If you got caught drifting a roundabout....

[flemke]

vonhosen said:

Kawasicki said:

Is there a oversteer angle limit then? Shouldn't we have an understeer limit too? How about a tyre slip in braking or acceleration limit?

All apply.

Where are these limits specified? Are they some of the numbers on those sticks on posts along the road?

[TomJS]

flemke said:

vonhosen said:

Kawasicki said:

Is there a oversteer angle limit then? Shouldn't we have an understeer limit too? How about a tyre slip in braking or acceleration limit?

All apply.

Where are these limits specified? Are they some of the numbers on those sticks on posts along the road?

I haven't read the whole thread, but on occasions 928 + wet roundabout + 300 hp = back breaks away. It's quite easy to catch it but I'm interested whether this would be deamed bad driving? I know all these fancy modern cars have traction control PSD or whatever. Mine doesn't. It's very easy to suddenly need to apply a bit of opposite lock... I'm sure some TVR owners could back me up re: wet days.

[vonhosen]

flemke said:

vonhosen said:

Kawasicki said:

Is there a oversteer angle limit then? Shouldn't we have an understeer limit too? How about a tyre slip in braking or acceleration limit?

All apply.

Where are these limits specified? Are they some of the numbers on those sticks on posts along the road?

They don't need to be. Under normal circumstances a reasonable, prudent & competent driver is expected to not be approaching the limits of grip on a public road.
If you are inducing it for fun there's a chance you'll end up with a Sec 3 &/or Sec 59 warning.

Edited by vonhosen on Thursday 17th January 23:00

[time2react]

The public highway is not a playground. If you want to play like a Child go find a sand pit.

[Furberger]

vonhosen said:

Kawasicki said:

Is there a oversteer angle limit then? Shouldn't we have an understeer limit too? How about a tyre slip in braking or acceleration limit?

All apply.

Interesting.
There will be some lateral movement of the tyre perpendicular to its direction of rotation during cornering at any speed.
As all apply, does that mean that the BIB have the right to throw the book at anyone who is cornering in a car?

[flemke]

Furberger said:

vonhosen said:

Kawasicki said:

Is there a oversteer angle limit then? Shouldn't we have an understeer limit too? How about a tyre slip in braking or acceleration limit?

All apply.

Interesting.
There will be some lateral movement of the tyre perpendicular to its direction of rotation during cornering at any speed.
As all apply, does that mean that the BIB have the right to throw the book at anyone who is cornering in a car?

Let's see them ban slip angles. They'd sure have to straighten out the M25.

[flemke]

time2react said:

The public highway is not a playground. If you want to play like a Child go find a sand pit.

And if you want to wear a hairshirt and flail yourself every day, go live in a monastery.

In your world, is one allowed to derive any pleasure from driving?

[vonhosen]

Furberger said:

vonhosen said:

Kawasicki said:

Is there a oversteer angle limit then? Shouldn't we have an understeer limit too? How about a tyre slip in braking or acceleration limit?

All apply.

Interesting.
There will be some lateral movement of the tyre perpendicular to its direction of rotation during cornering at any speed.
As all apply, does that mean that the BIB have the right to throw the book at anyone who is cornering in a car?

But you know that's not what we are talking about, we are talking about normal grip being overcome.

[flemke]

vonhosen said:

Furberger said:

vonhosen said:

Kawasicki said:

Is there a oversteer angle limit then? Shouldn't we have an understeer limit too? How about a tyre slip in braking or acceleration limit?

All apply.

Interesting.
There will be some lateral movement of the tyre perpendicular to its direction of rotation during cornering at any speed.
As all apply, does that mean that the BIB have the right to throw the book at anyone who is cornering in a car?

But you know that's not what we are talking about, we are talking about normal grip being overcome.

It seems the issue is whether the driver induces a slide or skid, or whether the driver is simply caught out by the conditions.
When the driving conditions look dubious, as they have done frequently as of late, I will normally test the grip a few times, if only by waiting for a straight, open bit of road and braking quite hard.
I do that purely as a safety/risk reduction test, yet it would seem to fall within the boundaries of purposeful loss of control as described by several critical posters on this thread.

Is testing for grip illegal? It would be absurd if it were.

[GreenV8S]

flemke said:

It seems the issue is whether the driver induces a slide or skid, or whether the driver is simply caught out by the conditions.

I would say the latter is more likely to be dangerous and possibly suggesting a lack of due care and attention.

[sleep envy]

flemke said:

Soren2 said:

I understand that some might be able to perform this manoeuvre more safely than others. But I'd agree with von that to approach a hazard with the intention of losing traction and grip to achieve nothing more than a car park trick is an action that will always render itself punishable.

Does anyone actually disagree with that? If so why?

We have tried above to articulate why we disagree.

One can accept or reject the argument in favour of speed limits per se, and from there the argument in favour of tiered licences. The unique thing about speed limits is that they represent an unambiguous parameter. There is normally no doubt about what speed a car is doing. We can measure it even without a human being in attendance.

"Drifting" around a quarter of a RAB is not, so far as I know, something that is readily measurable by machine. It requires human recognition and assessment.
If it requires the active participation of a human to identify a drift, and that human is a professional at assessing driving, then why at the same time cannot that professional assess whether the driver has control of the vehicle? That same professional's testimony will be relied on in court in many other situations to determine DWDC, CD, etc. If the professional is qualified to make these judgments, and surely he or she must be, by definition, then why should not the test of how one circumnavigates a RAB be on the basis of control, rather that according to another arbitrary, one-size-fits-all law?

The issue is not the yaw of the vehicle. The issue is control. They are not the same thing.

I'd like to see a response to this from the ney sayers - it's been neatly avoided

[flemke]

GreenV8S said:

flemke said:

It seems the issue is whether the driver induces a slide or skid, or whether the driver is simply caught out by the conditions.

I would say the latter is more likely to be dangerous and possibly suggesting a lack of due care and attention.

So you're not allowed to test for grip, but you're not allowed to lose grip?


Btw, and I don't mean this with any attitude, but the most capable driver I have ever known, a man who is both an instructor of Class 1s and a former world-class racer, was caught out by some black ice and clipped a stone wall - whilst driving at 10 mph.
It can happen even with much due care and attention.

[Pork_n_Beem]

Have you all gone mad !!

If you were entering a RAB and loeb is coming around sideways would you consider filtering in or consider selecting reverse !

I think we have pushed the boundaries enough lets just settle for 90mph on a straight road.

Drifting on a public road....implications for the emergency stop, very messy when your crossed up, what about visibility, massively increases the blind spots when you are looking through the side windows across the passengers side, what lights, they will be facing the wrong direction, especially indicators.....

Guys, i think this one needs more thought

[flemke]

Pork_n_Beem said:

Have you all gone mad !!

What do you think?

Pork_n_Beem said:

If you were entering a RAB and loeb is coming around sideways would you consider filtering in or consider selecting reverse !

I think we have pushed the boundaries enough lets just settle for 90mph on a straight road.

Drifting on a public road....implications for the emergency stop, very messy when your crossed up, what about visibility, massively increases the blind spots when you are looking through the side windows across the passengers side, what lights, they will be facing the wrong direction, especially indicators.....

Guys, i think this one needs more thought

I did not think that anyone was suggesting, or even imagining, that all "drifting" (power oversteer) should be allowed.
Rather, I think the question was whether any drifting might be allowed. It seemed that those who know the law and how the authorities think about such things viewed all intentional and perhaps also all unintentional drifting as an absolute offence.

At some point I raised the question of whether, if the person doing the drifting were Sebastien Loeb, and there were no living or dead things within the vicinity so that it was not physically possible for the drifting car to cause any harm whatsoever, a bit of drifting would ever be allowed.
The answer seemed to be "No - it's all proscribed."

[trackdemon]

As with exceeding the speed limit, I suspect the mantra is 'dont get caught' for you shall be castigated regardless of control and *actual* danger to your surroundings.


Meanwhile, that dozy oik cutting in and out of traffic during a wet rush hour shall always go unhindered because its too difficult to spot him....

[vonhosen]

flemke said:

GreenV8S said:

flemke said:

It seems the issue is whether the driver induces a slide or skid, or whether the driver is simply caught out by the conditions.

I would say the latter is more likely to be dangerous and possibly suggesting a lack of due care and attention.

So you're not allowed to test for grip, but you're not allowed to lose grip?


Btw, and I don't mean this with any attitude, but the most capable driver I have ever known, a man who is both an instructor of Class 1s and a former world-class racer, was caught out by some black ice and clipped a stone wall - whilst driving at 10 mph.
It can happen even with much due care and attention.

And I said, where the conditions are extremely adverse & the evidence of your driving was that you were taking great care but were merely momentarily caught out in quite exceptional circumstances, I wouldn't expect a prosecution.

Where you intentionally induce skids for fun, or where it would be obvious to a reasonable, prudent & competent driver that driving in the manner you were would be likely to result in skids, then you are in play for getting prosecuted.

Anyone can get caught out, but we should all be avoiding getting near grip limits on the road. Just because you can control a drifting vehicle, doesn't mean you should be intentionally exhibiting it on road.

Edited by vonhosen on Friday 18th January 06:49

[Richard C]

vonhosen said:

The reality is that intentionally drifting for amusement on public roundabouts is not acceptable behaviour.

Yes thats the way it is politically nowadays - any form of interest, enjoyment or fun in driving has to be viciously stamped out

[streaky]

T_Pot said:

MrFlibbles said:

T_Pot said:

rackless driving

I'd take that one to court, you've got to have a rack to get the lock on!

thats your opinion, so now you have a rack and opinion lmao

ill get me coat

7db said:

Oh no let's not start that again...

As officers elsewhere are at pains to point out, that not "getting done" - it's a crime prevention measure, not a punishment or an offence.

T_Pot's post is a punishment and no mistake! - Streaky

PS - "drifting", "roundabout" ... there's a certain resonance, just the words "in" and "way" missing - S

[flemke]

vonhosen said:

Where you intentionally induce skids for fun, or where it would be obvious to a reasonable, prudent & competent driver that driving in the manner you were would be likely to result in skids, then you are in play for getting prosecuted.

Anyone can get caught out, but we should all be avoiding getting near grip limits on the road. Just because you can control a drifting vehicle, doesn't mean you should be intentionally exhibiting it on road.

Where do you or the law stand regarding testing for grip by braking hard (when safe to do so) on a questionable surface?

[cmsapms]

time2react said:

The public highway is not a playground. If you want to play like a Child go find a sand pit.

I suspect I'm feeding a troll but........

Are you saying that the vast majority of bicycle use is wrong? After all most cycling is done for leisure/pleasure. What about little boys (and girls) having a kickabout in a quiet cul-de-sac?

You really ought to think through your posts before pressing the Submit button!