that mistake. Bloody royals, probably thinks every army base smells of freshly-laid paint.
When I joined the army, you got used to being pushed around and verbally abused by screaming men.
By comparison, a happy-chappy copper is nothing.
Still, young pissed up men generally act like
s. You get s in every walk of life.The army, especially the infantry, recruits a large chunk of mal-adjusted young men/teenagers, many of whom come from council estates. Some people have, when questioned as to their resons for joining, have stated "you see, it was the army or prision". Such was the height of their lawbreaking and see military life and disipline as a way of escaping all that.
Contary to what posters here would have you believe: very few "rambos" exist in the army, especially in the line regiments. They're normally labled as "w
rs" and ed off during basic. That and most "hardmen" in the country couldn't stand 2 minutes with military disipline. Heck, I remember having the audicty to question my SSGT when I asked him "so, er, why am I painting the green grass green?" Never made that mistake. Bloody royals, probably thinks every army base smells of freshly-laid paint.
Hi 
I used to be a soldier,,,and not in the signals
I saw a lot of action....including stuff like picking up pieces of babies after they had been blown up by Semtex...and other stuff involving a lot of other people dying...
When you come home on leave...you do feel unappreciated and lost....its partly the stressful situations you have left and partly the fact that you dont have the "army" round you like a warm coat
The only time I ever got into a fight on leave (in my Regiment IT WOULD HAVE MEANT INSTANT DISMISSAL)....it was to help a Policeman who had been set on by a group of 8 drunks...they had him down and were kicking the **** out of him when I came round the corner....
The reason I waded in was simple...its what I was trained to do.....I saw his uniform and reacted instantly.....I got stuck in and it gave him time to get back on his feet....after a few blows etc .....around 4000 police arrived lol....(he had called for backup) and he spent the next few minutes stopping the backup from trying to hit me
The point I am making here....is that a soldier just back from combat has different reactions and ideals to a civilian...
I am slightly suprised these days that the police get no special training in how to deal with returning squaddies ??
All the best Brett
I used to be a soldier,,,and not in the signals
I saw a lot of action....including stuff like picking up pieces of babies after they had been blown up by Semtex...and other stuff involving a lot of other people dying...
When you come home on leave...you do feel unappreciated and lost....its partly the stressful situations you have left and partly the fact that you dont have the "army" round you like a warm coat
The only time I ever got into a fight on leave (in my Regiment IT WOULD HAVE MEANT INSTANT DISMISSAL)....it was to help a Policeman who had been set on by a group of 8 drunks...they had him down and were kicking the **** out of him when I came round the corner....
The reason I waded in was simple...its what I was trained to do.....I saw his uniform and reacted instantly.....I got stuck in and it gave him time to get back on his feet....after a few blows etc .....around 4000 police arrived lol....(he had called for backup) and he spent the next few minutes stopping the backup from trying to hit me
The point I am making here....is that a soldier just back from combat has different reactions and ideals to a civilian...
I am slightly suprised these days that the police get no special training in how to deal with returning squaddies ??
All the best Brett
Plenty of idiots in all walks of life
Before assuming that "they are only Signals", remember that Signallers get some non-cushy attachments, incl the SAS
Its one thing seeing dead bodies, its a totally different matter when its your mate thats dead, or when you can't trust any civvie, child or anyone because anyone may be carrying a bomb or whatever
Yes when we signed up we recognised the probability that we would go to war. But not far away for what has been proved to be a lie, with little gap between tours of duty to the next hellhole (please do not think that Iraq and Afghanistan are the only dangerous places we have troops) and betrayed by your Government
Of course none of this excuses their conduct. And I am sure the RMP will remind them of that very hard, whereas a Civvie would have just got a caution
Before assuming that "they are only Signals", remember that Signallers get some non-cushy attachments, incl the SAS
Its one thing seeing dead bodies, its a totally different matter when its your mate thats dead, or when you can't trust any civvie, child or anyone because anyone may be carrying a bomb or whatever
Yes when we signed up we recognised the probability that we would go to war. But not far away for what has been proved to be a lie, with little gap between tours of duty to the next hellhole (please do not think that Iraq and Afghanistan are the only dangerous places we have troops) and betrayed by your Government
Of course none of this excuses their conduct. And I am sure the RMP will remind them of that very hard, whereas a Civvie would have just got a caution
jshell said:
It's like screaming at the girl behind the counter when paying a parking fine in person - utterly misdirected. Wouldn't be a copper for anything due to the grief from every angle, though I imagine it could be a very rewarding job.
As opposed to tarring all coppers with the same brush, you mean? The police enforce the law. The CPS decides whether to charge. The courts decide on guilt. Bashing the police is easy to do as it menas you don't realy have to think about what the fundamental underlying issue is.
In my past experience, Redcaps patroled with pick-axe handles ... highly effective. Any complaints are dealt with by the explanation that the injured, "Tripped over the Guardroom steps, Sah!!!!" Always accepted by COs. Falling down the engine-room companionway was the Naval equivalent. I guess the RAF had recalcitrants walking into tailplanes (or even propellers) - Streaky
The Tuscan Rat said:
Glad someone was having fun last night....
Had a simular incident a few years back outside Scotland Yard, of all places, except it was about 20 of them all up for fighting. Anyway the shout for help was raised and we soon had them out numbered.
They still wanted to fight until, remembering my finest drill voice, called them to fall into three ranks, and started bellowing orders out, being wooden top guards, they only new one thing...Drill and did as they were told. I then left turned them and marched them at a fast pace around to Wellington Barracks. Was met by the ROS ( Regt. Orderly Sgt. ) who took over and picked the pace up straight into the inner square at Wellington Barracks. While the Guard commander made us coffee we watched a beasting only a Guards Sgt could administer.
Err....exactly what is a beasting?Had a simular incident a few years back outside Scotland Yard, of all places, except it was about 20 of them all up for fighting. Anyway the shout for help was raised and we soon had them out numbered.
They still wanted to fight until, remembering my finest drill voice, called them to fall into three ranks, and started bellowing orders out, being wooden top guards, they only new one thing...Drill and did as they were told. I then left turned them and marched them at a fast pace around to Wellington Barracks. Was met by the ROS ( Regt. Orderly Sgt. ) who took over and picked the pace up straight into the inner square at Wellington Barracks. While the Guard commander made us coffee we watched a beasting only a Guards Sgt could administer.
Edited by The Tuscan Rat on Thursday 12th July 19:37
Chilli said:
Err....exactly what is a beasting?
A little bit of light exercise 
ETA "official" definition available here: http://www.arrse.co.uk/wiki/index.php/Beasting
Edited by ATG on Friday 13th July 08:54
tvrslag said:
I think you will find that every garrison town has had its fair share of saturday night bust ups between the squaddies the locals and the police.
JIMHO
JIMHO
:cough: Aldershot! :cough:
In all seriousness though, if these guys had been to a 'front line' in a pukka combat zone you'd probably have been thinking 'PTSD'. But signals?!? Sounds like attitude and alcohol...nothing different from any other chav (and you do get them in the Army!).
I've only ever been in one proper fist fight in my adult life (yes sure there's been the odd pushy shovvy incident) I was 21 at the time it was Nov 1990 and I'd just come back from Israel where I'd been working in the suez canal ensuring the safe transit of just about everything heading for Saudi and the first Gulf War, I had 2 weeks stood down and deployed back out there just before Christmas, we all knew that kick off would be in January and at that time we were all pretty sure that the Iraqi's had some pretty nasty nerve and chemical agents, the original projections for the opening days of the land war estimated coalition forces would take a casualty rate of between 15-30% maybe more if NBC weapons were used, at that time those beliefs were very real and what we were expecting.
Anyway the 2 weeks back home were a bit twitchy to say the least, I didn't have people around me who could relate to what I was feeling, yes I had mates and they all made sure I went out for beers etc with them but I simply wasn't really on the same level I was a coiled spring and actually a bit of a hazard to be around. Things came to head and I snapped one night when someone said something that I'd normally of just shrugged off (someone who went to school with my older brother said he was a cvnt for being in the army and a cvnt being deployed to saudi, he then added I must have been some sort of cvnt as well for going out there) anyway it ended with lots of claret and I was absolutely covered in blood none of which was mine, and the other guys was sparko and quite badly hurt, i was dragged off by people some of whome also copped some and dragged down the road by gob smacked mates who had never seen anything like that from me in their lives, I then sat in field with a few of my closest mates and cried like a baby i couldn't stop saying sorry for what I'd done and fealt truely like a lost soul, to this day I am totally ashamed of my conduct that night.
But the bottom line was or is that yound men who have been trained very well to do their job and are genuinely facing the prospect or either having to inflict death on others or lose their own lives are dangerous people to be around, I dare say the shrinks and docs out there could come up with all sorts of reasons and justifications but the bottom line is that the armed force have created very effective fighters, they've directed this requirement in all sorts of directions from fighter pilot, to submarine drivers, from signals to chefs to special forces the bottom line is they are all cogs in a machine whose principle purpose is to fight and take life (yes sure they have secondary roles of creating peace and protecting the innocent but they are a force first and formost) and when young men and women who are often not from the most extensive educational backgrounds have to come to terms with that it can and does send some of them a little lar lar, all the time they are in their environment they can be the most proffesional effective macine you could imagine but as individuals in the real world they are unguided missiles.
I was lucky the night I lost it and there was never any repercussions from the authorities as it could have ended my career, I saw a good friend who was a young troop commander in 2 para with a golden future in front of him loose everything for throwing a man through a plate glass window in a central london pub, the trigger in that case was the other guy had shaken a collection tin for the "volunteers back home" (it was an irish pub, this was the late 80's, and he was home from Belfast on leave)
I've typed the above story not to show how tough and hard i've been, nor to make excuses for the 2 squaddies that dizee had the displeasure to come across, it's meant to show that young men in their early 20's aren't adults, they haven't got the maturity a lot of time to deal with the situations they're in but they are trained to fight and often it's what they resort to when faced with a situation they can't deal with. It's also a sad fact that as a copper you are just another civvy but with a uniform, you won't be regarded with anymore respect than anyone else because to them you haven't "been there".
Oddly enough I've also been threatened with arrest for putting a police inspector against a wall by his throat when he couldn't do his job properly and was putting my guys lives at risk and causing additional grief to bereaved relatives, I was sober, working and there because the emergency services couldn't cope with the situation, things like that stick in your mind and mean there is often little respect for a blue uniform and hi viz jacket well atleast till you get a bit older and grow up fully.
Anyway the 2 weeks back home were a bit twitchy to say the least, I didn't have people around me who could relate to what I was feeling, yes I had mates and they all made sure I went out for beers etc with them but I simply wasn't really on the same level I was a coiled spring and actually a bit of a hazard to be around. Things came to head and I snapped one night when someone said something that I'd normally of just shrugged off (someone who went to school with my older brother said he was a cvnt for being in the army and a cvnt being deployed to saudi, he then added I must have been some sort of cvnt as well for going out there) anyway it ended with lots of claret and I was absolutely covered in blood none of which was mine, and the other guys was sparko and quite badly hurt, i was dragged off by people some of whome also copped some and dragged down the road by gob smacked mates who had never seen anything like that from me in their lives, I then sat in field with a few of my closest mates and cried like a baby i couldn't stop saying sorry for what I'd done and fealt truely like a lost soul, to this day I am totally ashamed of my conduct that night.
But the bottom line was or is that yound men who have been trained very well to do their job and are genuinely facing the prospect or either having to inflict death on others or lose their own lives are dangerous people to be around, I dare say the shrinks and docs out there could come up with all sorts of reasons and justifications but the bottom line is that the armed force have created very effective fighters, they've directed this requirement in all sorts of directions from fighter pilot, to submarine drivers, from signals to chefs to special forces the bottom line is they are all cogs in a machine whose principle purpose is to fight and take life (yes sure they have secondary roles of creating peace and protecting the innocent but they are a force first and formost) and when young men and women who are often not from the most extensive educational backgrounds have to come to terms with that it can and does send some of them a little lar lar, all the time they are in their environment they can be the most proffesional effective macine you could imagine but as individuals in the real world they are unguided missiles.
I was lucky the night I lost it and there was never any repercussions from the authorities as it could have ended my career, I saw a good friend who was a young troop commander in 2 para with a golden future in front of him loose everything for throwing a man through a plate glass window in a central london pub, the trigger in that case was the other guy had shaken a collection tin for the "volunteers back home" (it was an irish pub, this was the late 80's, and he was home from Belfast on leave)
I've typed the above story not to show how tough and hard i've been, nor to make excuses for the 2 squaddies that dizee had the displeasure to come across, it's meant to show that young men in their early 20's aren't adults, they haven't got the maturity a lot of time to deal with the situations they're in but they are trained to fight and often it's what they resort to when faced with a situation they can't deal with. It's also a sad fact that as a copper you are just another civvy but with a uniform, you won't be regarded with anymore respect than anyone else because to them you haven't "been there".
Oddly enough I've also been threatened with arrest for putting a police inspector against a wall by his throat when he couldn't do his job properly and was putting my guys lives at risk and causing additional grief to bereaved relatives, I was sober, working and there because the emergency services couldn't cope with the situation, things like that stick in your mind and mean there is often little respect for a blue uniform and hi viz jacket well atleast till you get a bit older and grow up fully.
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