Power Supply Units to GATSO cameras - update
Discussion
Actually, I need a police officer to go to the HSE and ask, as a matter of personal safety, what they're doing about it. I have already fed this information to the HSE's Nottingham office, but they have declined to comment on the outcome of their investigations, citing confidentiality between them and the constabulary involved. (stinks, doesn't it?)
If I can get a serving police officer to ask the question, the HSE is legally obliged to give him / her a full response.
Anyone know yet whether ANY force tests power supplies...?
If I can get a serving police officer to ask the question, the HSE is legally obliged to give him / her a full response.
Anyone know yet whether ANY force tests power supplies...?
Edited by ramtec on Tuesday 25th September 16:28
ramtec said:
As an ex-police officer, I can tell you that the rest of the judicial system is little better. However, the current speed enforcement process has consequences way beyond speeding. People with no experience of the legal system quickly become disillusioned with the apparent injustice of a fundamentally flawed process, a process that runs entirely for the convenience of the people who work within it. With our legislative chambers stuffed full of lawyers and barristers, there seems little likelihood of the legal system being recaptured by those whom it is meant to serve. Indeed, the current legal system demonstrates all and more of the worst practices of the pre-1970s trades union 'closed-shop'.
This is why I keep saying that we need to rip it all out and start again.
Changing MPs is not enough.
So, reading on this thread, IF your case is proven and the power supply is proved to cause reasonable doubt in front of a court, does that mean that all thos caught by GATSO could claim back their fines and sue the scamera partnerships for loss of earnings (from days in court) and/ or additional costs incurred for insuring vehicles.
If this comes off, it could mean the scameraships going bankrupt.... hopefully
If this comes off, it could mean the scameraships going bankrupt.... hopefully
ramtec said:
This from an earlier post by another contributor:
"gatso equipment uses SMPSU's - switch mode power suply units.
SMPSU's couldn't give a flying s***e what the input voltage is like, as long as it's somewhere between 55v and 400v, with a brown out tollerence interval of (I think) at least 2 seconds. Loop resistance is also irrelevent, as long as it can supply the required VA, which is only about 200. Basically the loop resistance would have to be greater than about 40-50 ohms to affect the operation of the camera.
the output will be an absolutely rock solid 5v, 12v and -12v. Similar to a computer power supply."
What this misses is that if the power supply unit is never tested, there is no way of substantiating that the unit's output is within the specified range of tolerance. There is also the matter of reliability of these units. Some would have you believe that they are rock-solid. My own experience in corporate I.T. tells me that the output, even with carefully monitored input, can vary substantially. Indeed, there is an entire industry in I.T. monitoring power supply output, particularly to expensive server processor boards. Hot redundant power supplies exist not just for back-up on total failure, but to switch, if the output strays outside of its prescribed range.
Remember too that GATSO camera modules are calibrated on a stable, laboratory power supply.
Whilst I'm sure that the Crown can rely upon DCA to lean heavily on the Judge in a preliminary hearing to decide whether or not the expert evidence is admissible, the fact remains that CPS and the constabulary don't have an answer to this. In response to a disclosure request, CPS have declined to provide any Home Office specifications, and have even refused to forward the 'Speedmeter Handbook' referred to in the calibration certificate.
In the words of the Head of the Saftey Camera Unit, "No, we've never tested them. Nobody's ever asked that question before..."
There you go. I think that helps with understanding why accuracy is affected. We're talking about electronic circuits, so output voltage of the power supply and circuitry resistance has preset tolerances to ensure accuracy. At the extreme, it's like asking if the radar and camera module would work properly powered by a bolt of lightning. The tolerances are wide, but if the cabinets are NEVER tested, there is absolutely no way of saying that they're within tolerance."gatso equipment uses SMPSU's - switch mode power suply units.
SMPSU's couldn't give a flying s***e what the input voltage is like, as long as it's somewhere between 55v and 400v, with a brown out tollerence interval of (I think) at least 2 seconds. Loop resistance is also irrelevent, as long as it can supply the required VA, which is only about 200. Basically the loop resistance would have to be greater than about 40-50 ohms to affect the operation of the camera.
the output will be an absolutely rock solid 5v, 12v and -12v. Similar to a computer power supply."
What this misses is that if the power supply unit is never tested, there is no way of substantiating that the unit's output is within the specified range of tolerance. There is also the matter of reliability of these units. Some would have you believe that they are rock-solid. My own experience in corporate I.T. tells me that the output, even with carefully monitored input, can vary substantially. Indeed, there is an entire industry in I.T. monitoring power supply output, particularly to expensive server processor boards. Hot redundant power supplies exist not just for back-up on total failure, but to switch, if the output strays outside of its prescribed range.
Remember too that GATSO camera modules are calibrated on a stable, laboratory power supply.
Whilst I'm sure that the Crown can rely upon DCA to lean heavily on the Judge in a preliminary hearing to decide whether or not the expert evidence is admissible, the fact remains that CPS and the constabulary don't have an answer to this. In response to a disclosure request, CPS have declined to provide any Home Office specifications, and have even refused to forward the 'Speedmeter Handbook' referred to in the calibration certificate.
In the words of the Head of the Saftey Camera Unit, "No, we've never tested them. Nobody's ever asked that question before..."
Chrispy Porker said:
How would the power supply affect the reading of the camera?
I appreciate the H and S point re the installation but surely the camera either works or it doesn't?
Not being awkward, I just don't see the significance.
Power is either on or it isn't surely?
Electronics may be susceptible to variations in the voltage, (or frequency of ac), of the power supply, which could affect functioning of said electronics. The way I understand it, the argument is that this could affect the accuracy of the speed measurement. I appreciate the H and S point re the installation but surely the camera either works or it doesn't?
Not being awkward, I just don't see the significance.
Power is either on or it isn't surely?
It is certainly not impossible that Gatso's could be working incorrectly due to faulty power supplies.
eltax91 said:
So, reading on this thread, IF your case is proven and the power supply is proved to cause reasonable doubt in front of a court, does that mean that all thos caught by GATSO could claim back their fines and sue the scamera partnerships for loss of earnings (from days in court) and/ or additional costs incurred for insuring vehicles.
If this comes off, it could mean the scameraships going bankrupt.... hopefully
The Court could rule that there is a general leaning towards accepted accuracy, unless specifically proven to the contrary. Certainly, that's what they've done when the calibration of the camera module has been questioned. However, in this case, the power supplies have never been tested, so yes, I hope it causes all involved severe pain. They f**ked with the wrong Marine...If this comes off, it could mean the scameraships going bankrupt.... hopefully
andmole said:
Chrispy Porker said:
How would the power supply affect the reading of the camera?
I appreciate the H and S point re the installation but surely the camera either works or it doesn't?
Not being awkward, I just don't see the significance.
Power is either on or it isn't surely?
Electronics may be susceptible to variations in the voltage, (or frequency of ac), of the power supply, which could affect functioning of said electronics. The way I understand it, the argument is that this could affect the accuracy of the speed measurement. I appreciate the H and S point re the installation but surely the camera either works or it doesn't?
Not being awkward, I just don't see the significance.
Power is either on or it isn't surely?
It is certainly not impossible that Gatso's could be working incorrectly due to faulty power supplies.
edited to add, btw strangely I agree with fluffnik. The whole shenanigans are so questionable in so many areas, and the distrust of the public so great that we really don't want to start from here. Rip em out, dismantle the edifice and think again.
Needs someone with political balls of high tensile super case hardened shot peened steel to actually do it rather than just type it on a forum though.
Edited by Flat in Fifth on Tuesday 25th September 17:36
Flat in Fifth said:
andmole said:
Chrispy Porker said:
How would the power supply affect the reading of the camera?
I appreciate the H and S point re the installation but surely the camera either works or it doesn't?
Not being awkward, I just don't see the significance.
Power is either on or it isn't surely?
Electronics may be susceptible to variations in the voltage, (or frequency of ac), of the power supply, which could affect functioning of said electronics. The way I understand it, the argument is that this could affect the accuracy of the speed measurement. I appreciate the H and S point re the installation but surely the camera either works or it doesn't?
Not being awkward, I just don't see the significance.
Power is either on or it isn't surely?
It is certainly not impossible that Gatso's could be working incorrectly due to faulty power supplies.
Im all against Gatso's, but honestly think that you're p*****g in the wind.
The things double check with the 2 photos, time stamped,
Bacially you're suggesting that the radar would have to produce an inaccurate speed reading (quite possible) and the corroborative photos would have to produce exactly (more or less) the same innacurate speed reading.
I can see a radar false triggering, but can't see a crystal oscilator slowing down by the same ammount. You've got a mix of analogue and digital technology. Analogue can go off tune/slow down/speed up etc with a voltage change, digital simply works or it doesn't.
The things double check with the 2 photos, time stamped,
Bacially you're suggesting that the radar would have to produce an inaccurate speed reading (quite possible) and the corroborative photos would have to produce exactly (more or less) the same innacurate speed reading.
I can see a radar false triggering, but can't see a crystal oscilator slowing down by the same ammount. You've got a mix of analogue and digital technology. Analogue can go off tune/slow down/speed up etc with a voltage change, digital simply works or it doesn't.
Try telling that to a processor on a server board when a power supply fluctuates.
We have any one of a number of examples from the National Physical Laboratory of inaccuracy in digital circuits being caused by errant power supplies. Sorry, I've heard all of this before, and it doesn't wash.
We have any one of a number of examples from the National Physical Laboratory of inaccuracy in digital circuits being caused by errant power supplies. Sorry, I've heard all of this before, and it doesn't wash.
bryan35 said:
Im all against Gatso's, but honestly think that you're p*****g in the wind.
The things double check with the 2 photos, time stamped,
Bacially you're suggesting that the radar would have to produce an inaccurate speed reading (quite possible) and the corroborative photos would have to produce exactly (more or less) the same innacurate speed reading.
I can see a radar false triggering, but can't see a crystal oscilator slowing down by the same ammount. You've got a mix of analogue and digital technology. Analogue can go off tune/slow down/speed up etc with a voltage change, digital simply works or it doesn't.
Fair enough but, seeing as I have to get my work kettle PAT tested every year, the wThe things double check with the 2 photos, time stamped,
Bacially you're suggesting that the radar would have to produce an inaccurate speed reading (quite possible) and the corroborative photos would have to produce exactly (more or less) the same innacurate speed reading.
I can see a radar false triggering, but can't see a crystal oscilator slowing down by the same ammount. You've got a mix of analogue and digital technology. Analogue can go off tune/slow down/speed up etc with a voltage change, digital simply works or it doesn't.
rs at HSE should pull their fingers out and start asking:1. why Gatso power supplies aren't regularly tested.
2. have risk assesments been carried out for working on the units.
3. why, as per section 12 of The electricity at work regulations, the gatso unit doesn't have a "Means for cutting off the supply and for isolation"
12.—(1) Subject to paragraph (3), where necessary to prevent danger, suitable means (including, where appropriate, methods of identifying circuits) shall be available for-
(a) cutting off the supply of electrical energy to any electrical equipment; and
(b) the isolation of any electrical equipment
Hmmm... Gatso ON.....Gatso OFF.
This is straying from the point. GATSO camera modules will have a power input specification. However wide the tolerance, if the power supply cannot be verified as being within specification then QED the entire unit is outside of its operating parameters.
It will be an interesting preliminary hearing, since the judge will have been pressurised by the DCA (or one of those splendid 'insider' law firms) to find for the Crown, in disallowing our expert witness, but in so doing, the court will be seen to have given its blessing to the criminal negligence of the constabulary...
Any news on whether ANY forces test their power supplies yet?
It will be an interesting preliminary hearing, since the judge will have been pressurised by the DCA (or one of those splendid 'insider' law firms) to find for the Crown, in disallowing our expert witness, but in so doing, the court will be seen to have given its blessing to the criminal negligence of the constabulary...
Any news on whether ANY forces test their power supplies yet?
Edited by ramtec on Tuesday 25th September 18:56
My own 10p on this .
Due to the "rural" position of these things the PSU's should be kept in tip top condition . I would guess they they are of the the same supply as the street lighting . If this is the case then the power to these things would not be of the same "quality" as you would see in your house . Mainly due to the large distance that some of these cables are run . The effect of street lights being turned on/off in batches on these supplies cannot be under-stated .
If there things like a railway ( electric ) near it then real strange things start to happen with the supply , or more detail its the earth gradiant due to the power flow from return the tracks being very a dirty return .
I would expect that at sometime the PSU would have been through the normal approval process for safety vibrataion for use on the street etc .There would have then been some sort of maint schedule for it .
Does the PSU have a battery in the case of mains fail , if so then this would 100% need some sort of prevent maint schedule . They will be sealed but need to replaced every 24 months or so.
Just noticed this :-
3. why, as per section 12 of The electricity at work regulations, the gatso unit doesn't have a "Means for cutting off the supply and for isolation"
There will be a way to isolate somewhere as it is needed sometimes in the case of a knock-down and fireman starts to spray water over it . This is usually a small power pillar ( grep box ) well away from the road .The main power is brought in then via a isolator taken then to the unit . ( Well this is how other street stuff does it )
Good Luck
Due to the "rural" position of these things the PSU's should be kept in tip top condition . I would guess they they are of the the same supply as the street lighting . If this is the case then the power to these things would not be of the same "quality" as you would see in your house . Mainly due to the large distance that some of these cables are run . The effect of street lights being turned on/off in batches on these supplies cannot be under-stated .
If there things like a railway ( electric ) near it then real strange things start to happen with the supply , or more detail its the earth gradiant due to the power flow from return the tracks being very a dirty return .
I would expect that at sometime the PSU would have been through the normal approval process for safety vibrataion for use on the street etc .There would have then been some sort of maint schedule for it .
Does the PSU have a battery in the case of mains fail , if so then this would 100% need some sort of prevent maint schedule . They will be sealed but need to replaced every 24 months or so.
Just noticed this :-
3. why, as per section 12 of The electricity at work regulations, the gatso unit doesn't have a "Means for cutting off the supply and for isolation"
There will be a way to isolate somewhere as it is needed sometimes in the case of a knock-down and fireman starts to spray water over it . This is usually a small power pillar ( grep box ) well away from the road .The main power is brought in then via a isolator taken then to the unit . ( Well this is how other street stuff does it )
Good Luck
Edited by DPX on Tuesday 25th September 19:04
That's an interesting point, since the alleged offence occurred just as the street lights were coming on...
...and no, there is no scheduled (or unscheduled) maintenance whatsoever of the GATSO cabinets power supply unit and its adjoining circuitry...
...and no, there is no scheduled (or unscheduled) maintenance whatsoever of the GATSO cabinets power supply unit and its adjoining circuitry...
Edited by ramtec on Tuesday 25th September 19:11
Hi
I just spotted this thread and all I can say is
YOU ING BEAUTY!! 
The absolute poetry of using the bastards rules and H&S against then is beautiful!
You could put the establishment in a no win situation.
Either the Gatso is wrong or all the H&S PAT testing is wrong.
PLEASE keep us posted!
I just spotted this thread and all I can say is
YOU ING BEAUTY!! The absolute poetry of using the bastards rules and H&S against then is beautiful!
You could put the establishment in a no win situation.
Either the Gatso is wrong or all the H&S PAT testing is wrong.
PLEASE keep us posted!
Edited by odyssey2200 on Tuesday 25th September 19:15
Flat in Fifth said:
edited to add, btw strangely I agree with fluffnik.
Nowt strange about that, I'm right.
Flat in Fifth said:
The whole shenanigans are so questionable in so many areas, and the distrust of the public so great that we really don't want to start from here. Rip em out, dismantle the edifice and think again.
The edifice that needs to go is the state, not just its shiny toys of oppression.Flat in Fifth said:
Needs someone with political balls of high tensile super case hardened shot peened steel to actually do it rather than just type it on a forum though.
...or a public groundswell.I've been working on ending the UK for a while, and England seems to be getting even keener on independence than the Scots...
We just need to make sure that as little bureaucracy as possible survives the split.
All street lighting columns and furniture have to be tested every 5 years this is for electrical safety only and will not test the quality of the supply that has be with in certain limits for volt drop etc. All traffic islands and posts without a built in access panel have to have a small grey supply column with an RCD inside, these columns are opened by a triangular key which is just a bit bigger than the key for gas or electric meter box. It could a good idea to enlarge a gas meter key by opening it up bigger with pliers and put it in your car first aid kit, in case you ever have to assist at a collision involving street furniture, you can turn off anything that could be a danger.
It’s also worth noting that only the highways department can reset an RCD to for example, a Gato that had ‘tripped’ this could take days if not a week or two due to lack of investment in road maintenance
It’s also worth noting that only the highways department can reset an RCD to for example, a Gato that had ‘tripped’ this could take days if not a week or two due to lack of investment in road maintenance
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