Discussion
WE are pushing for change (well I certainly do my bit), But police men and women also have a vote, have an MP, have a councillor, have a voice, indeed they have every opportunity to push for change the same as WE do, but they are positioned even better to actually achieve something.
deltaf said: Because they only enforce the law, they don’t make it. Its that simple. WE are the ones who have to push for a change.
Rich...
p.s. Do you really believe it's that simple? I don’t! Do you suggest the Police have no influence on government? Do you believe they cannot influence judges? Do you really believe the CPS, the Police and the Justice system have absolutely no influence on each other? Come on... R...
RichB said:Possibly… I understand the process is police/CPS/law/government etc. But I feel very strongly that if a law is a bad law - and there are some terrible laws in force at the moment - then the police DO have a part to play in changing it. It is NOT good enough for them to sit back and say "sorry chum but it's the law". - So why won't they (the police) do something about it then?
pbrettle said: RichB, A little harsh maybe?Rich...
So what do you suggest they do?
I thought it was down to the government and courts that make the law of the land.
We as electors vote for who we believe, rightly or wrongly, for the members of parliment from which that government is chosen.The last election a very large proportion of the population couldn't be bothered to vote let alone demonstrate,protest,write letters to there MP etc.
At the last council elections,and these are the people resonsible for introducing speed ramps,speed limits etc the turnout was pathetic!
If as a society we can not be bothered to participate fully in the democratic process in this country why should we expect others to do it for us
It is the job of the Police officers in the country to uphold/enforce the law of the land weather they agree with it or not
There are many laws in this country which i,and i suspect many people on this forum disagree with,but we abide by them. Directing grief towards people trying to uphold those laws in difficult circumstances (i.e one hand tied behind their backs by beurachacy) does nothing to assist in getting the law changed.
Rant over
Signed pi55ed of from Canterbury
Sorry about the spelling mistakes and poor grammer but...........
Well said Gemini 
Ive only been participating on this forum for about 5 months and ive noticed in this time several threads which quite frankly are a load of Bo***cks.
Some of the comments are not even suitable for the Maxpower site im sure.
I like many others have great sympathy for people who are given points for exceeding the speed limits by a handful of miles per hour...but not for the ones that literaly obliterate it.
Obviously people on here like to vent their anger at the police (trying to get street cred im sure) who are a very easy target as only a handful of us can/will answer back.
Obviously this is a public forum and you will/do get a fair share of numpties on here but i will continue to give advice to genuine/interesting cases but will ignore the wind-up-merchants who have nothing better to do all day than to type away on their keyboards.
Ive only been participating on this forum for about 5 months and ive noticed in this time several threads which quite frankly are a load of Bo***cks.
Some of the comments are not even suitable for the Maxpower site im sure.
I like many others have great sympathy for people who are given points for exceeding the speed limits by a handful of miles per hour...but not for the ones that literaly obliterate it.
Obviously people on here like to vent their anger at the police (trying to get street cred im sure) who are a very easy target as only a handful of us can/will answer back.
Obviously this is a public forum and you will/do get a fair share of numpties on here but i will continue to give advice to genuine/interesting cases but will ignore the wind-up-merchants who have nothing better to do all day than to type away on their keyboards.
llamekcuf said: Is it the sort of organisation where they take kindly to individual officers complaining about the law that they are told to enforce? Just out of interest.
I can tell you that most officers are not happy with some of the legislation that we have in order to crack down on offenders. To allow offenders of serious criminal acts to walk away uncharged because of weaknesses in case law is frustrationg to say the least, more so when they get to Court and are aquitted on the trial about the paperwork and not the facts that got them there. Court cases these days usually revolve around whether the Police and CPS have included the right forms and done the right things to make the trial fair to the defendant. Very few are fought on the facts that the offender is guilty of the criminal act or not.
The Police Service is an organisation which is driven by politics. Officers at the point of service to the public have very little say in what happens at executive level, even less at Political level.
Even the Police Federation which looks after the rights of those serving up to and including inspector level, cannot collectively influence changes in law to benefit those we serve. They try hard but mostly fail, even in changes to legislation which adversely affect their membership.
Over the last 10 years, Govt has slowly but successfully eroded most allowances that were set within the conditions of service. there are now several different scales of pay structure within the Police in relation to rent/housing allowance. Detective allowance and other benefits have just been lost due to cost cutting by the Home office in the latest Police reform bill.
Collective grass roots level of officers cannot keep or change rules that benefit themselves so how can they possibly instill change to national law and procedure as individuals. As Police Constable, you do as you are told and speak when you are spoken to. During HMI inspections when HMI inspector of constabulary makes annual visits to each force, certain officers are selected to be interviewed by HMI to give him an insight into what is happeneing at grass roots level. It takes a very brave or pi55ed off officer to tell the whole truth when there is a very senior officer listening to the conversation.
Changes in law are really only possible when there is a huge concern highlighted by a procedure or lack of a procedure within the court system itself. These are made on the recommendation of Judges.
It is possible for Chief Police officers to put pressure on the Home office to consider law change but it does not happen very quickly or very readily (it also requires them ganging up and not trying on individual basis).
You only have to look at the status of Cannabis at the moment. Over 2 years ago the Home office decided they were going to de-classify it to class 'C' therefore taking the power of arrest away from possession for personal use. This has not happened yet and as far as I can see is unlikely to in the forseable future.
There are very many bad laws which are seriously outdated. (note the labour Govt were quick to bring down the age of consent for Homosexual intercourse. How many of them like to bugg3r schoolboys remains a closely guarded secret
Modernisation of law to suit a specific interest? I leave that to your own personal interpretations) Where speeding is concerned, you cannot argue that to hit someting hard with lots of velocity is likely to do it and the subject it collides with more damage than to hit it slowly. Speed is a safety issue. There are many more vehicles using the roads than there were 10 years ago. There are many more people in those environments where fast moving objects are likley to interact with them. That is why there has to be a regulation to try and cut down on the consequences of mistakes made.
Mistakes made at higher speed leave little time to correct and need more space to do so.
Driving standards are appalingly inadequate at the levels where authority to drive alone is granted to cope with modern cars, many outdated roads and the huge increase in usage by all those that benefit from being within the roads environment.
I understand the frustration that people feel when they are legislated against particualarly when it restricts individual freedoms and choices, but that is how society manages to function without anarchy.
Personally, I do not think that the raising of speed limits to 90mph on motorways would be a significant problem as that is roughly the speeds that are encountered as mean speeds at the present levels in conditions of free flow.
I do think though that this would give some drivers the excuse to travel at more than 100mph everywhere as it is only a little over the limit.
Stopping distance at 70 mph on a dry road in a good car with maintained tyres and brakes is recommended to be 315 feet. Experience tells me that this is a little over the actual capabilities on a dry road. On a wet road this is underestimated mail bigbrowncow if you need confirmation about this
Stopping distance at 100 mph is 600 feet and that is a long way.
This supposes that the driver is alert to the moment he needs to apply the brakes when the need arises and is not distracted from doing so by anything else. At 100mph there will be many more serious consequences for innocent victims on todays overcrowded roads.
I assume that comment's aimed at whoever wound Geminii up in the first place as opposed to me? I have no anger towards police, I simply have an opininon and posed a question, i.e. why don't campaing for bad laws to be changed? Several people have said they can't but that's wrong, so why else do they publicly support crap laws yet privatly rubbish them? Rich...
tonyrec said: Obviously people on here like to vent their anger at the police (trying to get street cred im sure) who are a very easy target as only a handful of us can/will answer back.
Obviously this is a public forum and you will/do get a fair share of numpties on here but i will continue to give advice to genuine/interesting cases but will ignore the wind-up-merchants who have nothing better to do all day than to type away on their keyboards.
Err write to their local paper, a letter from a serving police officer carries loads more weights than one from Joe Public. Join the ABD. Make opinions known to Chief of Police, communicate with MPs and ministers etc. etc. It's not difficult really. Rich...
pies said:
RichB said:Possibly… I understand the process is police/CPS/law/government etc.
pbrettle said: RichB, A little harsh maybe?
So what do you suggest they do?
OK off to take an extended lunch-break now to read MadCop's latest paperback! Cheers Rich...
madcop said:I can tell you that most officers are not happy with some of the legislation that we have in order to crack down on offenders.
llamekcuf said: Is it the sort of organisation where they take kindly to individual officers complaining about the law that they are told to enforce? Just out of interest.
Err write to their local paper, a letter from a serving police officer carries loads more weights than one from Joe Public. Join the ABD. Make opinions known to Chief of Police, communicate with MPs and ministers etc. etc. It's not difficult really. Rich...
RichB said:
So what do you suggest they do?
I have done this type of thing. It creates a slanging match from other readers of the local paper. I did not write annonymously but the paper chose to withold my details without me asking them to do so.
The letter was then subject of a witch hunt by the local area commander (who is not my boss) but he made his feeling perfectly known to me about writing to the press without putting it through the press office. I made my feelings known to him as a local rates payer. We agreed to differ.
What irked me even more was that the letter was basically defending local Police activity under severe criticism from whingers that had been ignored by the management who should have taken the opportunity to reply themselves. I pulled no punches in the letter and referred to the problem of the Police having to wipe the backsides of those who cannot lead normal lives without guidance or assistance from a uniformed service. This being the main cause of the stretch on resources.
IT WAS NOT WELL RECEIVED, by the readers or the management because it told the truth!
RichB said:I assume that comment's aimed at whoever wound Geminii up in the first place as opposed to me? I have no anger towards police, I simply have an opininon and posed a question, i.e. why don't campaing for bad laws to be changed? Several people have said they can't but that's wrong, so why else do they publicly support crap laws yet privatly rubbish them? Rich...
tonyrec said: Obviously people on here like to vent their anger at the police (trying to get street cred im sure) who are a very easy target as only a handful of us can/will answer back.
Obviously this is a public forum and you will/do get a fair share of numpties on here but i will continue to give advice to genuine/interesting cases but will ignore the wind-up-merchants who have nothing better to do all day than to type away on their keyboards.
Can you give examples please
Tony Martin dosent count found guilty by judge and jury he exceeded "reasonable force"
Ambulance driver Case in progress (not caught but the police but a horrid Gatso) so that dont count
Not being able to procecute 9 year olds, well where would you set the age limit, and what would you do to prevent others doing it
I do not agree that these cases prove bad laws.
Swilly,
I think you are quite correct there. To climb the career ladder in a public agency / service you have to tow the 'party' line. Which is often set by the politicians who respond to a vocal minority rather than to the everday members of the public who just get on with life and accept and tolerate everday annoyances (like us). Quitely doing a good job in political life is seen as unacceptable and therefore politicians tend to devote time and effort to sensationalist crusades and often ill thought out ideas merely to raise their public profile (and perhaps i'm wrong but probably also derive some smug satisfaction at what they believe to be a job well done). It wouldn't be so bad if there was some differentiation between parties, but there isn't.
IMO the further up the ladder you go the more you become a management / political bitch. Which given the financial rewards is perhaps understandable. Politicians don't seem to be doing what is 'right' anymore as this is often the most difficult path to take and one that requires a degree of courage and moral fortitude. Politicians are what we have made them - self serving, short sighted, and reactionary. The same vocal minorities who instigate these proposals are also the ones who will get politicians re-elected, who in turn determine the priorities for the Police / NHS / Local Authorities / etc. Certainly for local authorities the local councillors have a major say in who is appointed at the top of the organisation. They theyfore appoint someone who will be their bitch and within reason do their bidding so as to further their own career. And if the chief executive says we are doing so and so, even though he may believe it to be a waste of public resources, you do it or you never get promoted again.
Sorry i'm on nights...
What i'm trying to say is that the politicians hold more power than you think. If you want to get on (in a local authority) you pander to the politicians. And if the chief exec (or divisional commander) has to, what chance do you think the average road safety engineer (or Police officer) has? If you don't - no promotion and you and your family suffer.
As members of the public you do not have your livelihood threatened by disagreeing with the powers that be. This is not the case for all.
Therefore...
In short we are fcuked. The country has just departed for hell travelling by handcart
>> Edited by DRG on Friday 6th June 13:06
>> Edited by DRG on Friday 6th June 13:17
I think you are quite correct there. To climb the career ladder in a public agency / service you have to tow the 'party' line. Which is often set by the politicians who respond to a vocal minority rather than to the everday members of the public who just get on with life and accept and tolerate everday annoyances (like us). Quitely doing a good job in political life is seen as unacceptable and therefore politicians tend to devote time and effort to sensationalist crusades and often ill thought out ideas merely to raise their public profile (and perhaps i'm wrong but probably also derive some smug satisfaction at what they believe to be a job well done). It wouldn't be so bad if there was some differentiation between parties, but there isn't.
IMO the further up the ladder you go the more you become a management / political bitch. Which given the financial rewards is perhaps understandable. Politicians don't seem to be doing what is 'right' anymore as this is often the most difficult path to take and one that requires a degree of courage and moral fortitude. Politicians are what we have made them - self serving, short sighted, and reactionary. The same vocal minorities who instigate these proposals are also the ones who will get politicians re-elected, who in turn determine the priorities for the Police / NHS / Local Authorities / etc. Certainly for local authorities the local councillors have a major say in who is appointed at the top of the organisation. They theyfore appoint someone who will be their bitch and within reason do their bidding so as to further their own career. And if the chief executive says we are doing so and so, even though he may believe it to be a waste of public resources, you do it or you never get promoted again.
Sorry i'm on nights...
What i'm trying to say is that the politicians hold more power than you think. If you want to get on (in a local authority) you pander to the politicians. And if the chief exec (or divisional commander) has to, what chance do you think the average road safety engineer (or Police officer) has? If you don't - no promotion and you and your family suffer.
As members of the public you do not have your livelihood threatened by disagreeing with the powers that be. This is not the case for all.
Therefore...
In short we are fcuked. The country has just departed for hell travelling by handcart
>> Edited by DRG on Friday 6th June 13:06
>> Edited by DRG on Friday 6th June 13:17
I have done this type of thing.... The letter was then subject of a witch hunt by the local area commander... IT WAS NOT WELL RECEIVED...
madcop said:Err write to their local paper, a letter from a serving police officer carries loads more weights than one from Joe Public.
RichB said:
So what do you suggest they do?
I know I'm at lunch at the mo
but... IYO will the Chief of Police for Avon and Somerset get censured for the comments in yesterday's Daily Mail regarding Tallivans? Rich...
RichB said:
I know I'm at lunch at the mo
Probably not, because he is a policy maker and not a policy complier. I note though he has the full support of his Chief Constable, just as Steven Byers did over the various fo-pars he was involved in and the Prime-minister gave him full support.
Remeber Ron Davies the creeper of Clapham Common (ex Welsh Secretary) again was given full support by the prime minister. Look at him now
What about 'Two Jags' now 'Two fingers', how long will the Deputy Prime Minister receive full support from his boss?
Yeah, but given the comments made in the DM yesterday, the Police were trying to save face and rescue some public opinion by some astute PR work - they didnt say anything that could be construde as dangerous or counter to public policy (quite well done really if I am honest). Just merely highlighting, carefully, the bizzare situation. So hats off to Avon and Somerset, they could of course of turned round and said 'no comment' which would have fueled the debate and got the DM on their high-horse again....
Cheers,
Paul
Cheers,
Paul
Gemini,
No one asks you to reply. If you're fed up of repetetive bullcr@p, don't reply. Big deal.
This is an online forum. And sometimes people ask stupid questions, but I'm sure a lot of guys 'n gals genuinely appreciate what the coppers think and actually do learn from explanations like the ones Madcop treats us to.
If you still don't like it, and you get pissed off even reading through a particular online forum like the Speeding, Plod & Law one, no offense, but then stay away and don't post messages like this that don't have any added value at all.
Cheers,
Wim
No one asks you to reply. If you're fed up of repetetive bullcr@p, don't reply. Big deal.
This is an online forum. And sometimes people ask stupid questions, but I'm sure a lot of guys 'n gals genuinely appreciate what the coppers think and actually do learn from explanations like the ones Madcop treats us to.
If you still don't like it, and you get pissed off even reading through a particular online forum like the Speeding, Plod & Law one, no offense, but then stay away and don't post messages like this that don't have any added value at all.
Cheers,
Wim
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