Discussion
RichB,
It is not as simple as you think for the police to get involved in legislation change.
They can do it, in the same way as we all can, through their voting rights. At present it seems whoever one votes for, they are guaranteed imbeciles that will not present decent legislation and successful administration of the country.
What is required is perhaps a coup or revolt of some kind at the extreme end, or perhaps some kind of sabotage (nothing illegal) as a more realistic route of action.
You cannot expect members of the Police force, who are in place to uphold the law, to take any extreme measures. How do you know whether many of them are NOT actioning for change? However, I would expect that they cannot be as vehement as members of the public can be.
I assume that you are a member of the public, as am I, and to be frank it is us who should be acting to change things.
Much as I believe in my ability to drive at a high speed, I do not believe that speed limits should be increased cart blanche. Most people only think of themselves in a scenario, and they think they are safe drivers at speed. Perhaps, but they forget about drivers who are idiots and incapable of being trusted to drive at an appropriate speed, whatever the limit is, and those who will go on to break an even higher limit. Come across one going the other way who loses control and hits you, you may then understand why such low speed limits are in place. It has moved on to becoming revenue generation, but this is a vicious circle, if we (road users) didn't speed, we wouldn't have created such a market for them.
At present, although in my opinion the speed limits are too low, they are still too high for some of the calibre of drivers that I have seen on the road. What we have resulted in is the lowest common denominator. This is the problem. The level of driver ability/awareness in this country is appalling, and therefore we (society) are only to blame ourselves.
Anyone who has dealt with salvage cars will know the damage that an impact of 70/80/90+mph can do.
There is a definite need for the detection and conviction of more serious offences, such as driving without insurance, dangerous driving etc etc. speeding on its own is not substantially dangerous if in a suited vehicle in correct condition, correct stretch of road (inc traffic density), with an capable driver. Problem is this is not always the case, and unfortunately the gatso and other detection devices cannot differentiate.
What does sincerely irrate me, is that serious crimes that have resulted in a victim (speeding doesn't always do so), are not treated with the conviction that they deserve. Burglars are told they will not be imprisoned, murderers are given 15 years imprisonment etc etc. It is a sad state of affairs, but none of this is the fault of the police, nor is it something they can remedy.
An idea to ponder, to illustrate a point and the general public's opinion on speed limits:
Organise several days where masses of drivers drive along nominated stretches of road, at ridiculously slow speeds, slowing down traffic, especially delivery vehicles and public transport.
Of course, initially, businesses may suffer, as well as perhaps ourselves and other members of the public, through delays arriving to work etc etc.
Other things that could be done:
stop using our cars.
stop smoking
stop drinking alcohol
stop consuming/purchasing anything else that involves highly taxed items
stop speeding
These type of actions are more likely to cause a reaction.
But this involves many, many people being unified.
It is unlikely to ever happen. Sadly, we have a deficient, pitiful sorry excuse of a government in power, and there aren't enough people who seem to realise/willing to do anything about this.
It is not as simple as you think for the police to get involved in legislation change.
They can do it, in the same way as we all can, through their voting rights. At present it seems whoever one votes for, they are guaranteed imbeciles that will not present decent legislation and successful administration of the country.
What is required is perhaps a coup or revolt of some kind at the extreme end, or perhaps some kind of sabotage (nothing illegal) as a more realistic route of action.
You cannot expect members of the Police force, who are in place to uphold the law, to take any extreme measures. How do you know whether many of them are NOT actioning for change? However, I would expect that they cannot be as vehement as members of the public can be.
I assume that you are a member of the public, as am I, and to be frank it is us who should be acting to change things.
Much as I believe in my ability to drive at a high speed, I do not believe that speed limits should be increased cart blanche. Most people only think of themselves in a scenario, and they think they are safe drivers at speed. Perhaps, but they forget about drivers who are idiots and incapable of being trusted to drive at an appropriate speed, whatever the limit is, and those who will go on to break an even higher limit. Come across one going the other way who loses control and hits you, you may then understand why such low speed limits are in place. It has moved on to becoming revenue generation, but this is a vicious circle, if we (road users) didn't speed, we wouldn't have created such a market for them.
At present, although in my opinion the speed limits are too low, they are still too high for some of the calibre of drivers that I have seen on the road. What we have resulted in is the lowest common denominator. This is the problem. The level of driver ability/awareness in this country is appalling, and therefore we (society) are only to blame ourselves.
Anyone who has dealt with salvage cars will know the damage that an impact of 70/80/90+mph can do.
There is a definite need for the detection and conviction of more serious offences, such as driving without insurance, dangerous driving etc etc. speeding on its own is not substantially dangerous if in a suited vehicle in correct condition, correct stretch of road (inc traffic density), with an capable driver. Problem is this is not always the case, and unfortunately the gatso and other detection devices cannot differentiate.
What does sincerely irrate me, is that serious crimes that have resulted in a victim (speeding doesn't always do so), are not treated with the conviction that they deserve. Burglars are told they will not be imprisoned, murderers are given 15 years imprisonment etc etc. It is a sad state of affairs, but none of this is the fault of the police, nor is it something they can remedy.
An idea to ponder, to illustrate a point and the general public's opinion on speed limits:
Organise several days where masses of drivers drive along nominated stretches of road, at ridiculously slow speeds, slowing down traffic, especially delivery vehicles and public transport.
Of course, initially, businesses may suffer, as well as perhaps ourselves and other members of the public, through delays arriving to work etc etc.
Other things that could be done:
stop using our cars.
stop smoking
stop drinking alcohol
stop consuming/purchasing anything else that involves highly taxed items
stop speeding
These type of actions are more likely to cause a reaction.
But this involves many, many people being unified.
It is unlikely to ever happen. Sadly, we have a deficient, pitiful sorry excuse of a government in power, and there aren't enough people who seem to realise/willing to do anything about this.
Good post Maven, hit the nail on the head, especially regarding us lot needing to be unified.
At the moment we're about as disunified as its possible to get.
We dont have a single strong voice to shout for us, we're fragmented.
This is the stick theyre using to beat us with.
Unfortunately, if we dont as a group organise ourselves, we're, as John Laurie would have said;" Were doomed capt mainwaring, doomed, doomed".
The choice is quite simple really, organise or capitulate...which one would you rather do?
My choice is clear.
FIGHT.
At the moment we're about as disunified as its possible to get.
We dont have a single strong voice to shout for us, we're fragmented.
This is the stick theyre using to beat us with.
Unfortunately, if we dont as a group organise ourselves, we're, as John Laurie would have said;" Were doomed capt mainwaring, doomed, doomed".
The choice is quite simple really, organise or capitulate...which one would you rather do?
My choice is clear.
FIGHT.
deltaf said: Good post Maven, hit the nail on the head, especially regarding us lot needing to be unified.
At the moment we're about as disunified as its possible to get.
We dont have a single strong voice to shout for us, we're fragmented.
This is the stick theyre using to beat us with.
Unfortunately, if we dont as a group organise ourselves, we're, as John Laurie would have said;" Were doomed capt mainwaring, doomed, doomed".
The choice is quite simple really, organise or capitulate...which one would you rather do?
My choice is clear.
FIGHT.
How many more times?
(1) JOIN THE ABD
(2) Write sensible stuff to your local paper, MP, and ministers.
(3) JOIN THE ABD
(4) GET OTHERS TO JOIN THE ABD.
GOT IT NOW..............?
www.abd.org.uk
Back on topic..........
Come on, gemini, ignore the stuff that gets up your nose. Enlightened ossifers like your goodself are needed here, and valued by most, I'm sure.
You can't expect criticism of your unworthy colleagues to go unmentioned, though. With the present level of TV exposure from official video material, some pretty suspect stuff is being revealed. Take the motorway patrol that let an 80mph tailgaiter off with an earwigging, then booked a van driver for peeing on the hard shoulder behind his van.
This kind of stuff deserves an airing but in no way implies that all plod are duff.
Come on, gemini, ignore the stuff that gets up your nose. Enlightened ossifers like your goodself are needed here, and valued by most, I'm sure.
You can't expect criticism of your unworthy colleagues to go unmentioned, though. With the present level of TV exposure from official video material, some pretty suspect stuff is being revealed. Take the motorway patrol that let an 80mph tailgaiter off with an earwigging, then booked a van driver for peeing on the hard shoulder behind his van.
This kind of stuff deserves an airing but in no way implies that all plod are duff.
mybrainhurts said:
deltaf said: Good post Maven, hit the nail on the head, especially regarding us lot needing to be unified.
How many more times?
(1) JOIN THE ABD
(2) Write sensible stuff to your local paper, MP, and ministers.
(3) JOIN THE ABD
(4) GET OTHERS TO JOIN THE ABD.
GOT IT NOW..............?
www.abd.org.uk
I would think quite a few PHers are members of the ABD already.If not join up like the man says.
Steve
mybrainhurts
As part of what this discussion has moved to, and in the spirit of further debating:
Unfortunately actioning your suggestions will only serve to resolve things related to motoring, in such a small way over such a long time that any advance made is only in real terms a retardation of restrictions that would be made.
This kind of action rarely moves things quickly enough, and in this case the suggestion will help only motoring law, and that unfortunately is not the only problem the UK has...
Taxation levels that are incurred in UK are extremely suppressive.
The Governments attitude to other forms of crime and criminal retribution is ludicrous, and will, quite simply breed more and more criminals.
A government is not much different to a corporation, in that it requires money to operate.
Consider the income from cigarettes, whereby the government appropriates nearly 90% of the revenue.
There are an estimated 13,000,000 smokers in the UK. Assume that each one will spend an average of (£12 per week) £625 per annum (I know this may be a very conservative figure). Based on those assumptions, potentially something in the region of £140,400,000 in revenue is taken weekly by the government from smokers. Annually this is £7,300,000,000 (£7.3 monetary billions).
Alcohol is also another highly taxed item, but somewhat more difficult to hazard a guess at the weekly revenue generated. Government's revenue per £1 is not far off that for cigarettes.
Petrol is another that is taxed at slightly lower levels than cigarettes (if I recall correctly, roughly 82% of each £1 paid is government income). Remember, there are many people who use their cars unnecessarily. Short trips and the school run are often good examples of this. No driving and no speeding, no income from NIPs.
Perhaps, if everyone did sabotage the government's income in these areas, all of which would be totally legal, they would be forced to sit up and listen.
When a company is not making revenue, it will sit up and change its products, marketing, salespersonnel, premises, or what have you. It will certainly take notice.
As part of what this discussion has moved to, and in the spirit of further debating:
Unfortunately actioning your suggestions will only serve to resolve things related to motoring, in such a small way over such a long time that any advance made is only in real terms a retardation of restrictions that would be made.
This kind of action rarely moves things quickly enough, and in this case the suggestion will help only motoring law, and that unfortunately is not the only problem the UK has...
Taxation levels that are incurred in UK are extremely suppressive.
The Governments attitude to other forms of crime and criminal retribution is ludicrous, and will, quite simply breed more and more criminals.
A government is not much different to a corporation, in that it requires money to operate.
Consider the income from cigarettes, whereby the government appropriates nearly 90% of the revenue.
There are an estimated 13,000,000 smokers in the UK. Assume that each one will spend an average of (£12 per week) £625 per annum (I know this may be a very conservative figure). Based on those assumptions, potentially something in the region of £140,400,000 in revenue is taken weekly by the government from smokers. Annually this is £7,300,000,000 (£7.3 monetary billions).
Alcohol is also another highly taxed item, but somewhat more difficult to hazard a guess at the weekly revenue generated. Government's revenue per £1 is not far off that for cigarettes.
Petrol is another that is taxed at slightly lower levels than cigarettes (if I recall correctly, roughly 82% of each £1 paid is government income). Remember, there are many people who use their cars unnecessarily. Short trips and the school run are often good examples of this. No driving and no speeding, no income from NIPs.
Perhaps, if everyone did sabotage the government's income in these areas, all of which would be totally legal, they would be forced to sit up and listen.
When a company is not making revenue, it will sit up and change its products, marketing, salespersonnel, premises, or what have you. It will certainly take notice.
maven is spot on here - the way to hurt the Govt.(and anyone else) is in the pocket. Unfortunately, this is unlikely to happen, given the abundance of half-wits in our country. If you doubt my words, watch any edition of Question Time. In truth, democracy itself is fundamentally flawed, given that the vote of a f**kwit carries equal weight to that of someone who can tie their own shoelaces unaided.
As has oft been said - The population gets the Govt. and thus the legislation, that they deserve. Nothing short of a numbnut extermination policy will change that.
P.S. I agree with MC on the "vested interest angle" re. gay age of consent - why not just raise the hetero AoC? It's not as if 16 yr-old's are adequately prepared for parenthood, is it?
As has oft been said - The population gets the Govt. and thus the legislation, that they deserve. Nothing short of a numbnut extermination policy will change that.
P.S. I agree with MC on the "vested interest angle" re. gay age of consent - why not just raise the hetero AoC? It's not as if 16 yr-old's are adequately prepared for parenthood, is it?
mybrainhurts said:
deltaf said: Good post Maven, hit the nail on the head, especially regarding us lot needing to be unified.
At the moment we're about as disunified as its possible to get.
We dont have a single strong voice to shout for us, we're fragmented.
This is the stick theyre using to beat us with.
Unfortunately, if we dont as a group organise ourselves, we're, as John Laurie would have said;" Were doomed capt mainwaring, doomed, doomed".
The choice is quite simple really, organise or capitulate...which one would you rather do?
My choice is clear.
FIGHT.
How many more times?
(1) JOIN THE ABD
(2) Write sensible stuff to your local paper, MP, and ministers.
(3) JOIN THE ABD
(4) GET OTHERS TO JOIN THE ABD.
GOT IT NOW..............?
www.abd.org.uk
Valued as they are the ABD HAS NO CLOUT.
Skywarp said: maven is spot on here - the way to hurt the Govt.(and anyone else) is in the pocket. Unfortunately, this is unlikely to happen, given the abundance of half-wits in our country. If you doubt my words, watch any edition of Question Time. In truth, democracy itself is fundamentally flawed, given that the vote of a f**kwit carries equal weight to that of someone who can tie their own shoelaces unaided.
As has oft been said - The population gets the Govt. and thus the legislation, that they deserve. Nothing short of a numbnut extermination policy will change that.
P.S. I agree with MC on the "vested interest angle" re. gay age of consent - why not just raise the hetero AoC? It's not as if 16 yr-old's are adequately prepared for parenthood, is it?
good post skywarp, but, how else would you do it?
edited to say, on second thoughts most people who can tie their shoelaces vote, most numbnuts don't
>> Edited by apache on Sunday 8th June 21:51
apache said:
good post skywarp, but, how else would you do it?
Numbnut Extermination Policy
A simple "phasing out" of soap opera audiences should see Britains average IQ soar.
Seriously, perhaps a sort of credit-rating system whereby individuals votes are weighted according to points scored on a variety of 'use/contribution to society' criteria? The problem comes when trying to quantify 'Common Sense', maybe a control question : Porsche or TVR?
Alternatively, just put me in charge.
Driving enthusiasts/bikers = happy.
Scrotes = dead.
MoJocvh said:
mybrainhurts said:
deltaf said: Good post Maven, hit the nail on the head, especially regarding us lot needing to be unified.
At the moment we're about as disunified as its possible to get.
We dont have a single strong voice to shout for us, we're fragmented.
This is the stick theyre using to beat us with.
Unfortunately, if we dont as a group organise ourselves, we're, as John Laurie would have said;" Were doomed capt mainwaring, doomed, doomed".
The choice is quite simple really, organise or capitulate...which one would you rather do?
My choice is clear.
FIGHT.
How many more times?
(1) JOIN THE ABD
(2) Write sensible stuff to your local paper, MP, and ministers.
(3) JOIN THE ABD
(4) GET OTHERS TO JOIN THE ABD.
GOT IT NOW..............?
www.abd.org.uk
Valued as they are the ABD HAS NO CLOUT.
Ive joined the ABD and more should do so , more people more clout . They seem to be the only ones that speak sense these days
DennisTheMenace said:
Valued as they are the ABD HAS NO CLOUT.
And what makes you think that?
Much of the "opposition" is now nervous and wary of the ABD. And guess where the Daily Mail gets all its anti-govt stuff?
And wasn't it the press that brought us yellow cameras?
The ABD's doing more than you imagine.
If you think that's not enough, join up and make it more effective. It won't break your bank.
DennisTheMenace said:
MoJocvh said:
mybrainhurts said:
deltaf said: Good post Maven, hit the nail on the head, especially regarding us lot needing to be unified.
At the moment we're about as disunified as its possible to get.
We dont have a single strong voice to shout for us, we're fragmented.
This is the stick theyre using to beat us with.
Unfortunately, if we dont as a group organise ourselves, we're, as John Laurie would have said;" Were doomed capt mainwaring, doomed, doomed".
The choice is quite simple really, organise or capitulate...which one would you rather do?
My choice is clear.
FIGHT.
How many more times?
(1) JOIN THE ABD
(2) Write sensible stuff to your local paper, MP, and ministers.
(3) JOIN THE ABD
(4) GET OTHERS TO JOIN THE ABD.
GOT IT NOW..............?
www.abd.org.uk
Valued as they are the ABD HAS NO CLOUT.
Ive joined the ABD and more should do so , more people more clout . They seem to be the only ones that speak sense these days
Yes I quite agree with you, but you're pissing in the wind of collective media/governmental indifferance/outright hostility.
You say the ABD (good people one and all) would like to represent motorists, but how many of those self same motorists have allready succumbed to the non-stop propoganda and have become "numpty-fied"? Too afraid to even DRIVE properly??
A motorists pressure group, unless it can CONVERT those self same numpties into "EVOists" (to coin a phrase)is DOOMED to fail through LACK OF NUMBERS.
A motorists pressure group, unless it can CONVERT those self same numpties into "EVOists" (to coin a phrase)is DOOMED to fail through LACK OF NUMBERS.
I disagree.
The likes of Transport 2000, Brake, etc, etc, are very effective anti car fanatics.
But when you analyse who they are, you find they're the same little group popping up with different identities all over the place.
If the doubters stop moaning about lack of numbers and do something about it by swelling the numbers, things can only get better (did I really say that? spit!).
You've got nothing to lose, and the least you'll get is an excellent stream of information from the newsletter.
Come on...... www.abd.org.uk
mybrainhurts said:
A motorists pressure group, unless it can CONVERT those self same numpties into "EVOists" (to coin a phrase)is DOOMED to fail through LACK OF NUMBERS.
I disagree.
The likes of Transport 2000, Brake, etc, etc, are very effective anti car fanatics.
and T2K have less than 1000 members - less than the ABD. The difference being that T2K have the blessing of bus companies, train operators and various so-called motoring organisations. Motor manufacturers, OTOH do not see fit to support organisations like the ABD because they're doing fine playing the PC game and selling their cars with extra numpty measures that are keeping their turnovers up.
The ABD is also increasingly quoted/interviewed with respect to motoring/political issues - and has to be, since the AA and RAC, supposedly motoring organisations, frequently roll over and toe the government/PC line.
The ABD is then the only voice supporting the motorist.
Transport legislation is put through with input from bus companies and user groups; pedestrian groups; cyclist groups; greenie leftist lentilist sandalistas; even occasionaly the road hauliers; but the millions of motorists are not consulted, - until their wallets come into play.
Its only £20 - half a tank of fuel for most PHers. And it might retain your chance to burn that extra tank of fuel just enjoying being a petrolhead.
The ABD is then the only voice supporting the motorist.
Transport legislation is put through with input from bus companies and user groups; pedestrian groups; cyclist groups; greenie leftist lentilist sandalistas; even occasionaly the road hauliers; but the millions of motorists are not consulted, - until their wallets come into play.
Its only £20 - half a tank of fuel for most PHers. And it might retain your chance to burn that extra tank of fuel just enjoying being a petrolhead.
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